The Renku Sessions: 12 Tones – Musical Chairs, Week 10
Welcome to THF’s Renku Sessions. I’m Lorin Ford, acting as sabaki/ guide for this renku.
***
The 9th verses: frogs and frolics
***
Musical Chairs – a Junicho Renku
musical chairs
a handful
of hot chestnuts
– Keith Evetts
the one left standing
chats up the scarecrow
– Clysta
a road sign
points in the direction
of the Monument
– John Daleiden
are we
there yet?
– Curt Linderman
winter moon
dripping from
the shelter tent
– Fatma Zohra Habis
a warm cup of tea
for the newcomer
– Hla Yin Mon
ready
with a love potion
just in case
– Laurie Greer
first spring gust
and the silk robe opens
– princess k
evening star
just in time for
the frogs frogs frogs
– Orense
and/or
a kite frolics
this way
and that
– Rob Barkan
****************************
Last week, I decided to ask Orense, the author of one of the verses on last week’s short list, to write some more verses ending with “the frogs frogs frogs”, the last line of his/her two-line verse linking to Laurie Greer’s ‘love’ verse. I really liked the onomatopoeia of the repeated ‘frogs’ and of course ‘frogs’ is a well-known seasonal reference for Spring, so would link well to princess k’s verse. Orense complied with my request and, as you can see, one of the verses she/he submitted has been chosen for our 9th verse.
I realise that having an extra verse might be unusual, but there was nothing unfair about my selection of this verse. There would be the usual call to everyone for verses linking to princess’s verse 8 and, as usual, a verse would be selected. And so we have two 9th verses. Call them verse 9a and verse 9b, if you like. When all is said and done, we’ll simply have 13 verses in this renku instead of 12.
Both of these verses, Orense’s and Rob’s, are, in my view, excellent Spring verses that link well to princess’s verse.
***
Our 10th verse will be a 2-line verse, non-seasonal (think of all the things you see and do and hear and taste and touch etc. all year around!) You may link to either or both of the 9th selected verses. Do enjoy writing and posting your verses.
***
I will not be writing a commentary/ commentaries on the selected verses this week nor will I be posting a short list. I’m worn out. This is due to the exhausting verbosity and unnecessary postings from one person that I’ve had to attempt to deal with. Unsuccessfully, I’m sorry to say. There must be something that can be done about this kind of behaviour.
*****
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Comments (180)
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my comment #3 these are my observations/and thoughts/not meant to be a criticism.
This renku journey so far, for me, has been a unique one.
i found it interesting that in both love verses….(selected by Lorin)
do not have a visible partner, presently mentioned.
In Laurie’s
ready
with a love potion
just in case
– Laurie Greer
we have someone ready and prepared to have a ‘love happening’. we don’t know how it resolves….so this gives it that needed openness to link and shift. (though, it left me a little confused….if this is a beginning love verse…..why, if a young person….. would have a need for a potion of any kind?)
in princess k’s
first spring gust
and the silk robe opens——– princess k
no person or persons are actually mentioned….one would have to use imagination to see, one or two people in the scene.
(it could be just a robe hanging from a clothes line.)
as an aside…..
as a psychologist, I wonder if this, (disassociation/disconnection) is a result of the covid lockdown, our general emphasis of connection via computer, or if anything happens to our minds from years of renku writing about seasons, we aren’t currently experiencing. Have people developed a phobia to the touch of people??????
“my comment #3 these are my observations/and thoughts/not meant to be a criticism.” – Wendy
ok, Wendy, but they do seem to be a rather confused critique. – Lorin
“ready
with a love potion
just in case
– Laurie Greer
“we have someone ready and prepared to have a ‘love happening’. we don’t know how it resolves….so this gives it that needed openness to link and shift. (though, it left me a little confused….if this is a beginning love verse…..why, if a young person….. would have a need for a potion of any kind?) ” – Wendy
Bot nobody has said that the person with the ‘love potion’ is young, have they? And this is not a novel or even a story in verse: someone with a ‘love potion’ has an apparent intent to use it, we might reasonably infer. Someone has ‘love’ on their mind. That’s enough for a first (introductory) ‘love’ verse. To me, a clever and determined woman ‘speaker’ is implied. I like the humour. – Lorin
“in princess k’s
first spring gust
and the silk robe opens——– princess k
“no person or persons are actually mentioned….one would have to use imagination to see, one or two people in the scene.
(it could be just a robe hanging from a clothes line.)” – Wendy
—
Yes, one does need to use imagination when anything is implied rather than stated outright. Is there a rule that a person or persons should be mentioned? (no., there isn’t.)
Someone (the ‘speaker of the words’, the narrator) sees. The reader, reading, sees and infers. That’s enough. If you, Wendy, as reader, know this verse is a ‘love’ verse yet see the robe hanging on a clothes line…well, that’s your reading of the verse.. It’s not mine.
I have two readings: I feel the spring gust opening the robe and exposing the front part of my body and I see the same thing happening to a woman. We read, we infer, we ‘experience’ in our minds whatever is happening. That’s what reading is about. – Lorin
“as an aside…..
as a psychologist, I wonder if this, (disassociation/disconnection) is a result of the covid lockdown, our general emphasis of connection via computer, or if anything happens to our minds from years of renku writing about seasons, we aren’t currently experiencing. Have people developed a phobia to the touch of people?????? ” – Wendy
As a reader, I must say that I find it difficult to imagine you as a qualified, professional psychologist, Wendy.
There is no disassociation or disconnection implied in princess’s verse, as far as I can tell. As for your general musings re COVID lock-downs, connections via computer (and I might add, wars in Europe, USA elections (Yikes!), climate change, getting older . . . ) no doubt we’re all affected.
“As a reader, I must say that I find it difficult to imagine you as a qualified, professional psychologist, Wendy.” — lorin ford
the above is a personal and insulting attack
against another forum member and clearly
against the foundation rules. you should be
ashamed for speaking to anyone this way.
you should apologize to wendy.
Sabaki Lorin, Rob is speaking reason. We should all be held accountable for what we post on the renku sessions. Our words must not be unkind. Ultimately, everyone must be subject to the foundation rules.
Madeleine, why are you so certain that Ron is speaking reason? Certainly I agree with you that we should all be accountable for what we post here. Is Ron accountable? Are you accountable?
If you, Madelaine, told me you were a psychologist, I would doubt it, just as I doubt that Wendy is. There is nothing abusive in doubting such a claim.
Think about it. What am I accountable for in this instance? What is Rob accountable for? What are you accountable for?
Rob, think about what Lorin is saying. To me it is not an insult nor is it unreasonable. Choosing this moment to critique Lorin’s selection of verses, where she was under attack, where she just got insulted and disrespected is showing a glaring unawareness of human emotions. One would think a psychologist would know better. And Wendy saying she was confused by the choice of verses is a critique.
By the way Wendy saying that my verse bears a similarity with another verse can be construed as implying plagiarism or plain unoriginal thinking if one wants to be kind. That also is being unaware of the implications of her words if that is not her intention.
Ok, so Lorin is not a diplomat. She shouldn’t have to be. She wasn’t invited for her diplomatic skills but for her knowledge and experience of renku. Can we all stop acting like a bunch of snowflakes?
If there is something shameful here it is the mob mentality at work.
p.s. Madeleine, why are you piling on? Do you want the renku to burn?
Rob, you declare that my response to Wendy’s
” as an aside…..
as a psychologist, I wonder if . . . ”
is “is a personal and insulting attack
against another forum member and clearly
against the foundation rules. ”
I’m not a bad reader. As a reader, I find it hard to believe that Wendy is a psychologist as she has declared she is. My expression of my doubt to that Wendy’s claim to be a psychologist is not an attack of any kind.
You are angry and abusive. You have no right to attack me because you think I’ve attacked someone, anyone.
Prove to me that Wendy is a psychologist, as she has stated she is .
Wendy
my Comment #2
i see a theme shared between v9a and v9b
Communication and Visibility
v9a
evening star
just in time for
the frogs frogs frogs
– Orense
v 9a…..as a human, i may hear the frogs, but not see them, or understand exactly what they are saying.
verses v9b:
a kite frolics
this way
and that–——— Rob Barkan
i see the kite like a calligraphy pen (as Laurie Greer also sees) or brush,
writing silently in the air. i may not be able to hear it and i may not be able to track what it has said….as the ink is invisible and the tracks disappear….i can only follow its move forward as it pivots. (like a renku)
so….i believe, Lorin made an interesting sound and wise, creative decision to pin them side by side in this renku!
……v9a…………………………………………………………v9b
evening star…………………………………a kite frolics
just in time for……………………………………….this way
the frogs frogs frogs…………………and that
Orense…………………………………………..rob barkan
my comment #1
one of my favourite poems about frogs:
Voices of frogs
As if to accompany
All those stars
Eleanor Wolff
reminds me of of our # 9a chosen by Lorin Ford, our sabaki of Musical Chairs Renku, and composed by Orense :
evening star
just in time for
the frogs frogs frogs ——– Orense
Ah, I think I get it now, Wendy. It’s just a misreading, on your part. (Don’t feel embarrassed: this can happen to anyone, and I’m sorry if I’ve confused you.)
“#1 If i understand what you are saying,
you see that my offer(s) below link
to princess k’s verse…. ” – Wendy
No.
Go back to week 9, where princess’s verse 8 was selected:
https://thehaikufoundation.org/the-renku-sessions-12-tones-musical-chairs-week-9/
first spring gust
and the silk robe opens
– princess k
You’ll see that I included a short list of 5 verses that I considered would’ve been contenders for verse 8 if I hadn’t selected princess’s verse (the 8th verse) . One of those verses was your verse
” the spring wind sweeps /our sweet nothings away” – Wendy C. Bialek
Another of those verses was Orense’s
“young lovers stargazing/ with the frogs frogs frogs ” – Orense
I really liked that iteration of ‘frogs’ in the 3rd line, so I asked Orense if she would write a few more verses (this time, 3-line spring verses) each of which ended with “frogs frogs frogs’, for my consideration for the next verse in the renku, verse 9. Orense complied and came up with a few, one of which I selected.
However, I thought it might be a bit unfair should any of the verses that Orense came up with turned out to be the verse I selected, so as well as calling for Orense to write up a few verses ending with “frog frog frog” (& linking to princess’s verse) I would also call out to all for spring verses linking to princess’s verse. I did explain what I was doing (not well enough, I think now) and called out for anyone to submit verses to link to princess’s verse. One of these would be selected.
I thought we might be able to have two 3-line verses linking to princess’s verse. I recall discussing this with you, Wendy. I tried to have the layout something like:
first spring gust
and the silk robe opens
– princess k (verse 8)
a 3-line spring verse a 3-line spring verse
by Orense that ended selected from verses by
with frogs frogs frogs any current participant
– Orense (verse 9a) – Rob (verse 9b)
(Anyone/ everyone could write 3-line verses linking to princess’s and I would select one, as usual)
As it turned out, I selected Rob’s ‘kite verse’ from the “general call-out”.
