The Renku Sessions: Pilgrims' Stride 17

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1. I believe everything posted made a lot of sense.
   However, what about this? what if you typed a catchier post title?
   I ain’t suggesting your information isn’t solid., but suppose you added a
   post title that makes people desire more? I mean The Renku
   Sessions: Pilgrims

2. Tuesday night, eastern US time, is the deadline for submissions. As you can see, the site is not dead at that point. It just means that I stop considering new offers then, make my selection, write my comments and prepare a new posting. I need a day for that.

3. Hello all,
   Did I miss something? John usually cuts off at 9pm Tues. night.
   John?

4. a milky nimbus
   at dusk
   beneath the cherry tree

   Scott Mason

   Garden Path at Giverny
   on the Gallery wall

5. a milky nimbus
   at dusk
   beneath the cherry tree

   –Scott Mason

   beside the pond lies a net
   and tadpoles in a jar

6. sorry typo

   silkworms spin
   a dress for her

7. silkworms spin
   a dres for her

8. a milky nimbus
   at dusk
   beneath the cherry tree

   -Scott Mason

   the pine boughs of Karasaki
   are numb to the spring breeze

   -Patrick Sweeney

9. a milky nimbus
   at dusk
   beneath the cherry tree

   -Scott Mason

   refusing to step on her image of Christ
   a spring breeze has arisen

   -Patrick Sweeney

10. “Lorin,

    I wonder how you discerned I am an American Citizen because I am clearly not.

    Can you discern that I am not?” – Dru

    I was being generous in attributing American citizenship to you, Dru, just as I was being generous in pretending not to notice your sarcasm in:

    “Lorin,
    I am glad that in your mind you see a distinction.”

    … and just as I’m not calling you on your sarcastic tone in your use of ‘discerned’ now.

    (Sarcasm being known as the lowest form of wit, I was embarrassed for you)

    The bottom line is that we disagree on what is a quotation and what isn’t. Leave it at that.

    – Lorin

11. a milky nimbus
    at dusk
    beneath the cherry tree

    changing to the yellow dust
    of the Seed Moon

12. a milky nimbus
    at dusk
    beneath the cherry tree

    changing to yellow dust
    as the Wind Moon conceives life

13. a milky nimbus
    at dusk
    beneath the cherry tree

    changing to yellow dust
    as the Seed Moon spreads life

14. a milky nimbus
    at dusk
    beneath the cherry tree

    changing to yellow dust
    as the Wind Moon spreads life

15. a milky nimbus
    at dusk
    beneath the cherry tree

    -Scott Mason

    the brave warrior’s hair
    combed by the breeze

    -Patrick Sweeney

16. a milky nimbus
    at dusk
    beneath the cherry tree

    –Scott Mason

    string of skyscrapers
    in the last light

17. I initially said that the bottom line is that each is a quote, no matter what the content is. Obviously, what I have said has not been discerned.

18. Lorin,

    I wonder how you discerned I am an American Citizen because I am clearly not.

    Can you discern that I am not?

19. “Could you please tell us what you think the objective of renku might be?”

    I can’t tell you what THE objective of renku might be – there is an array of possible benefits. But I can repeat the advice that Professor Fukuda gave me when I was leading my first international renku session. It seems that I was being very earnest. His advice to me was, “First, it has to be fun. If people enjoy it they will do it again. If they keep doing it they will naturally want to get better at it and they can focus more intensely on the rules at that point.”

    “Some folks might feel they can’t aim if you keep moving the target.”

    Each posting lists the formal requirements for the next verse and I don’t believe I have ever changed any of these after posting them. There is a standing requirement (after verse two) that each new verse shift to a new topic and setting. That is just part of the game. And the game can be complex. Even more than shooting at a moving target, it can be like shooting at a moving target from a moving platform. This is poetry, after all, and it does not seem reasonable to expect everyone to read it (any particular verse) in exactly the same way. I’ve been told that it is helpful when I talk more about what I see as the assets of the verse I’ve selected, including how I see it linking to its predecessor. I will try to do more of this.