So we have 2 verse 9s. That would’ve been ok if the layout I’d hoped for (and you approved of, too, and were quite interested in it all)
But as we see and know, it didn’t work. I certainly realise I made a mistake. As sabaki, I could have simply asked Orense for a few verses ending in the 3rd line ” frogs frogs frogs” (from the previous week’s shortlist) and select one of them if I liked it enough. But I didn’t do that.
Well, I ballsed it up as far as presentation goes. I can’t deny that. Such is life, though and I think the a old adage ” A man who cannot make a mistake cannot make anything” applies to we women, too.
There will 13 verses in our 12 tone renku. It would look better if princess’s verse could’ve been centered and verses 9 and 9b be placed in the way you approved of., and perhaps the whole renku centered, too. (I’d have to see it to know) But such is life!
—
re the misunderstandings: (both yours and mine)
#1 If i understand what you are saying,
you see that my offer(s) below link
to princess k’s verse….
If I understand now, then I need to tell you that any verses offers that were intended to link to princess k’s verse would’ve been too late once Orenses’s and Rob’s verses had been selected.
:
Lorin (in regards to your post below)
I have two responses:
#1 If i understand what you are saying,
you see that my offer(s) below link
to princess k’s verse….
i can imagine many ways it can link…so i would agree with you here. . and i admit, they were posted impulsively without my considering the one above it…my blunder of committing
the sin of uchikoshi!
Thank you, Lorin, for pointing this out to me…..so please consider my wish to withdraw them.
#2 Lorin, I am not experiencing any confliction regarding your fine, creative decisions for any of your verse selections for this renku….don’t know how you came to that assumption.
“[ Lorin Ford
January 22, 2025 at 3:39 am
Wendy, both of those verses link to princess’s verse. Not to each other.
It’s the best I could do. The alternative would have been to cancel either Orense’s verse or
Rob’ s. ( didn’t want to do that.)
But I thought you’d understood what was happening, In fact I thought you’d approved.
I’m truly surprised at your two posts here:
“9a or 9b
can’t make heads
or tails of this ”
—
“9a and 9b
can’t make heads
or tails of this”
(I’m assuming that you mean “I can’t make heads or tails of this” and not the absurd “9a or 9b can’t make heads or tails …” ]”
Lorin (in regards to the posts i reproduced below in this post),
So sorry to hear you may be suffering from the some of the same afflictions that affect “our” leader….and that made you believe i was making a comment directly to you…..when i wasn’t…..it was an actual
offer for the renku.
“Wendy C. Bialek
January 19, 2025 at 10:26 pm
9a and 9b
can’t make heads
or tails of this”
and……(lorin’s response:)
“Lorin Ford
January 21, 2025 at 2:15 am
Of course you can make sense of it, Wendy. You did make sense of it earlier on.
There are two verse nines:
evening star
just in time for
the frogs frogs frogs
– Orense
and/or
a kite frolics
this way
and that
– Rob Barkan “
To Our Renku Community, I hope that John Stevenson’s Renku Sessions, a great service to the community, will continue to thrive and bring joy to poetry lovers all around the world.
To the Renku Community and Sabaki John Stevenson,
I am sorry for the times that I have offended and disappointed my fellow poets, my past and present sabaki and those who come to read poetry. My excessive and thoughtless commentary has done nothing but cause havoc, especially to the present renku session which deserves so much better. I am very sorry for my recent, unkind words that I directed towards Sabaki Lorin.
Orense, I appreciate your voice of reason. I am sorry that I wasn’t able to stop my commentary when asked by Sabaki Lorin and that I brought disharmony when you kindly invited me back to share poetry. I apologize for the times that I made Sabaki Lorin’s leadership and guidance of the Musical Chairs’ Renku Session more difficult. I thank you, Orense, from the bottom of my heart, for bringing peace to the table.
Sabaki Lorin, I apologize for not stopping the commentary when you asked. I apologize for offending you by my uncaring words during this renku session and I am very sorry for my offensive and disparaging words I directed towards you recently.
Madeleine, we all may regret actions influenced by hurt feelings. In the course of the renku you and Lorin hurt each other’s feelings. It happens, we are human and faillible. But then again it is our humanity including our flaws that makes poetry. Moving forward let’s focus on what unites us instead on what divides. And let’s all adhere to the three comment rule on other entries. I will have to watch myself too:)
Thank you, Orense. :)
“A cap of 3 comments a week would be an intelligent idea (LF), but Madeleine would not like it.” Nor would LF.
I don’t remember either of the 2 previous sabaki commenting on offered verses. Not an absolute no-no, but a platform speaker is unwise to to make more than 3 succinct responses to hecklers.
Listen, you smelly fishwives, you drunken hussies, you bar-room brawlers, you squabbling washerwomen ; give it a rest !
I speak, not as Tumbleweed Dick, the juvenile pretender : but – like Jumping Jack, sprung out of his box – the Great Ricardo Dix, Secretary to the Muses, and would-be Renga Grandmaster these last 25 years.
I have made pilgrimage to Rawtenstall,
to the electrifying John Carley (may Lux Eterna) ; to Shalford, to the patient, much-weary with travel David Cobb (R I P) ; I have been co-respondent with the late Blessèd Jane, Grafin auf & zu von Reicholdshausen,
Chatelaine of Schloss Guadallla (Don’t over-egg it -Daisy) ; and though not Irish, I have kissed the Blarney Stone :
Listen, you disgusting pair of petty haijinii – and all chipping in as mediator
or partisan……(pause for refreschment – reaches for two pint jar.
Don’t go away! – more on vv9a/b &10 will eventually emerge)
Ricardo
Dick, I am deeply sorry and humbled that I have caused you, a peaceable man and my peace loving fellow poets this disharmony. I have brought you all unwittingly into my petty argument, so very unworthy of a dedicated poetess of renku. I humbly stand corrected. I understand the reason for your comments…You have only wanted to continue posting your excellent and inspiring verses these past weeks. I am sorry that my lack of restraint on my commentary has caused havoc to you, Sabaki Lorin, and fellow poets…I have dragged you all in, all of you who wanted only to put a stop to this mayhem and truly only want to continue to share your remarkable poems..poems that bring refreshment and delight to our community. I whole heartedly agree with your three caps maxim on commentary…I will gladly adhere to it. I have been brought to my knees in the chaos of my doing…this smelly fishwife (myself) aptly named in this case. I should have apologized sooner… I began to work on apologies to all of you, yesterday afternoon. From the depth of my heart I apologize to you Dick, Sabaki Lorin, John Stevenson and the Renku Session Community and my fellow poets, all of whom I have greatly disappointed.
What a big man you are Ricardo, standing up to the great power that is Lorin! (and me? I’m honored I guess). You’ll have to wait in line though, by the way using her initials is a real power move.
Oh great one! your passion and history in the world of renga are undeniable, but this tirade reeks more of self-indulgence than constructive critique. Personally I’d be ashamed to throw these names around and use them for this…The insults and grandstanding do nothing to help get your point across. Which is what exactly? That sabaki should shut up? That’s hilarious.
I felt compelled to “chip in” precisely because your delightful message is an prime example of what happens when the sabaki’s authority is undermined and then the poetry gets lost. Also call me old fashioned but I don’t like to see a group ganging up against an individual. Whereas you, Oh Wise One, saw the raging fire and thought “Hmm let me pour some gasoline on this, that sounds like a good idea”.
Please explain how your intervention or even your previous post (chipping in before I chipped in) is any different from my so called “mediation” except for the needless sexist insults. Perhaps it is fine for the Secretary of the Muses to speak but not for little old me. :)
In conclusion spare me the theatrics and verbal abuse, and please keep that Petitt Dick energy far away from me… I’m somewhat sorry for the last joke but it was right there and I couldn’t help myself ;)(not for the rest though)
9a
an oligarch’s jumping jacks poke
through a zipped-locked pouch
9a
what would
Hiroaki Sato say ?
9a:
adding some spit
to the rude client’s coffee
hopping mad
after stubbing my toe
he croaks
before I can kiss him
9b:
straightening up
another fine mess
parts of me hang out
of the g-string
a kite frolics
this way
and that
– Rob Barkan
talk and more talks
of a ceasefire
let it be
all roads lead to Rome
old dog still
chasing his tail
a kite frolics
this way
and that
– Rob Barkan
*
gauging the cat’s mood
by the swish of her tail
*
the cat trains her person
with a swish of her tail
*
a kitten pounces
on her elder’s swishing tail
*
a kitten’s first and last pounce
on her elder’s swishing tail
*
cats’ tails swishing
outside the mouse hole
*
koi carp and i
see eye to eye
bubbles go plop!
on the surface
a beetle creates ripples
in my reflection
a t a e j t
h n v u h
k i d e s e
i s n t
t t i f
e w h n i r
a a g n o
f y t g
r s t s
o t i
l a m f
i r e r
c o
s f g
o s
r
f
r
o
g
s
Will this work? suspense….
nope…
Nevermind the technical limitations seem insurmountable lol.
Lorin, am I right to understand that originally your vision was to have both verses side by side with the next verse linking to both? Since technically it seems difficult to realise this creative vision I wonder if two verses might be more disruptive than helpful to the renku’s effect. Know that if you wish to remove my verse from the sequence I would not take offense as the way I understand it you included it with a different layout in mind. :)
I feel the need to clarify that I say this with the goal of perhaps making your job easier :)
Orense, I don’t want to remove your verse (or Rob’s) They are good. they have been selected and they stay.
The next verse will be a non-seasonal, 2 line verse that links to either yours or Rob’s verse. Anyone can submit to either or both. It will be my hard job to choose which verse (one verse), within those boundaries, it will be.
After this yet-to-be-selected 2-line verse is in place, there will be another non-seasonal verse of 3 lines.
Ah I get it now, and/or was throwing me off :)
“Lorin, am I right to understand that originally your vision was to have both verses side by side with the next verse linking to both?” – Orense
Yes, the 2 verses side by side, but people would choose which of the two verses they would link to link to. The idea was that the next verse would link to either of those two verses (not both at the same time: that would be too hard) . But if anyone wanted to link (separately) to both verses, that was ok , too.
Yes. It was up to the individual which verse/ verses she/he would link to. But no-one was expected to link to both verses at the same time.
The side-by-side verses didn’t happen/ couldn’t have happened under the circumstances , so I improvised. I’m really not very good with the technical things, and I didn’t want to ask John for help (considering his recent eye surgery, something that I, too, will be having in the not-too-distant future… Hearing , sight… all sorts of things pile up as we age. It’s well to remember that none of us gets out of this world alive. )
I think I have the verses linking ok, though. See what you think when you’ve read it. I’ll be truly interested in your viewpoints. (You remind me of a French woman (Laurette) who I went to university with, here in Australia, when I was a young single mother. We got on well. ( I’ve never met a French man.)