    Perhaps it will help if I share a little bit of my weekly process. In order to keep up with the material, I create a document containing the verse to which you are linking at the top and then each verse offered as a link to it, as they come in. I organize the verses by contributor, and then in chronological order of their submission. The name of each poet appears in either green or black ink, the former if they have not yet had a verse included in the renku. I display particularly interesting verses in red ink, to help me focus on a final choice in the short time I have to choose and write commentary for the next posting. When there is some definite reason why a verse cannot be used, I make a note in the right margin about that, mostly so that I won’t have to keep rediscovering it. One of the things that make this complex, for me, is that sometimes the “red” verse and the verse with a fatal flaw are the same verse.

    Some of the most common “fatal flaws” consist of
    1) ignoring the “formal requirements” posted
    2) including material that has a specific (and other) place within a renku – moon, blossom, love, wrong or contradictory season references
    3) including an image that is not actually the required thing, e.g. “mooning” by dropping one’s trousers is not what is looked for in a moon verse
    4) repeating or closely relating to material contained in either the hokku (first verse) or the leap-over verse (the verse preceding the one to which we are currently linking)
    5) other very obvious repetitions of words or images from other verses, especially recent verses
    6) offering material whose image or tone is wrong for the page (section) of the renku – an issue only in the opening and closing sections

    People are, and will continue to be joining us at various stages of the renku. However often I repeat instructions and feedback, there will be people who have missed some of it.

    And there is also the matter of being a poet who has already contributed a verse. This is not in any way a flaw but it does result in a great many “red” verses being passed over. Perhaps you don’t realize that I am not selecting the “best verse” each week. I am trying to select the verse that represents the best available contribution to collaboration. Who is contributing is as much a factor as what. For those of you not yet included, I am looking especially closely for the right moment for your “entrance!”

20. down on the beach she finds
    a shell from her childhood

21. a milky nimbus
    at dusk
    beneath the cherry tree

    – Scott Mason

    when the bell chimes twelve
    he stops chopping wood

22. a milky nimbus
    at dusk
    beneath the cherry tree

    – Scott Mason

    pigeons play ‘chase me’
    in the noon day sun

23. Bu**er it! One of these … < … didn't take, with the result of all that unintended italics! Sorry!

    – Lorin

24. Dru Philippou June 30, 2014 at 8:46 am

    “Lorin,
    I am glad that in your mind you see a distinction.”

    Hmmm, interesting. I don’t actually know how to see a distinction in my mind! I can perceive some distinctions between the ways language is used, though.

    ” Here is a definition of a quote:

    “To repeat or copy out (a group of words from a text or speech), typically with an indication that one is not the original author or speaker.” ” – Dru Philippou

    Yes, that’s a definition of a quote. Above, I’ve quoted you quoting a definition of a quote. 🙂 I could,/i> use ‘direct speech’:

    Dru wrote, ” Here is a definition of a quote…”

    Can you discern a difference between those examples and the following?

    “Let us go then, you and I,
    When the evening is spread out against the sky …” T.S. Eliot

    Can you discern the difference between both of the above quotations and this:

    “I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will faithfully execute the Office of President of the United States, and will to the best of my Ability, preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States.”

    (I give this example because you are clearly a citizen of the USA, so it’ll be something you’re familiar with)

    When is the above a quotation and when is it not? If I should report a (fictional) person’s direct speech, so:

    Harry said, ” When being sworn in, the new USA President quoted the words of the Oath of Office.”

    … wouldn’t you consider there was something a bit odd about what Harry said?

    Jennifer quoted a line from a Lou Reed song, as fits your definition of a quote. But what of Paul’s verse?

    I stumble
    trying to reply
    “I plight thee my troth.”

    –Paul MacNeil

    Would you say that here, Paul is quoting himself quoting a line from a book?

    Let’s revisit the qualifying part of your definition of a quote:

    “. . . typically with an indication that one is not the original author or speaker.”