“I wonder if two verses might be more disruptive than helpful to the renku’s effect” – Orense
Well, perhaps, but sometimes we have to take chances. I couldn’t withdraw it, really. That wouId’ve only ended in chaos and disappointment. I think the idea was worth a go. Let me know what you think after you’ve read it.
I’ve just now written up the intro to the next verse and sent it to John S. (I previously haven’t done that until until tomorrow (that’s Tuesday for me – tonight, now, is Monday night in Australia) I will be hitting the sack soon. But I have an accumulation of ‘health’ appointments tomorrow …things pile up! …so I’ve sent it off to John tonight. He’s the one who is good at the maths. You will see it at its usual time for you. I will see it on Friday 24th, AEST.
So, what it comes down to is that I’ve done a sort of “workaround”. Perfection, it’s certainly not, but such is life. I think it’s not too bad. In fact, pretty good, under the circumstances, though not perfect. (I’ve seen worse!) I’m sort of happy with it. I’ll be interested how you and others might respond to it.
However, what’s very clear to me is that, out of the blue, we have a beaut new verse to link to for the next, 3 line , non-seasonal verse. :-) Luck is with us.
Happy linking to the new verse to All! :-)
um. I may have stuffed up in regard to my choice of that verse, in one sense, Orense.
I’ll be able to see what people here think about it when our coming renku week begins. I appreciate your intelligence as well as your support.
These past couple of weeks have been extremely stressful for me, as I know you understand.
The verbal abuse was unprecedented.
I don’t think it was a mistake. You did not know the technical side of things would not allow for it.
Being safe isn’t what poetry is about for me. I really like the idea and I’m keeping it tucked away in a corner of my mind for the future. I personally like the idea of a following verse that would link to both previous verses which is admittedly harder but not impossible. This is also sparking ideas for me and a new perspective on layouts playing with multiple links.
In a nutshell I still think it is a great idea and a risk worth taking. It couldn’t come into fruition and you improvised. Not the end of the world:)
I am sorry you are dealing with both literal and figurative heat… I am hopeful that things will get better and less stressful for you. Perhaps having a moderator or two could take some of the burden of having to do it all off your hands. Freeing you up to focus on the poetry without any worries. Just a thought:)
9a and 9b
can’t make heads
or tails of this
Of course you can make sense of it, Wendy. You did make sense of it earlier on.
There are two verse nines:
evening star
just in time for
the frogs frogs frogs
– Orense
and/or
a kite frolics
this way
and that
– Rob Barkan
9a or 9b
can’t make heads
or tails of this
Wendy, both of those verses link to princess’s verse. Not to each other.
It’s the best I could do. The alternative would have been to cancel either Orense’s verse or
Rob’ s. ( didn’t want to do that.)
But I thought you’d understood what was happening, In fact I thought you’d approved.
I’m truly surprised at your two posts here:
“9a or 9b
can’t make heads
or tails of this ”
—
“9a and 9b
can’t make heads
or tails of this”
(I’m assuming that you mean “I can’t make heads or tails of this” and not the absurd “9a or 9b can’t make heads or tails …”
evening star
just in time for
the frogs frogs frogs
Orense
waiters in the diner
hop to it
early morning throwing
seed out for the birds
greeting the morning
with a cup of tea
polka dots
ladybirds on the window
at the gallery
hushed reverence
enjoying a coffee
watching shoppers go by
another lively discussion
at the book club
junior football
kicks off sunday mornings
feelings of frustration
watching the news
bemused by mother goose
as she saunters by
in the village cars
give geese a wide berth
at the bus stop
talking about the weather
a kite frolics
this way
and that – Rob Barkan
campfire sparks
wheel into the darkness
evening star
just in time for
the frogs frogs frogs – Orence
somewhere in the crowd
another crazy ring-tone
” January 18, 2025 at 9:41 am
Lorin, you made quite a blunder in assuming Diana’s first language…and then not to acknowledge it but to justify your mistake by two groundless and insulting excuses. …” Madeleine
No, I didn’t blunder. I assumed what turned out to be true: her first language is one of the USA English dialects. A case of Ye Olde “divided by a common language”. I did notice, though, that Diana thought I may have been making assumptions because of her Chinese surname. I wasn’t. I hope she understands that.
You, though, Madeleine, should think a bit before you accuse anyone of anything that you don’t have proof of. But I can see that you enjoy writing things like this:
“Lorin, you made quite a blunder in assuming Diana’s first language…and then not to acknowledge it but to justify your mistake by two groundless and insulting excuses. …”
How dare you declare such! The only truth is that your words here are deliberately slanderous and nasty. Keep it up and I will have you in court for derogation of character.
Lorin,
I’m sorry I made the assumption but I also gave you the benefit of the doubt. And now that you clarified it by you being from Australia, I understand that other than the British and Americans, there are other dialects of English. I’m embarrassed to take such an offense that you would never would have made. Yes. Californians. Northern Californian. Southern Californian. Chinese American. Me. I’m just me. Please forgive me. Again, this is the part that I dislike about the internet. The disconnect. But again it’s how we stay connected given the distance. I’m very grateful to be able to interact with so many poets from around the world whom I probably will never meet in person but maybe in the afterlife.
Don’t worry about it, Diana. It’s not you who has done any damage, and please believe me, I am not by any means a racist. We all have the surnames handed down to us from our ancestors.
Some of my ancestors were English, some Welsh, some Scottish and some Dutch. I’ve had old Australian friends who had American ancestors: we did have a gold rush here.
An English Prime Minister, Sir Winston Churchill, famously said that England and the USA were “divided by a common language”. The common language is called English, but English varies as it is spoken around the world. Most clearly the division shows between English and American English. Even in American English, those who live up North close to the Canadian border speak differently than those in the South. Think of the Coen Bros. films (movies! :-) which I think were brilliant. I believe there are many dialects in the USA. You would be able to place where the various dialects in the USA are, far better than I can.
“Yes. Californians. Northern Californian. Southern Californian. Chinese American. Me. I’m just me.”
– Diana
Your insight is excellent, Diana. Hey, true blue :-)
evening star
just in time for
the frogs frogs frogs …………… Orense
their gitchy-gitchy-goos
brighten baby diapering days
lorin,
just to reassure you, as feelings are looking raw and fragile now. this verse was posted before i read your post below….not in response to it!
It wouldn’t matter, Wendy. My long dialogue of tiredness, sadness, hopelessness and frustration wouldn’t interfere with your verse (or vice versa)
It’s (it was) sunny Sunday morning with a promised 32 degrees Celsius here in Melbourne, Australia. I wish it would rain.
I began this at about 8:30, but am still tired & slow & disappointed. Of course, as fate will have it, all the nasty stuff happens while I sleep.
I would’ve thought Madeleine’s withdrawal would be the end of the Madeleine story for this renku and we could get on with it, but no, just two days pass and while I sleep there are new posts happening regarding Madeleine. After withdrawing, Madeleine is back after just two days. Two days!
This is what I’ve woken up to:
1.. madeleine kavanagh
January 18, 2025 at 8:00 am
Thank you for your humanity, Rob.
–
.2.madeleine kavanagh
January 18, 2025 at 8:04 am
Diana, thank you for your generosity of spirit.
–
3. madeleine kavanagh
January 18, 2025 at 8:07 am
Thank you for your generosity of spirit, Diana.
—
4. madeleine kavanagh
January 18, 2025 at 8:11 am
Thank you for lifting my spirits, Carol
—
5. madeleine kavanagh
January 18, 2025 at 8:20 am
Thank you.
—
6… January 18, 2025 at 9:41 am
Lorin, you made quite a blunder in assuming Diana’s first language…and then not to acknowledge it but to justify your mistake by two groundless and insulting excuses. There can not be no excusable reason why you came to this thoughtless conclusion. As careless as your remark concerning Diana’s heritage is, the benefit of the doubt would allow that it was unintentional on your part…her reaction to your misplaced assumption seems quite natural and gracious. I would think a heartfelt apology from you would be in order.”
—
(A misunderstanding of my words, apparently, and a nasty misunderstanding.)
—
7. I am astounded by these two remarks:
“I accept that English is your first language (or at least, I accept that a dialect of English is your first language (“anyways” instead of anyway and “picked” instead of selected or chosen show a dialect.” (LF)
“And yes, I will excuse you, this once.” (LF) ” – (Madeleine)
—
8. madeleine kavanagh
January 18, 2025 at 9:47 am
Carol, I am so appreciative of your encouraging message…your poetry and others’ poetry here cause me great delight. I am touched by the term “spikelet”. 🙂 I couldn’t help but smile!
—
Before, Madeleine had posted 393 posts for this renku, most of which were greetings and the like.
Now the total is 401 posts.
I had asked Madeleine to stop posting a new post for every verse of hers and to cut down on irrelevant greetings etc. Madeleine did not comply. Instead she continued and encouraged others to do the same or reply to her. An overload of this kind of behavior is not helpful to a renku, any renku, especially a renku in which the guide is willing to answer relevant questions, as I have been. I certainly understand now why Patricia did not involve herself in the threads and took notice only of the submitted verses.
–
I am no techie. John Stevenson invited me to take the role of sabaki for this renku and I agreed, but it’s John who posts the weekly top part, which I send to him on a particular day, so he has time to post each new week. Though I have been involved in quite a few renku with the late John E. Carley (and they were published) and also with John Stevenson (here at THF) I have never before come across anything like Madeleine’s behaviour except perhaps (to a far lesser extent) in Patricia’s renku. Madeleine has encouraged others to follow her.
“Now that all of us understand Lorin’s wishes we can move forward and experience this new process for the renku. I hope you will still be part of the journey with your infectious enthusiasm only slightly calibrated to fit Lorin’s frame;) “ – Orense
January 17, 2025 at 6:15 pm
—-
((Thank you Orense)
—
Of course all this happens while I sleep. As I began to write this, it was 8:12 am, Sunday, January 19th.
AEST.
—-
madeleine kavanagh
January 16, 2025 at 11:28 am
Lorin, I appreciate how much you have put your heart and soul into these renku sessions, making it a fun and creative endeavor. I apologize for the times I have been a thorn in your side. Orense and Rob, your spring verses are enchanting…perfect. So many amazing poems submitted throughout these weeks have brought joy to many hearts. John Stevenson’s Renku Sessions are a welcomed and vital service for many poets from all over the world. Lorin, I know your stepping in and filling the role of Sabaki has been a much appreciated gift to the community . I will bow out. Best wishes for everyone here.
—
Rob Barkan
January 16, 2025 at 1:30 pm
and now madeleine. madeleine you are kind in spirit and
immensely creative in your poetry. i am very distraught
to read you are bowing out. i have observed lorin’s
relentless onslaught on you while looking the other way
when other posters commit similar actions to yours.
lorin i feel despite your positive contributions to this renku
and your spot on selections, the atmosphere of your renku
has been, week after week, oppressive and negative,
especially your scapegoating of madeleine.
even when she answered your questions you still went
on harassing her. i did not enjoy reading your vicious
treatment of her, singling her out, so unbecoming of a
talented poetess and sabaki whom everyone is dependent
upon to guide them through a creative renku.
don’t be a renku wrecker! please become the outstanding
sabaki i know hides within you.
—
Lorin Ford
January 16, 2025 at 5:56 pm
“i have observed lorin’s
relentless onslaught on you while looking the other way
when other posters commit similar actions to yours.” – Rob
“the atmosphere of your renku
has been, week after week, oppressive and negative,
especially your scapegoating of madeleine.” Rob
—
I certainly did not intend “my” renku to be “oppressive and negative, week after week”. I’m surprised that you (or anyone who thought so) didn’t simply drop out.
Your argument wouldn’t hold up in court, Rob., and quite what you mean by “similar actions” is obscure to me. You can find this renku to date in the THF Renku archives if you want to investigate more closely:
https://thehaikufoundation.org/category/features/renku-sessions/
No-one but Madeleine continued on a course of posting 1 verse per post or a landslide of individual posts that contained nothing but her greetings or her approvals, despite that I’d asked her not to.. (Yes, there were those who quite obviously were influenced by her, but hadn’t yet continued to the same extent)
No-one but Madeleine, from week 1 to week to last week, posted 393 individual posts, most of which contained nothing more than her greetings or her approvals . No-one else has continued to ignore my instructions to the extent that Madeleine did.. I admit that her ignoring of my request annoyed me, drove me a tad crazy. In my experience, no-one has so blatantly ignored the guide’s request as Madeleine has.
Yes, , there are those who followed her example , but not to the same extent.
(You have every right to your own opinion, of course, Rob.)
——————————————————————————-
Right now it is Sunday, 1:04 pm AEST. (I have been at this since around 8 :30am, before posting. I’m about to post) I would’ve thought this post from Madeleine would be the end of the Madeleine story for this renku, :
madeleine kavanagh
January 16, 2025 at 11:28 am
Lorin, I appreciate how much you have put your heart and soul into these renku sessions, making it a fun and creative endeavor. I apologize for the times I have been a thorn in your side. Orense and Rob, your spring verses are enchanting…perfect. So many amazing poems submitted throughout these weeks have brought joy to many hearts. John Stevenson’s Renku Sessions are a welcomed and vital service for many poets from all over the world. Lorin, I know your stepping in and filling the role of Sabaki has been a much appreciated gift to the community . I will bow out. Best wishes for everyone here.
—
But no, just two days pass and while I sleep there are these new posts from her:
1. madeleine kavanagh
January 18, 2025 at 8:00 am
Thank you for your humanity, Rob.
—
2.madeleine kavanagh
January 18, 2025 at 8:04 am
Diana, thank you for your generosity of spirit.
—
3. madeleine kavanagh
January 18, 2025 at 8:07 am
Thank you for your generosity of spirit, Diana.
–
4. madeleine kavanagh
January 18, 2025 at 8:11 am
Thank you for lifting my spirits, Carol.
–
5. madeleine kavanagh
January 18, 2025 at 8:20 am
Thank you.
—
Carol Jones
January 18, 2025 at 12:57 pm
Orence, your post Jan 18 11:34am
I totally agree, especially your second paragraph.
Sabaki isn’t an easy role to take on, even though Lorin has a great knowledge of such things.
If confrontation and disrespect such as this continues it will be much more difficult to invite other people to present a session. No one wants a hard time when they’re taking the time and effort to keep this part of the site alive. ”
6.. January 18, 2025 at 9:41 am madeleine kavanagh
Lorin, you made quite a blunder in assuming Diana’s first language…and then not to acknowledge it but to justify your mistake by two groundless and insulting excuses. There can not be no excusable reason why you came to this thoughtless conclusion. As careless as your remark concerning Diana’s heritage is, the benefit of the doubt would allow that it was unintentional on your part…her reaction to your misplaced assumption seems quite natural and gracious. I would think a heartfelt apology from you would be in order.
I am astounded by these two remarks:
“I accept that English is your first language (or at least, I accept that a dialect of English is your first language (“anyways” instead of anyway and “picked” instead of selected or chosen show a dialect.” (LF)
“And yes, I will excuse you, this once.” (LF)
—
7. madeleine kavanagh
January 18, 2025 at 9:47 am
Carol, I am so appreciative of your encouraging message…your poetry and others’ poetry here cause me great delight. I am touched by the term “spikelet”. 🙂 I couldn’t help but smile!
——–
8.
• madeleine kavanagh
January 18, 2025 at 10:24 am
a kite frolics
this way
and that
Rob Barkin
a cute caterpillar
dining on aunt nettie’s stinging nettles.
wild caterpillar
hitching a ride on mom’s station wagon
Reply
9. • madeleine kavanagh
January 18, 2025 at 10:21 am
evening star
just in time for
the frogs frogs frogs
Orense
always a different spin
with upside down venus
—
Two days! That’s how long Madelaine’s supposed ‘bowing out’ lasted.
Add 9 to her previous ‘verse’ count of 393 and we have a grand total of 402 posts by Madeleine to date, most of them greetings and ‘wondefuls’ that have to be answered by a“thank you’.and one comment on my response to Diana. Should a renku be no more than a mutual admiration society? If it should be, then no guide/ sabaki is needed. What would John Stevenson do? (I don’t know.)
I appreciate Orense’s thoughtful and intelligent comment:
Orense
January 18, 2025 at 11:34 am
Madeleine,
I hoped you would come back with some wonderful verses, this is not helpful in my opinion.
The sabaki is the one with the authority in a renku, his or her word is what goes. Whether it be the poetry or the process he or she is the one who decides the limits. Challenging this can only be detrimental to the course of the renku.
I have two questions for you.
Did Lorin make her wishes known to you? (we both know the answer is yes, several times in fact)
Did you follow her directions? (the answer is above, the string of thank yous you just posted is tantamount to trolling in this context)
This is becoming a referendum on someone’s personality. The threshold for what we find offensive is different for everyone. Some people are more matter of fact than others, some enjoy humour that is more abrasive than what others do. Some are more brutally honest than others. How about just taking people as they are.
It is perfectly fine to voice your hurt in a constructive way. “I think I now understand your wishes Lorin, but in the process I felt singled out and hurt. Perhaps stating clear rules about commenting addressed to everyone would help avoid this in the future.” This would be about finding ways to move forward and not about assigning blame.
No-one is blameless, there has been some passive agressive needling of Lorin going on. And the more Lorin’s authority is challenged the more likely it is that she will respond with stronger and stronger language to defend herself from what is perceived as an attack on her status and a threat to the renku’s success. This is human and natural.
This is how I see the situation and I wish we could share in the joy of poetry instead of engaging in a doom loop. I am only speaking for myself and perhaps my inclusion in this link may make it seem as if I am being partisan. I know I’m not :)
—
And I appreciate Carol’s:
Carol Jones
January 18, 2025 at 12:57 pm
” Orence, your post Jan 18 11:34am
I totally agree, especially your second paragraph.
Sabaki isn’t an easy role to take on, even though Lorin has a great knowledge of such things.
If confrontation and disrespect such as this continues it will be much more difficult to invite other people to present a session. No one wants a hard time when they’re taking the time and effort to keep this part of the site alive. ”
—
By January 9th Madeleine had posted 393 posts,most of them being greetings to friends or declarations of love (or ‘wonderfuls’. I have come to dislike the words ‘wonderful’ and ‘love’! That’s the effect it’s had on me.
January 9, 2025 at 8:05 pm
Stay safe, Diana!
—January 18, 2025 at 9:41 am – madeleine Kavanagh
Lorin, you made quite a blunder in assuming Diana’s first language…and then not to acknowledge it but to justify your mistake by two groundless and insulting excuses. There can not be no excusable reason why you came to this thoughtless conclusion. As careless as your remark concerning Diana’s heritage is, the benefit of the doubt would allow that it was unintentional on your part…her reaction to your misplaced assumption seems quite natural and gracious. I would think a heartfelt apology from you would be in order.
I am astounded by these two remarks:
“I accept that English is your first language (or at least, I accept that a dialect of English is your first language (“anyways” instead of anyway and “picked” instead of selected or chosen show a dialect.” (LF)
“And yes, I will excuse you, this once.” (LF)
———————————–
“- Lorin, you made quite a blunder in assuming Diana’s first language” – Madeleine
Such an accusation! No, I didn’t blunder. Her first language is, as it turns out, not English but a Californian dialect of the English language. It is you, Madeleine, who is making blunders and apparently enjoying doing so..
madeleine kavanagh
January 18, 2025 at 8:11 am
Thank you for lifting my spirits, Carol.
Reply
1. madeleine kavanagh
January 18, 2025 at 9:47 am
Carol, I am so appreciative of your encouraging message…your poetry and others’ poetry here cause me great delight. I am touched by the term “spikelet”. 🙂 I couldn’t help but smile!
Reply
(Well, there’s the old principle of “flattery will get you everywhere” and Madeleine has learned it well.)(Lorin)
—
• Orense
January 17, 2025 at 6:15 pm
Thank you Madeleine :)
I feel like there was a communication failure between you and Lorin. I am certain you did not intend any offense and your enthusiasm and passion for renku is a beautiful thing.
From what I can gather from my limited experience of the renku sessions, it seems like your encouraging and uplifting comments were common practice in previous renku and many were participating in such a way for the first few links of this renku. This level of commenting died down somewhat as the renku progressed and you were almost alone in your continued engagement which is admirable. This left you singled out as Lorin made her wishes known, which is to avoid cluttering up the feed with too many “extraneous” comments.
Since this activity seems to be what the modus operandi was under the previous sabaki I can understand you not immediately grasping the limits Lorin was trying to set. Too many is a subjective thing. Lorin’s remarks also apply to most participants in the renku including me and it is always an adjustment working with someone new.
I see no reason for you to bow out, given how much you love renku it would be a shame for you not to participate. Now that all of us understand Lorin’s wishes we can move forward and experience this new process for the renku. I hope you will still be part of the journey with your infectious enthusiasm only slightly calibrated to fit Lorin’s frame;)
Reply
1. madeleine kavanagh
January 18, 2025 at 8:20 am
Thank you.
Repl
———–
Madeleine Kavanagh has been and still is a bully towards me. Week after week, she has deliberately refused to comply with my requests regarding postings and has encouraged others to do the same. She seems to get some kind of joy out of this. Some of her followers or friends have posted mean comments to me, such as Rob’s.
How can we get down to intelligent and thoughtful comments on submitted renku verses when there is someone posting “this is lovely”, “I love this” etc. and others replying “thank you” every time? That’s no way to learn. There are good reasons why a renku has a sabaki/ guide. Consider after the renku is finished whether or not the renku is successful and the guide is someone whose renku group you would join again.
I am worn out as well as feeling very hurt. There are one or two, that’s all, who have been a bit nasty along my renku way, but I’ve not experienced (nor seen) anything at all as nasty as in this business from Madleine and her followers.