    It’s a fair enough definition as far as it goes and it seems to me to be indicating what we usually mean when we use the term ‘quotation’. In short definitions, we need to credit intention.

    But as well as for quotations, we can use quotation marks to report direct speech , in fiction as well as factual reportage:

    Then I said to my wife, “Blah blah blah …” When I see him next, I’ll say, “ blah blah blah …”

    Paul, in verse #9, uses direct speech to report something he says or tries to say, and therefore, according to the convention, he uses quotation marks. In an informal sense, we could say he’s quoting himself, but it would be incorrect to say that he’s quoting himself quoting from somewhere or someone, because there are different values given to different acts of language and we generally recognise this and distinguish between them. We might say that Paul uses direct speech to report his recitation of the marriage vow.

    – Lorin

25. Just for fun…

    a milky nimbus
    at dusk
    beneath the cherry tree

    –Scott Mason

    incessant cheeps
    from the wheel well

26. Hi John,

    Could you please tell us what you think the objective of renku might be? Some folks might feel they can’t aim if you keep moving the target.

    Thanks,
    Alice

27. Here is a definition of performative utterances:

    Performative utterances (or performatives) are defined in the speech acts theory (part of the philosophy of language) as sentences which are not only passively describing a given reality, but they are changing the (social) reality they are describing.

    here is the wikipedia source where I obtained this information – http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Performative_utterance

    Dru, shouldn’t you have provided the source for your definition ?

28. Here is a definition of a quote:

    “To repeat or copy out (a group of words from a text or speech), typically with an indication that one is not the original author or speaker.”

29. Lorin,
    I am glad that in your mind you see a distinction.

30. in the fresh wrack line
    a friendship bracelet

31. a milky nimbus
    at dusk
    beneath the cherry tree

    galloping fast
    into spring mists

32. a milky nimbus
    at dusk
    beneath the cherry tree

    soup of the day
    enhanced by fresh wakame

33. a milky nimbus
    at dusk
    beneath the cherry tree

    cows at the gate
    knee-deep in fiddleheads

34. a milky nimbus
    at dusk
    beneath the cherry tree

    fledglings take off
    from the derelict house

35. a milky nimbus
    at dusk
    beneath the cherry tree

    restless colts
    flicking off flies

36. To me it’s not a close call at all. To say “I plight thee my troth” and verse 16 (a line from a work by a known author ) are both ‘quotes/ quotations’ without making any distinction between them seems … well, misinformed about the English language, at least. Paul’s verse doesn’t contain a quotation as such but a performative utterance which is recited during a ritual. Jennifer’s verse is a direct quotation from the work of a known author. They are nicely distinguished in presentation here by the use of quotation marks in the first and the use of italics in the latter.

    Yes, it’s the convention in EL punctuation that direct speech needs to be placed within what we call quotation marks, but that doesn’t make direct speech a quotation!

    And are we quoting when we use a word or phrase from a kigo list?!

    – Lorin

37. So elegantly put, John.

38. “Is not having two quotes a repetition of sorts. Why in this instance is it acceptable? Why is a quote repetition allowed when other sorts of repetitions are not allowed.”

    Dru (and everyone),

    How to explain this? Perfection is not at the top of my priorities. Since this is, in part, an educational exercise, I have been sticking pretty closely to the rules but there have been and probably will be some potential exceptions, for two main reasons. One of them is that I have confined myself to selecting something from among the verses that are offered, making a very minimum of alterations. The other is that the rules, in my view, provide the background against which we work but a renku that does absolutely nothing but follow the rules is likely to be a dull affair.

    Robert Frost is said to have described the writing of free verse poetry as like playing tennis without a net. I think something like this could be said of writing renku with a “free” approach. I wouldn’t recommend it. But what you are asking about is not like having no net. It’s more like an argument about whether a ball was inside or outside of the line. I have called it in. You are calling it out. I acknowledge that it’s a close call. And that’s part of what makes the game exciting.