How would anyone feel if this, from Rob, right after his “kite” verse had been accepted, had been aimed at you? (Any of you) :
“ i have observed lorin’s
relentless onslaught on you (Madeleine- L) while looking the other way
when other posters commit similar actions to yours.
lorin i feel despite your positive contributions to this renku
and your spot on selections, the atmosphere of your renku
has been, week after week, oppressive and negative,”
—
I don’t know what to do. I’m hurt by the way things have gone and I’m exhausted.
I promised to sabaki a 12 verse renku when John S. asked me to. I don’t want to bother John S. about this. I have no idea who to call in, if there is anyone.. I don’t have the technical skill to delete anything. All I know is that this is, thanks to Madeleine and her followers, is the wrong path, not the path to renku.
—
I will attempt to continue to the end of this renku.
After reading the above, Lorin, I really feel your anger and disappointment. At this point I’m sending my apology, to you, for posting my encouragement to madeleine, however, I meant what I said, but to post her verses, only, never realizing the backlash that was to come.
Some time ago, when there was a disruption of a Renku session, I got in touch with John Stevenson, he in turn got in touch with Jim Kasien, for advice. Maybe you could get in touch with the new site president Robin Smith.
I know you will see this session out to the end, Lorin. You won’t let yourself or THF down.
I hope it rains, soon, for you.
Carol, if Jim was still in that post, I would’ve, but I don’t want to contact Robin Smith at this point. She’s probably got enough on her plate, as she’s new to the role.
I intend, no matter how hot and tired, to see this renku of ours to the end. It’s only these three more weeks.
Lorin,
I am saddened that these developments affected you to this extent. Your efforts are appreciated by many and the renku speaks for itself as to your talent as sabaki.
I understand that your instruction to limit extraneous comments which may seem like a trivial matter to some has some very good reasons. I hope everyone will keep this in mind going forward. Perhaps a cap of three comments max per week to express admiration of verses we find exceptional ideally with some substantive commentary that explains why?
“Perhaps a cap of three comments max per week to express admiration of verses we find exceptional ideally with some substantive commentary that explains why?”
That would be an intelligent thing to do, Orense, but I’m pretty sure Madeleine wouldn’t like it. Her reach, as far as I’ve seen, is no more than comments of general praise, with the expectation that the person addressed will say “Thank you, Madeleine” or the like.
If you scroll down, you’ll find her recent posts. Well, I’ll save you the effort: here they are:
6 individual posts:
madeleine kavanagh
January 18, 2025 at 8:13 am
Thank you, Orense.
—
madeleine kavanagh
January 18, 2025 at 8:08 am
Thank you for your words of compassion, Orense.
—
madeleine kavanagh
January 18, 2025 at 8:14 am
Thank you for your humanity, Rob.
—
madeleine kavanagh
January 18, 2025 at 8:15 am
Thank you for your generosity of spirit, Diana.
—
madeleine kavanagh
January 18, 2025 at 8:16 am
Thank you for you lifting my spirits, Carol.
—
madeleine kavanagh
January 18, 2025 at 8:17 am
Thank you for your kindness, always Pamela.
—
Madeleine : No thanks to you for your blatant posting precisely in the manner I’ve asked you to avoid, over and over, again. – Lorin. (I suppose you think you’re clever, refusing to co-operate. )
I understand that you want to be acknowledged, and that you’re more interested in the social involvement than in creating a renku as such.
I’ve made it clear that this was to be a renku session, not a “renku party”. You’ve ignored my directions over and over. Unfortunately, I have no way to delete your posts.
—
I can’t speak for Madeleine or anyone’s cooperation but I think having a defined limit would still make it easier for you to police excesses. Then if there are excessive posts (more than three) the violation is clear and unambiguous and you can point to the general rule. :)
evening star
just in time for
the frogs frogs frogs
Orense
*
tipping the stool
as she milks a cow
*
braiding her hair wet
to make it wavy
*
sleeping with wet braids
to curl her hair
*
playing hopscotch
in the street
a kite frolics
this way
and that
– Rob Barkan
embers flitting
from rooftop to rooftop to rooftop
Diana Ming Jeong
I may be off the mark, but thank you to Orense, I didn’t see that “embers” could link to “star”… but now that I do see it!, I offer the same verse for 9b, therefore…
evening star
just in time for
the frogs frogs frogs
– Orense
embers flitting
from rooftop to rooftop to rooftop
Diana Ming Jeong
This works to set the scene for me as a reader and the image is very poignant. I like L2’s extra length it gives me a sense of the town’s skyline and the potential magnitude of the catastrophe. I don’t know what Lorin’s reaction to the repetition of rooftop will be. The repetition is linked instead of staccato like in my verse which might provide some wiggle room. It depends if she sees it as different enough to act as another linking element instead of a redundancy.
Thank you, Orense. 🙏 You have been very helpful.
Diana and Orense, I have to admit that I’d prefer Diana’s verse linking to Rob Barkan’s kite rather than the ‘frogs’ verse, and having just the one repetition of ‘rooftop’ –
a kite frolics
this way
and that (– Rob Barkan)
embers flitting
from rooftop to rooftop (-Diana Ming Jeong)
But this isn’t final. I’ll need to go through the lot, including any as-yet-to-be posted verses, before any decisions are made, and after I recover from the hurtful and nasty aspects associated with Madeleine’s unexpected return, just two days after her “bowing out”.
Thank you Orense and Lorin,
I graciously accept your edit and know this isn’t final. This is a good lesson for me to work with feedback and guidance.
a kite frolics
this way
and that
Rob Barkan
embers flitting
from rooftop to rooftop
Diana Ming Jeong
to me,
embers flitting
from rooftop to rooftop
works better than the version with 3 iterations of ‘rooftop’. Stating an extra ‘rooftop’ doesn’t add anything, to my mind, because just the one repetition of ‘rooftop’ allows the possibility of there being many rooftops.
a kite frolics
this way
and that – Rob Barkan
curtains twitch
as the new neighbors arrive
Orence, your post Jan 18 11:34am
I totally agree, especially your second paragraph.
Sabaki isn’t an easy role to take on, even though Lorin has a great knowledge of such things.
If confrontation and disrespect such as this continues it will be much more difficult to invite other people to present a session. No one wants a hard time when they’re taking the time and effort to keep this part of the site alive.
I agree Carol that it is a difficult and often thankless job. I appreciate this and Lorin for taking on this responsibility. :)
Thanks to both of you, Carol and Orense. for your insight.
“If confrontation and disrespect such as this continues it will be much more difficult to invite other people to present a session. ”
I imagine that would be the case.
As for me, I agreed to guide a Renku session, not a Renku party. It seems to me that some people don’t understand the difference and , as well, prefer to ignore my guidance.
Why such people don’t simply drop out and plan to guide their own Renku party, I don’t understand.
a kite frolics
this way
and that
Rob Barkin
a cute caterpillar
dining on aunt nettie’s stinging nettles.
wild caterpillar
hitching a ride on mom’s station wagon
evening star
just in time for
the frogs frogs frogs
Orense
always a different spin
with upside down venus
a kite frolics
this way
and that
Rob Barken
in the breeze
untangling his hair
seeing the cat
the robin changes her mind
young lovers
stop for a kiss
closing the curtains
siesta time
in the city
a seagull’s cry
checking his pockets
keys left at home
the steam in our coffees
spirals out of view
walking downhill
laughing with friends
above the chimney tops
a dog shaped cloud
our spoons swim
in melting ice cream
lost in a book
on the decking
the cat seeks shade
under my chair
sprinkling cheese
waiting for the wren
pecking all the seed
pigeons party
evening light
teases the tree tops
making dinner
handing mum some chocolate
Thank you, Orense.
These posts are examples of the types of posts I’ve asked Madeleine to refrain from posting:
—
madeleine kavanagh
January 18, 2025 at 8:13 am
Thank you, Orense.
—
madeleine kavanagh
January 18, 2025 at 8:08 am
Thank you for your words of compassion, Orense.
—
madeleine kavanagh
January 18, 2025 at 8:14 am
Thank you for your humanity, Rob.
—
madeleine kavanagh
January 18, 2025 at 8:15 am
Thank you for your generosity of spirit, Diana.
—
madeleine kavanagh
January 18, 2025 at 8:16 am
Thank you for you lifting my spirits, Carol.
—
madeleine kavanagh
January 18, 2025 at 8:17 am
Thank you for your kindness, always Pamela.
—
Madeleine : No thanks to you for your blatant rudeness in posting precisely in the manner I’ve asked you to avoid. (I suppose you think you’re clever, refusing to co-operate.)
Thank you for your words of compassion, Orense.
Thank you for your humanity, Rob.
Thank you for your generosity of spirit, Diana.
Thank you for you lifting my spirits, Carol.
Thank you for your kindness, always Pamela.
evening star
just in time for
the frogs frogs frogs – Orense
the broken car horn
blares continuously
evening star
just in time for
the frogs frogs frogs – Orense
the traffic lights
red in four directions
a kite frolics
this way
and that – Rob Barkan
the priest swings the sensor
left then right
9a 9b
evening star a kite frolics
just in time for this way
the frogs frogs frogs and that
– Orense – Rob Barkan
the priest swings the sensor
left then right
I can’t seem to reply to you Orense, but thank you for this! It’s lovely and brings me peace. I have heard of Lucifer Morning Star! Now I know about Evening Star. Education is wonderful! Thank you!
Orense
January 17, 2025 at 7:28 pm
The planet Venus known as both the Evening star and the Morning star is the brightest “star” in the sky precisely because it is not one and is reflecting the sun’s light. It is the first visible star and the last visible star. Before the advancement of astronomy these were thought to be two different stars.
In French one of the Evening star’s oldest names is “l’Etoile du Berger” the Shepherd’s Star as it’s appearance in the sky would signal it was time to go back to the sheepfold.
In the Biblical tradition Morning Star is one of Lucifer’s names as the Bringer of Light before his fall.
Nooooooo you copy-pasted my typos now they appear twice lol :) I wish we could edit our comments…. I’m glad you found it interesting. This is just a drop in the bucket as Venus has captured the imagination of humans all around the world. Here are a few more myths I did not know about and find wonderful, in case you enjoy mythology as I do.
https://ed.ted.com/lessons/the-mayan-myth-of-the-morning-star#:~:text=Chak%20Ek'%2C%20the%20morning%20star,his%20brother%20and%20his%20allies.
https://www.worldoftales.com/Asian_folktales/Chinese_Folktale_35.html
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taibai_Jinxing
Orense,
I love mythology! Thank you for these links!
Thank you Lorin, I might go super experimental since my verses don’t count :))
evening star
just in time for
the frogs frogs frogs
– Orense
and/or
a kite frolics
this way
and that
– Rob Barkan
mosh pit mayhem
at the rock festival
a crow crosses the lawn
and cha cha cha
the grey tabby pouncing
on shadows
pained gurgles
of the cathedral’s gargoyles
pained gurgles
of gargoyles
the politician’s speech
drags on…
no end to
the politician’s speech
the blacker the crow
the whiter the clouds
a crow smooths his feathers
at the level crossing
at the level crossing
three rattled crows
a kite frolics
this way
and that
– Rob Barkan
embers flying
everywhere
-Diana Ming Jeong
*****
evening star
just in time for
the frogs frogs frogs
– Orense
embers burning
the beams so bright
-Diana Ming Jeong
Orense…. Am I closer ?
– Diana
evening star
just in time for
the frogs frogs frogs – Orence
a pub bell rings
for last orders
‘Last orders’ takes me back to the days of 6 o’clock closing. In Australia that ended in the mid sixties. Is it still the norm in Wales?
Landlords, these days, can use their discretion, as long as its not before 8am and after 11pm, could be later? Never really been one for going out in the evening. So many pubs have closed down due to ever rising costs of living. The city seems the better place to go for the younger generation, and the older young at heart, they want a bit more than a pint and a chat.
evening star
just in time for
the frogs frogs frogs
– Orense
*
obeying the rule of three
for good and for ill
A very clever verse, Laurie.
Sorry. Lorin. I’ve just read your post below about posting such comments.
I do like the element of the verse regarding story telling.
Carol, I see no problem to comment like this from time to time.(See my comments to Debbie, further down.)
ps, there is such a thing as ‘the rule of 3’
When I first read, Laurie’s verse the ‘rule of thirds’ came to mind.
I thought for a moment and told myself, Laurie wouldn’t make a mistake such as this, and looked the ‘rule of three’ up.
I’ve learnt.
a kite frolics
this way
and that
– Rob Barkan
*
how the pages of his thriller
seem to turn themselves
*
flipping through the pages
to find his favorite quote
*
flipping the pages
in search of a lost line
*
8
first spring gust
and the silk robe opens
9a
evening star
just in time for
the frogs frogs frogs
9b
a kite frolics
this way
and that
The Two v9s make a good pair to follow from, as there is redundancy in both ‘frolics’ imply ‘this way
…………………………………………..and that’.
In spite of all the complained-of chat &
exclamatory appreciation –
“Praise undeserved is scandal in disguise”
– there have been many ingenious & vivid responses. I don’t say which, lest I should be thought to trying to influence our sabaki’s choice.
“What can be done?” about the
excessive mælström
of comment? We should impose a Self-Denying Ordinance on ourselves. I should think before saying anything and, if an opponent objects, not rise to the bait. I have had my say, and they theirs : the judicious reader can decide on the rights and wrongs of the matter.
As for the spat between MK & LF
(I speak from my ancientry) it seems less a case of
“Condemning sins we are inclined
by damning those we have no mind to”
(Samuel Butler)
than
“The sins the hardest to condone
in other people, are our own. ”
(Piet Hein)
MK signed off her moderating &dignified last word with “I bow out”. This, it may be hoped, applied to only vv9 & 10, and she will re-enter, if at a more summerly rate of flow,
Back to Business ! ‘
evening star
noisy frogs
a kite frolics
10
the little dog laughs
and the cat runs away to the moon
celebrity’s critics
are roasted in the media
last jokes, farewells,
and helpers clear up quietly
Dick, relevant discussion is fine by me. Stretches of “Wonderful, Susanna!” , “I love this one, Betty” or “Thanks Harry!” are not.
Positing 10 verses in one post is fine. Posting 10 verses, one at a time, is not acceptable.
“MK signed off her moderating &dignified last word with “I bow out”.” Dick
…and as you can see, she broke her word by jumping in again only two days later.
Thank you Lorin for including my verse. I personally love all things unusual so I was taken with your fork idea. I hope you will be able to create a true fork with our verses side by side as it makes it much more dynamic visually in my opinion but I understand there might be technical limitations in play here. :(
Can I still post verses without the expectation of being chosen?
Orense, I appreciated John’s comment (‘a fork in the road’) Ir you scroll down you’ll see Wendy’s
queries & comments (and my responses) about the issue of possible layout. I don’t know for sure but I’m guessing now that changing the layout might be impossible or at least difficult for John.
This might be my craziness talking but maybe writing the verses vertically could be fun since they cannot be presented side by side? I have done a poor job of it on my phone but it is just to illustrate what I mean in two vertical lines it could be three and three vertical lines which wouldn’t take up as much space. Just a passing thought:)
a e
v
k e
i n
t i
e n
g
f
r s
o t
l a
i r
c
s
j
u
t s
h t
i
s i
n
w
a t
y i
m
e
a f
n o
d r
t t
h h
a e
t
f
r
o
g
s
f
r
o
g
s
f
r
o
g
s
wow that did not work lol. I’ll try later on my computer…
. “Can I still post verses without the expectation of being chosen?” – Yes, Orense, if you want to.
… and, your comments and advice to Diana are appropriate. I appreciate such posts. I imagine that English is not Diana’s first language. Comments such as yours are helpful and instructive, and on a different level altogether than the “This is wonderful!” kind of comment.
“I imagine that English is not Diana’s first language.”
Excuse me?! 😱 I will give you the benefit of the doubt about how you came to this conclusion. But to clarify, English is my first language.
“… and, your comments and advice to Diana are appropriate. I appreciate such posts…… Comments such as yours are helpful and instructive, and on a different level altogether than the “This is wonderful!” kind of comment.”
No, I thought Orense’s comment was too long. A simple *”fireflies” is a seasonal word* or nothing at all would have sufficed. You just wouldn’t have picked it. But I thanked Orense anyways.
No “benefit of the doubt” is needed, Diana. How I “came to this conclusion” is that (1) you didn’t understand or accept Orense’s perfectly clear ( & kind) explanation of why your
“fireflies fly into the fire” wouldn’t work.
“No, I thought Orense’s comment was too long. A simple *”fireflies” is a seasonal word* or nothing at all would have sufficed. You just wouldn’t have picked it. But I thanked Orense anyways.”
I’m not referring to
“Fireflies”, indeed, is a season word and is cited as such in the kiyose we’re using for this renku.: “firefly: midsummer”
However, without getting into complicated discussions about fireflies, literal or figurative, it is stated up top that this verse needs to be non-seasonal : “Our 10th verse will be a 2-line verse, non-seasonal”. Did you not read that?
I accept that English is your first language (or at least, I accept that a dialect of English is your first language (“anyways” instead of anyway and “picked” instead of selected or chosen show a dialect. )
And yes, I will excuse you, this once.
““Our 10th verse will be a 2-line verse, non-seasonal”. Did you not read that?”
I did read it… but I didn’t check the list, and I have used it before, but as an autumn word. 😀 … two strikes! Haha!
“How I “came to this conclusion” is that (1) you didn’t understand or accept Orense’s perfectly clear ( & kind) explanation of why your “fireflies fly into the fire” wouldn’t work.”
I accept your explanation but I don’t see how this would warrant ““I imagine that English is not Diana’s first language.”” because I neither “didn’t understand” nor “didn’t accept”. I did say “Anyways, I get it. Fireflies doesn’t work here.” Did you not read that?
“And yes, I will excuse you, this once.”
Can you please explain to me what you mean by “this once.”? Did I do something wrong? I just would like to be sure since we have a difference in English dialects. Yes, after posting “picked”, I wanted to edit “picked” to “selected” but I can’t edit my comments. Look. I am 100% Chinese. I was born and raised in San Jose, California and now I have lived in Los Angeles, California for 25 years. English is my first language.
Diana, This reply of mine might not come after your recent post, as I’d like it to.
Every time I try. the header states “reply to Lorin Ford/. But never mind, I’ll do my best.
““Anyways, I get it. Fireflies doesn’t work here.” Did you not read that?”(D)
I did.and I noted “anyways”.
“And yes, I will excuse you, this once.” (L)
Can you please explain to me what you mean by “this once.”? (D)
Diana, you asked me to excuse you: “Excuse me?! 😱 ” but by this time. , I realised that you weren’t really asking me to excuse you at all, but using the words to mean otherwise , at best: “What did you say? But more likely “And what do you mean by what you’ve said? I’m shocked!” (Something like that)
My response was a tongue-in -cheek retort. I used “excuse me” literally, but with my “tongue in my cheek” (an idiom) pointing to your idiomatic usage of “excuse me” .
(I knew full well you weren’t actually asking me to excuse you, but displaying some sort of anger, shock or horror. )
“English is my first language.” OK, then you have no excuse for misunderstanding Orense words. It’s probably just a case of ye olde “divided by a common language”, quite common between the Englishes.
:-) American English is your first language, then. But let’s just drop it, I thought Orense’s words to you would be useful, helpful. but you didn’t. End of story.
.
something like “how dare you!
Lorin, you made quite a blunder in assuming Diana’s first language…and then not to acknowledge it but to justify your mistake by two groundless and insulting excuses. There can not be no excusable reason why you came to this thoughtless conclusion. As careless as your remark concerning Diana’s heritage is, the benefit of the doubt would allow that it was unintentional on your part…her reaction to your misplaced assumption seems quite natural and gracious. I would think a heartfelt apology from you would be in order.
I am astounded by these two remarks:
“I accept that English is your first language (or at least, I accept that a dialect of English is your first language (“anyways” instead of anyway and “picked” instead of selected or chosen show a dialect.” (LF)
“And yes, I will excuse you, this once.” (LF)
Madeleine,
I hoped you would come back with some wonderful verses, this is not helpful in my opinion.
The sabaki is the one with the authority in a renku, his or her word is what goes. Whether it be the poetry or the process he or she is the one who decides the limits. Challenging this can only be detrimental to the course of the renku.
I have two questions for you.
Did Lorin make her wishes known to you? (we both know the answer is yes, several times in fact)
Did you follow her directions? (the answer is above, the string of thank yous you just posted is tantamount to trolling in this context)
This is becoming a referendum on someone’s personality. The threshold for what we find offensive is different for everyone. Some people are more matter of fact than others, some enjoy humour that is more abrasive than what others do. Some are more brutally honest than others. How about just taking people as they are.
It is perfectly fine to voice your hurt in a constructive way. “I think I now understand your wishes Lorin, but in the process I felt singled out and hurt. Perhaps stating clear rules about commenting addressed to everyone would help avoid this in the future.” This would be about finding ways to move forward and not about assigning blame.
No-one is blameless, there has been some passive agressive needling of Lorin going on. And the more Lorin’s authority is challenged the more likely it is that she will respond with stronger and stronger language to defend herself from what is perceived as an attack on her status and a threat to the renku’s success. This is human and natural.