39. Inspired by Lorin:

    how to stop
    the spinning pinwheel of death

    mac users won’t need to google it : )

40. let’s step carefully
    don’t disturb the snails rut

41. in the top-floor apartment
    silkworms for sale

42. Just to clarify. This is not a direct quote, but something I made up:

    “Oh, Earth, wait for me,”
    says the East wind

43. “Oh, Earth, wait for me,”
    says the east wind

44. Typo: Should be telephoto lens.

45. oh, earth, wait for me
    says the east wind

46. without a skylark
    the sky is nothing

47. pulling in a frog
    with a telephoto lense

    pulling in a spring day
    with a telephoto lense

    pulling in spring clouds
    with a telephoto lense

    pulling in spring thunder
    with a telephoto lense

48. mining the data
    of dandelion clocks

49. Buddha’s birthday passes
    without observation

50. John,
    Further to my question. Is not having two quotes a repetition of sorts. Why in this instance is it acceptable? Why is a quote repetition allowed when other sorts of repetitions are not allowed.

51. spring thunder shivers
    the perennial ryegrass

52. a milky nimbus
    at dusk
    beneath the cherry tree
    –Scott Mason

    yellow petals
    trail the riverside

53. during the rising of shad
    voices of bony discourse

54. east wind stirring the leaves
    in my teacup

55. wisteria curls around
    the white picket fence

56. a milky nimbus
    at dusk
    beneath the cherry tree
    –Scott Mason

    flecks of sea foam
    on the beachcombers’ hats

    – Lorin Ford

57. a milky nimbus
    at dusk
    beneath the cherry tree
    –Scott Mason

    who’s that wearing
    a pinwheel on his hat?

    😉

    – Lorin Ford

58. the ocean rolls around
    inside the welk

59. “a cool white moon”
    replied the songstress
    to her silent lover again

    Sorry, just having some silly fun.

60. Dru: “Question: I am wondering if it’s permissible to introduce another quote.”

    We need to wait quite a while and possibly forgo any further use of quotation marks or quoted material from this point forward. This is not so much a matter of hard rules as it is of general principles and personal taste (mine, as the selector of verses). There are ways of getting at the same thing through other means. I’ve mentioned that we should hold off on naming a color, for instance, but this does not preclude us from using a colorful image without a named color. Grass, for instance, or the planet Mars. The same principle would apply to “quotes.” It might be fun, later in our renku, to see if someone can invoke an obvious set of words without actually quoting them. But even that will need to wait until well into the second half of the renku.

61. okay I suppose three moons is too much 🙂

62. a milky nimbus
    at dusk
    beneath the cherry tree

    – Scott Mason

    whilst I bask in the light
    of the hazy moon

63. a lioness pulls down
    the youngest foal

64. snippets of wild mint
    for our evening tea

65. Question: I am wondering if it’s permissible to introduce another quote. We have two already and I wonder if this is not a repetition. If the rules are that we don’t repeat, then I wonder why repeating in the form of quotes is permissible. I understand that the themes may be different etc.

    I stumble
    trying to reply
    “I plight thee my troth.”

    sugar plum fairy came
    and hit the streets…

66. a kite soars
    into spring winds

67. into the spring wind
    kite after kite

    kite after kite
    into spring winds

68. a milky nimbus
    at dusk
    beneath the cherry tree

    – Scott Mason

    buttering pinwheel sandwiches
    for the race day picnic

69. a milky nimbus
    at dusk
    beneath the cherry tree

    –Scott Mason

    saint and sinner
    at one in the blossom cool

    – Lorin Ford

70. a milky nimbus
    at dusk
    beneath the cherry tree

    –Scott Mason

    both saint and sinner
    smile through the blossom cool

    – Lorin Ford

71. a milky nimbus
    at dusk
    beneath the cherry tree

    –Scott Mason

    both saint and sinner
    endure the blossom cool

    – Lorin Ford

    – Lorin

72. another flock
    of spring birders

73. This is just a ‘heads up’: there is an error in translation in the Higginson & Kondo kigo list we’re using as reference, ‘The Five Hundred Essential Japanese Season Words’. It’s the first entry under

    ‘SPRING–ANIMALS’
    colt, pony (wakagoma, late spring).