This is how I see the situation and I wish we could share in the joy of poetry instead of engaging in a doom loop. I am only speaking for myself and perhaps my inclusion in this link may make it seem as if I am being partisan. I know I’m not :)
a kite frolics
this way
and that
Rob Barkan
*
over-running both margins
with his sprawling cursive
*
covering every page
with his attempts at cursive
*
the loops and swirls
of his cursive signature
*
holding back
the final note
blowing bubbles
to reach the sky
river stones
skimming twilight
Joanna Ashwell
river stones
skimming twilight
holding back
the final note
blowing bubbles
to reach the sky
Joanna Ashwell
evening star
just in time for
the frogs frogs frogs–——- Orense
i used the garage door
remote to turn on my tv
evening star
just in time for
the frogs frogs frogs– Orense
three appetizers to-go
off the seafood menu
or if numbers aren’t allowed:
ordering appetizers to-go
off the seafood menu
which face shows now
from the faces of eve
evening star
just in time for
the frogs frogs frogs
Orense
*
the boom of Big Ben
from a grandfather clock
*
jumping at the boom
of a grandfather clock
*
stopping the clock
on a near photo finish
*
the lighthouse keeper passes
his trade to his son
*
the lighthouse keeper fights
replacement by machine
*
Lorin,
Now that we are working for Verse #10,
can you show me what you have envisioned for
the srtucture of the renku?
will it look look like this?
verse 1
verse 2
verse 3
verse 4
verse 5
verse 6
verse 7
verse 8
verse 9a………….verse 9b
verse 10
verse 11
verse 12
or
verse 1
verse 2
verse 3
verse 4
verse 5
verse 6
verse 7
verse 8
verse 9a………….verse 9b
verse 10a…………verse 10b
verse 11a………….verse 11b
verse 12a…………verse 12b
or something else?
and you said you believe it was done before…..can you tell me who did it and give me the source so i can read it?
thank you in advance,
for respectfully answering my questions.
I think it will look like your first arrangement, Wendy., as above.
I had the idea that we could have, for princess’s verse and the two selected (Orence’s and Rob’s, as it has turned out)
something like this:
first spring gust
and the silk robe opens–
( princess k)
evening star a kite frolics
just in time for this way
the frogs frogs frogs and that
(Orense ) (Rob Barkan)
but I must’ve been dreaming.
I think John S. has the answers to the Renku Sessions layout/ layouts. My best guess now is that the layout, once decided upon, is automatic. I’m no techie, though.
“and you said you believe it was done before…..can you tell me who did it and give me the source so i can read it?”
I’m pretty sure I’ve seen such layouts, but where or when I can’t recall. It could have been in a book. A printer would probably have the answers to what layouts are possible. One could do it on a typewriter.
But it’s clear to me now that John has a template for the weekly posts. Let it be.
Well, that didn’t work even in these ‘comments’ posts, did it? There’s the answer.
It will look like this:
verse 1
verse 2
verse 3
verse 4
verse 5
verse 6
verse 7
verse 8
verse 9a
verse 9b
verse 10
verse 11
verse 12
thanks……Lorin.
i thought(had hopes) there would be an actual renku you could point to that i could read tonight.
Sadly, i guess i’ll have to do my best with a skeleton.
For those who are interested: https://www.ahapoetry.com/Bare%20Bones/RBless10.html
The above is a link from Jane Reichhold’s website Aha Poetry Bare Bones School of Renga, which gives an example of the renga variations: net and pyramid renga. Of course renga is not renku, but this is the only example that I have seen of this form (granted, I am not very well read on the subject, so I am sure that there must be other examples out there.)
Ah, I think I saw these some time ago, princess. I did belong to her AHA Poetry group, on a website that Mike Rehling set up for her.
To my understanding, renga is/was the classical or orthodox school of linked verses (the school that had frogs singing to their lady frogs.) Basho came along later and lightened things up with haikai no renga , bringing a sense of humour/ comedy. and images from the common world rather than the aristocratic.
Renga (the aristocratic school) would not have a verse like that of Basho’s horse eating a flower:
“A haiku written in 1684.
a) Michinobe-no | mukuge | wa | uma | ni | kuware-keri
b) Roadside | mallow | as-for| horse | by | was-eaten-keri
c) Near the road it flowered, / the mallow—and by my horse / has been devoured!
d) roadside flower / fated to be eaten / by my horse ”
It’s interesting that both renga and renku can be shaped in artistic forms and this could add to the presentation. But for me it’s the renku verses that inspire me or make me smile.
.
9a and 9b
prayers stuttered from his
tooth hanging on a string
guiding sleepy children
into turned down beds
Lorin, I want to apologize for also adding comments to others posts, not realizing how much harder that makes your job . . .a job you volunteered for so that we could come together and create a new renku.
Debbie, I don’t find anything wrong with adding comments (or sincere inquiries) to other’s posts here and there an issue. Discussions can be useful, and educational, too. What I have issues with is a continuous string of comments that do nothing but show approval and take up space: “This is wonderful” , “I love this”, “Good one, Henry!” and the like., before the verse has been selected or not selected.
(Thanks, I appreciate your understanding. I do find it hard to engage with an offered verse if I have to wade/read through a string of compliments others have already posted. )
Congratulations Orense, Rob and Lorin! Thank you for your wonderful creative work!
i am frolicking with joy to see two wonderful spring poems!
(9a)
evening star
just in time for
the frogs frogs frogs ^^^^^^^^Orense
(9b)
a kite frolics
this way
and that ~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Rob Barkan
Congrats! to both of you, orense and rob and
your inductions into Lorin’s,
a creative sabaki’s,
Musical Chairs Renku
here are some of my verse #10 offerings
for verse 9a and 9b
(9b)
scrolling back and forth
on the menu columns
(9a) or (9b)
putting out candle flames
on an endless cake
(9a) or (9b)
who lives to croak
vs who lives rejoicing
(9a) or (9b)
updates on lives expired
vs the lives saved
(9a) or (9b)
the croon or doom
deciphered in language
(9a) or (9b)
mixed messages makes
a schizophrenic sky
evening star
just in time for
the frogs frogs frogs
– Orense
and/or
a kite frolics
this way
and that
– Rob Barkan
a tiny hand points up
from father’s strong shoulders
a thousand pilgrimages
was it left or right?
Well done to, Orence and Rob on having your verses selected.
I can see the Spring connection ‘frogs’ within Orence’s verse, but no other connection to the previous verse.
Bob’s verse, however, for me, has both a Spring connection with the kite and its movement relating to the robe’s movement caused by the breeze.
That should be, Rob, sorry Rob, which I altered twice before posting. Tech, is great when it works:/
first spring gust
and the silk robe opens
– princess k
evening star
just in time for
the frogs frogs frogs
– Orense
Carol, as I see it, the connection of Orense’s ‘frogs’ verse to princess’s ‘first spring gust’ verse is a simple one:
The ‘evening star’ is the first star to be seen at night. (recall the childhood rhyme “starlight, star bright, first star I see tonight . . . ” So we have two ‘firsts’ : “first spring gust” ( princess) and “evening star ” (first star) , Orense.
I’m tutting at my not seeing this, Lorin. This is why you are the Sabaki :)
Many thanks.
I have never heard “evening star” to describe “first star”, so the link is lost to me. “Just in time” could be the link for me in my haiku naiveté.
” have never heard “evening star” to describe “first star”,…” – Diana
Well, now you have heard, Diana. :-)
Lorin,
I am always learning.😀
Well, I looked it up, in particular in reference to the Bible, as this reminds me of a hymn that I love… “What Star Is This?”
https://hymnary.org/text/what_star_is_this_withbeamssobright_more
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Evening_and_the_Morning_Star#:~:text=Jesus%20Christ%20is%20referred%20to%20at%20Revelation,it%20appears%20in%20the%20east%20before%20sunrise.
Thusly, I offered a link, which I posted at https://thehaikufoundation.org/the-renku-sessions-12-tones-musical-chairs-week-10/#comment-163806
🌟
I don’t know if it works, but I tried. 😝
The planet Venus known as both the Evening star and the Morning star is the brightest “star” in the sky precisely because it is not one and is reflecting the sun’s light. It is the first visible star and the last visible star. Before the advancement of astronomy these were thought to be two different stars.
In French one of the Evening star’s oldest names is “l’Etoile du Berger” the Shepherd’s Star as it’s appearance in the sky would signal it was time to go back to the sheepfold.
In the Biblical tradition Morning Star is one of Lucifer’s names as the Bringer of Light before his fall.
a kite frolics
this way
and that
Rob Barkan
*
a string around her finger
so she won’t forget
*
lassoing memory
with string around a finger
*
memory follows its string
up up and away
a kite frolics
this way
and that
– Rob Barkan
thank you lorin for choosing my verse.
and i much appreciate the indents
you inserted for lines 2 and 3 to display
the movement of the kite. very creative.
it is a great way to bring animation into
a static group of words. i recall this effective
technique also being used in the past by john
stevenson, marshall hryciuk, and wendy c bialek.
speaking of wendy, my original kite verse needed
improvement and it was she who prompted me
to revise it. so i credit her for helping me get chosen.
evening star
just in time for
the frogs frogs frogs
– orense
thank you orense for your fun verse. i can visualize
loads of frogs “frolicing” at the pond as venus rises.
seems you were inspired by wendy c bialek’s week 7
verse:
showing
him him him
how i slow grind a sumi stick
then john and pamela followed in the triplet pattern.
and now madeleine. madeleine you are kind in spirit and
immensely creative in your poetry. i am very distraught
to read you are bowing out. i have observed lorin’s
relentless onslaught on you while looking the other way
when other posters commit similar actions to yours.
lorin i feel despite your positive contributions to this renku
and your spot on selections, the atmosphere of your renku
has been, week after week, oppressive and negative,
especially your scapegoating of madeleine.
even when she answered your questions you still went
on harassing her. i did not enjoy reading your vicious
treatment of her, singling her out, so unbecoming of a
talented poetess and sabaki whom everyone is dependent
upon to guide them through a creative renku.
don’t be a renku wrecker! please become the outstanding
sabaki i know hides within you.
“i have observed lorin’s
relentless onslaught on you while looking the other way
when other posters commit similar actions to yours.” – Rob
“the atmosphere of your renku
has been, week after week, oppressive and negative,
especially your scapegoating of madeleine.” Rob
I certainly did not intend “my” renku to be “oppressive and negative”, week after week. I’m surprised that you (or anyone who thought so) didn’t simply drop out.
Your argument wouldn’t hold up in court, Rob., and quite what you mean by “similar actions” is obscure to me. You can find this renku to date in the THF Renku archives if you want to investigate more closely:
https://thehaikufoundation.org/category/features/renku-sessions/
No-one but Madeleine continued on a course of posting 1 verse per post or a landslide of individual posts that contained nothing but her greetings or her approvals. (Yes, there were those who quite obviously were influenced by her, but hadn’t yet continued to the same extent)
No-one but Madeleine, from week 1 to week to last week, posted 393 individual posts, most of which contained nothing more than her greetings or her approvals . No-one else continued to ignore my instructions to the extent that Madeleine did.
Yes, there were those who followed her example , but not to the same extent.
You have every right to your own opinion, of course.