    Whatever else they were knowledgeable about, it wasn’t horses.

    Clearly, the Japanese reference is to young horses. In English this can be ‘foal’ for very young and ‘colt’ or ‘filly’ for a young horse past the foal stage.

    What it can’t be in English is ‘pony’, because pony doesn’t refer to a horse’s relative youth or age but to its size. A pony is a small horse, not a young horse.

    – Lorin

    Whatever else Higginson and Kondo were knowledgeable about, it wasn’t horses.

74. a milky nimbus
    at dusk
    beneath the cherry tree

    -Scott Mason

    in the lee of the pampas
    a late lamb is born

75. a milky nimbus
    at dusk
    beneath the cherry tree

    – Scott Mason

    palamino full tilt
    into the spring wind

76. a milky nimbus
    at dusk
    beneath the cherry tree

    -Scott Mason

    with a breeze from kanji land
    three days old

    -Patrick Sweeney

77. colt runs first practice
    around the racetrack

78. the hazy moon hangs
    low over the grave

79. sheets snap all day
    in the spring wind

    sheets roused
    by a spring wind

    panties on clothesline
    buoyed by a spring wind

80. a milky nimbus
    at dusk
    beneath the cherry tree

    Scott Mason

    along mountain trails
    on my sure footed pony

81. celebrity models flaunt
    their white mustaches

82. today’s find
    the eggshells of skylarks

    Btw, clever how ‘milky’ got by ; )

83. children surround a fledgling
    they find on the beach

84. colt is brushed
    by the groom

85. spring winds bring
    more migrant workers

86. spring wind brings
    more migrants

    or:

    spring wind brings
    more migrant workers

87. arms and legs
    on the pollywogs

88. spring wind brings
    more migrant children

89. under spring clouds
    migrants cross the border

90. the east wind brings
    more migrants over the border

91. migrants cross the border
    in the shimmering heat

    immigrants cross the border
    in the shimmering heat

92. they circle the swing
    daring her to jump

93. on pilgrimage to
    empty life’s suitcase

94. a milky nimbus
    at dusk
    beneath the cherry tree

    Scott Mason

    serene in old pajamas
    sipping Lipton tea

95. Dear Old Pajamas –

    I’ve been out of town and didn’t get to see the comments on Pilgrims Stride 16 until now. Since you are a prolific and very good haikuist, your comment carries weight, and I would have hoped that you might have gotten a response from the guide (sabaki) – though, I suppose, ignoring your comment is a response itself.

    However, in answer to others’ questions such as “what was the link” or “why was a verse chosen,” here are some of the replies (take your pick):

    ————————————————————————————————
    As a refresher, your comment was (and it is spot on):

    Folks

    I’m glad you are–seemingly– enjoying what you’re doing, but really, using Reed’s words as a submission and then to have it selected as a legitimate piece of the game is outrageous. If there is precedent relative to renku in Japanese society, I decline to exploit it…pajamas

    P.S. Embarrassing is it not, those of us who think we are channeling Japan itself…
    ————————————————————————————————

    • I could repeat what I say every time about this. But I’ll presume you and other participating poets remember all that.
    • Questioning the linking is a little like asking a comedian to explain a joke. Or, even more, like asking those who laughed to explain why they laughed.
    • Linkage, however, is in the eye of the beholder to some degree.
    • I will have to take what I consider the best of what is offered, even if it results in some minor flaws.
    • The ONLY thing that gave me some second thoughts about it was its brevity. Emphasis added.
    • As to why I chose this verse over others, that’s a more complex matter.
    • do not instruct the sabaki.

96. a milky nimbus

    at dusk

    beneath the cherry tree

    –Scott Mason

    another route
    for combing beaches

    -Alan Summers

97. Please do, Terri. You’ve contributed many good offers!

98. haven’t had a “winner” yet, but guess I’ll still play. 🙂 Be back later.

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