Thank you Rob! Congratulations on a wonderful verse for this spot. I have never understood the intense dislike some have for personification/zoomorphism and related figures of speech in ELH/ELR. Personification is not rare in Japanese haiku, there are even kigo that use personification. Like always with figures of speech in haikai it is not that they should not be used but rather that they cannot be used as mere embellishment they have to relate to the moment organically. I think your verse is an example of the latter. A kite on the wind does look as if it is alive and it adds to the description of spring’s vitality, the surge of energy and life seemingly affecting even the inanimate.
I wasn’t inspired by any particular verse, though I saw Wendy’s fun love verse ;) triplets in haiku/renku is a pretty common effect in my experience. Three’s the magic number allowing for emphasis and a sense of closure. My proposed ageku for Side show was
eager eager eager
the swing’s creak
Seems I like using triplets for phonetic play :)
A few thoughts on personification etc., plus a link to the old THF forum thread on the subject, in https://thehaikufoundation.org/revirals-434/#revfootnote
Thank you Keith for the links :)
Thank you for your humanity, Rob.
Thank you for your humanity, Rob.
Interesting idea to have the options (and I am all for entertaining the unconventional).
Just my ha’porth: the great appeal of “frogs frogs frogs” to me is that that is just what they sound like, and it is bold and original to go with it. Whereas some of the other offerings that followed as soon as the sun shone on “frogs frogs frogs” had the repetition but without the auditory effect, or without the haikai spirit. That the frogs are hoping to mate is sufficient link. The link between the spring gust and a kite oscillating is more obvious, and the animism or zoomorphism or personalisation of a kite frolicking might be questioned by some; but both seem good lively verses.
Thank you Keith:) I enjoyed hearing your thoughts on my verse. I’m glad the intended auditory effect came through.
Congratulations to Orense and Rob!
a kite frolics
this way
and that
– Rob Barkan
embers flurry
into the night
fireflies
flit in the trees
Diana Ming Jeong
I’d like to make an edit. After I posted I went about my morning. But I kept repeating it this way in my head. I’d like to submit this instead.
fireflies
flit into the trees
Diana Ming Jeong
Here is another one.
a kite frolics
this way
and that
– Rob Barkan
fireflies fly
into the fire
Diana Ming Jeong
Thank you Diana. :) Firefly is a summer kigo you should keep it tucked away for the upcoming summer links. I am a sucker for firefly verses one I find unforgettable is this one by Issa ;)
blown away
by the horse’s fart
firefly
Thanks Orense but I’m using firefly to describe fire embers.
That’s a poignant comparison. But then there is no context to show the reader these are metaphorical fireflies. Otherwise the typical reader will take it at face value and literal fireflies signal summer in what should be a seasonless verse. If this is the meaning you wish to get across you need to make the comparison more explicit in my opinion. For instance
embers like fireflies
into the trees
in one sweep houses
turn into fireflies
fireflies
all that’s left of the town
What may seem like an obvious connection to you, who is living through the horror of these fires in the present will not be so obvious to those who do not have this in the forefront of their minds. Fleshing out the situation would make the verse better stand the test of time with the
help of some added context.
I think this is a valuable message and witness account of the moment. My thoughts go to you and all those affected by this catastrophe.
I suppose.
I wrote a haiku I wrote in 2015 after watching Miyazake’s “Grave of the Fireflies”.
funeral pyre –
into the autumn night,
these fireflies
I wanted to work on this thought and I removed “autumn” to remove the season. In my 2015 poem, autumn was for the stage in human life.
Anyways, I get it. Fireflies doesn’t work here.
Thank you for your offerings. I don’t like to use similes very much so I refrain from using “embers like fireflies”.
Unfortunately, what you offered here, doesn’t convey what I was trying to say. But thank you anyways.
embers like fireflies
into the trees
in one sweep houses
turn into fireflies
fireflies
all that’s left of the town
Diana, the verses I offered as examples were not meant to replace your own words and are deliberately incomplete so as to not cut off too many options for you in rewriting your verse. I don’t mean them as ready-to-go verses but rather as illustrations of my meaning when I suggested you add more context. I think embers is an image that links well with both previous verses, their flitting motion links with the kite’s motion and as specks of fire/light they link visually with Evening Star. It is also a current image with a lot of emotional power and a testimony of the times. If you manage to get it right I think it could be an exceptional verse. I’ll stop here as I understand reader feedback is not your thing :)
I’ll stop here as I understand reader feedback is not your thing :) [O]
It’s ok Orense. My ego got the better of me. I am very sorry. I graciously accept your reader feedback. I was not in the right place of mind having read Lorin’s comments to Madeleine of “Are you my mentor?” And it carried the same spirit to me in my mind of you. So what isn’t my thing is this disconnect on the internet which is the very thing that connects us. We are like a renku coming to life with links! And there, I used a smilie.
I’m very sorry for the disruption. I still stand by defending myself about my first language because I honestly felt like it was a racist comment as the reason given didn’t warrant the comment. But I forgive Lorin for saying it. Let bygones be bygones. We don’t know what everyone else is going through. I felt that Madeleine is the person in the room who is light and encourages everybody and who doesn’t need that? But again my ego accepted her light and not your critique and I need to be open to all. I will do better. Thank you for listening.
Diana I take no offense, everyone has different feelings about feedback. :) As you point out we don’t know what is going on in others’ lives I think being open is a wonderful philosophy. Seems like renku stretches our brains and hearts to entertain others’ perspectives, which helps us learn in many ways.
ps I forgot to mention I love “Grave of the Fireflies” “fireflies” is a midsummer kigo, “fireflies in autumn” is a kigo as well.
Congratulations both for your wonderful verses!
Orense, yours made me smile. Thankyou.
Thank you Melissa:)
Congratulations, Orense and Rob, on your wonderful spring links! Great selections, Lorin!
evening star
just in time for
the frogs frogs frogs
– Orense
and/or
a kite frolics
this way
and that
– Rob Barkan
the drip
of an IV
the small moans
of hospital patients
in the hallway
shuffling slippers
a call-nurse bell
always dinging
elevator doors
open and shut
Lorin, Orense, Rob: a wonderful, unique #9! Thanks–
*
evening star
just in time for
the frogs frogs frogs
Orense
*
watching the fugitive
disappear in a crowd
*
three cheers join the hats
in the air
**
a kite frolics
this way
and that
Rob Barkan
*
the everywhere and nowhere
of a quantum cat
**
a kite frolics
this way
and that
– Rob Barkan
embers burn
near and far
Diana Ming Jeong
Lorin, I appreciate how much you have put your heart and soul into these renku sessions, making it a fun and creative endeavor. I apologize for the times I have been a thorn in your side. Orense and Rob, your spring verses are enchanting…perfect. So many amazing poems submitted throughout these weeks have brought joy to many hearts. John Stevenson’s Renku Sessions are a welcomed and vital service for many poets from all over the world. Lorin, I know your stepping in and filling the role of Sabaki has been a much appreciated gift to the community . I will bow out. Best wishes for everyone here.
Madeleine… ❤️
Ditto: Madeleine 💕
❤️ Thank you, Pamela
❤️ Thank you Diana.
Madeleine, I’m sure many of us have been more than appreciative of your heartfelt comments.
The only think I can say is you have been more of a little spikelet, than a thorn, to spur many of us on.
Renku sessions are supposed to be for fun, Madelaine, keep posting, enjoy.
Perhaps since I have been in the throes of life and death over here in Southern California and seeing people come together to help each other even after they have lost their homes and their people to the fires, it was quite the shock to read “So please, I beg of you : just shut up! Write & post your verses, but just shut up otherwise. I’ve had enough of you, Madeleine.” and other similar comments aimed at Madeleine, when I myself, like Rob said, have committed similar posts whether I knew what I was talking about or not, mostly likely not. And, like Rob, I have turned the other cheek, but it really hurts my heart. I am doing my best to follow the rules. But fires do not follow the rules and so they rage out of control… It’s the people who come together to stand together is what our community is and should be about.
Thank you Diana for this beautiful expression that I relate to profoundly.
Diana, I’m sorry to shock and upset you. I certainly understand how the terrible fires (that I saw on TV) affect people. I have lived through bushfires (in the USA I believe they’re called wildfires) when I lived in the country, but not a city fire like this recent one where you are. I’m glad that it is under control now.
Yes, in both cases, people come together and even children have a role.
You, and others, may have “committed similar posts” but not to the extent Madeleine did, nor do I recall you continuing and continuing, as Madeleine did, after I asked her to stop.
Coming together and standing together is important.
Pamela and Lorin,
I can’t seem to directly reply to your comments, but thank you both very much. I appreciate it.
The fires are still not contained but are getting closer to containment. There is very much that cannot be expressed into words. This morning, Good Morning America broadcast live from our church. They say the name of our church starting here: https://youtu.be/JNvtFp7o_5c?si=fv83lycByKMnbh23&t=1958
What has gotten me emotional is that Aloe Blacc sang his beautiful song today to America in the very place where I sing every Sunday. This has made me quite emotional, and I am sorry but I hope its ok to share this link so you can see how beautiful our sanctuary is.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f-hh–BdhGU
I am trying to write a non-season verse to connect to 9a and 9b, but my words are not working… maybe I can by Sunday.
God Bless you all.
Diana
Diana, thank you for your generosity of spirit.
Thank you for your generosity of spirit, Diana.
“So please, I beg of you : just shut up! Write & post your verses, but just shut up otherwise. I’ve had enough of you, Madeleine.” – Diana
Diana, just to be clear: I did end up saying “just shut up”. I had tried all other ways to make the request to Madeleine and I was at the end of my tether. Madelaine had ignored my small requests, over and over and over. I believe she did so purposefully, not accidentally and I believe she encouraged others to follow her way. There are limits.
(and it had nothing to do with fires: Madelaine had continued posting greetings and verses one at a time and encouraged others to respond long before the fires had started. It’s all archived. You can check. )
Thank you for lifting my spirits, Carol.
Carol, I am so appreciative of your encouraging message…your poetry and others’ poetry here cause me great delight. I am touched by the term “spikelet”. 🙂 I couldn’t help but smile!
Thank you Madeleine :)
I feel like there was a communication failure between you and Lorin. I am certain you did not intend any offense and your enthusiasm and passion for renku is a beautiful thing.
From what I can gather from my limited experience of the renku sessions, it seems like your encouraging and uplifting comments were common practice in previous renku and many were participating in such a way for the first few links of this renku. This level of commenting died down somewhat as the renku progressed and you were almost alone in your continued engagement which is admirable. This left you singled out as Lorin made her wishes known, which is to avoid cluttering up the feed with too many “extraneous” comments.
Since this activity seems to be what the modus operandi was under the previous sabaki I can understand you not immediately grasping the limits Lorin was trying to set. Too many is a subjective thing. Lorin’s remarks also apply to most participants in the renku including me and it is always an adjustment working with someone new.
I see no reason for you to bow out, given how much you love renku it would be a shame for you not to participate. Now that all of us understand Lorin’s wishes we can move forward and experience this new process for the renku. I hope you will still be part of the journey with your infectious enthusiasm only slightly calibrated to fit Lorin’s frame;)
Thank you.