re:Virals 413

This Post Has 27 Comments

1. Comments on this are now closed. Time to move on.

2. Thank you to all those who took time to provide commentary. I particularly enjoyed Dan’s list, especially number 6!
   And thank you, also, to those who provided further comments (well, most of them anyway!).

   So, to THAT comment. I first saw it at the weekend, and was too upset at the time to read any further. Not liking a poem is fine, we can’t all like the same things. Constructive criticism is fine too. But being openly rude – cruel, even – is unacceptable. I now see, further down, that an apology was later given. Alas, the damage was already done. I hope the person concerned will engage brain cells in future before typing.

   Someone else was a little rude about my grasp of English. A tad ironic, considering the repeated misspelling of my name.

   As for what I think of the suggested revision, I’ll be equally blunt: not a lot. Having “they” instead of “it” in line 3 both looks and sounds, to me anyway, incredibly clumsy. I guess we’ll just have to agree to disagree on the subject.

   1. I’m sorry, Tracy: by the time I saw it, the post had been up more than half a day. I had to decide whether to excise it or leave it. In the event, I think it rebounded on the poster; rightly so. Possibly the rest of us were retargeting our asteroids!

   2. I do apologize. I would have removed the comments had I been able. (If Keith wishes to do it, with an explanation that I requested he do so because it was truly objectionable and pursuant comments related to *that* I strongly urge him to do that.

      As I have apparently disgraced myself with this community, meaning any additional posts I offer will be forever tainted by one mistake, I will withdraw.

      Best wishes to all,

      Dmitri

      1. Because other comments relate to it, that would be difficult. I’ll think about it if there’s time.

         I appreciate that a nom-de-plume might free a commenter a little, just as it might help to detach a verse from its author (if well-known, or maybe anxious to avoid alienating an editor). All the same, comments “may be as long or short, academic or spontaneous, serious or silly, public or personal as you like. All with respect for the poet.”

         The THF code of conduct is available under the ‘About’ section of the menu. It includes:

         “We want our site to be the kind of place where people can have spirited discussions and yet still be considerate of each other.

         Comments should be diplomatic and respectful. Please attempt to make your comments constructive and of the type that you would like to hear yourself.”

         These are good principles. I am keen to encourage genuine discussion of haiku and senryu, for the benefit of writers and readers all, and don’t want to inhibit constructive criticism nor promote speciously effusive praise. I like a little mischief myself. But please, remember that it is not easy for poets to have work criticised insensitively.

         I also edited a commentary to avoid political polarisation, while keeping the thrust of it….

3. Dan Campbell, extremely well done! I loved your take on this poem!!

   1. Thank you Jennifer!!

4. A totally different take on the senryu, which struck me immediately (not the asteroid, though), was that I understood the feeling of wishing a do- over. It also reminded me of a novel, Shrader Marks: Keelhouse. It’s actually two novels in one about an asteroid that is about to hit near Antarctica and a group of New York sailors sailing toward Labrador to escape the upheaval to come. Every time I hear about the near misses (and the one that didn’t affecting the dinosaurs) of asteroids, I remember that book. I didn’t think it was the type of commentary Virals is about, but I have to say I liked the senryu and understand the feeling behind it. I, like Eavonka, like dark humor so appreciate what Tracey wrote.

5. near-miss asteroid
   sometimes I wish
   it wouldn’t miss

   Mug shots and bad moods aside, an interesting question comes up:
   “[is it ] enough to get the idea of what a writer is trying to say” and put aside *how* a poem is written? I’ll back into it . . .

   It is hard to know just how to locate the first line— “near miss-asteroid”. Clearly, if the writer had offered an article, e.g., “a near-miss asteroid”, the rest would make no sense.

   Part of the difficulty (at least for some readers) may be that one is somewhat used to haiku/senryu being written without an article, something which Paul O. Williams, many years ago, called “Tontoism” .He wasn’t pleased.

   And being used to it—to Tontoism— one may assume at first that this is what has happened here— the article has been left out and is implied. But surely that cannot be the case.. Still, one may have to go through a mis-reading in order to get to what the author intends.

   (And that in itself is an interesting thing— when, in a piece where it is likely to happen, does a mis-reading add value and when is it merely an obstacle to be worked around. I could be wrong, but I don’t believe the author of “near-miss asteroid” intended the kind of deliberate disorientation that a mis-reading may lead to.)

   So what *is* “near-miss asteroid?” The third line refers back to it as, just that— “it”. Yes, one knows what is meant, we get it, but the question is: does it matter, from the standpoint of *writing*, that the “it” of the third line refers back to something that has no specific “itness,” or at least not the kind that could smash into the planet (or a particular mug).

   I begin to feel a bit foolish talking this way, but I guess I sympathize somewhat with Dimitri Parseff’s concerns.

   I will weigh in on the question (and hasn’t it come up here before?)—while in conversation it may not matter how something is articulated as long as one’s meaning (through non-verbal means, perhaps) is at least felt, or intuited— but writing is another matter. The words have to stand on their own. (And yes, there are non-verbal elements such as music that convey much of a poem’s meaning, but one has to end one’s already convoluted musings somewhere.)

   Here is William’s piece on “Tontoism” from a number of years ago:

   https://www.graceguts.com/further-reading/tontoism-in-american-haiku

   1. Peter, I read line #1 as I’d read a news headline: ‘near-miss asteroid’. I’d actually like it better if it was printed like a headline: Near-miss Asteroid
      The only problem I have with this senryu is the use of the singular pronoun ‘it’ in L3. Easily fixed:
      Near-miss Asteroid
      sometimes I wish
      they wouldn’t miss (Tracey Davidson) –
      .
      I have more of a problem with Beata’s introduction:
      “Beata writes:

      “The Perseids still can be seen in August and then we look skyward more often.” – Beata Czeszejko

      Who are ‘we’? I certainly don’t look skyward more often in August. Too cold, too cloudy, too rainy.
      I look forward to the official beginning of Spring in just 5 days from now.

      But (sigh) I suppose I just have to accept that many in Europe and in North America, many in the whole Northern hemisphere, actually, still appear to be adherents of the flat earth theory.

      1. Dimitri/Lorin: I feel this is getting somewhat pernickety — straining at a gnat. There are asteroids that narrowly miss Earth all the time, and some that occasionally hit. Most burn up in the atmosphere. The opening line “near-miss asteroid” simply sets the scene in terms such as might be read in a headline of any reputable news outlet (as you note, Lorin). If you’re advocating a return to capitalisations as we older people were taught in school, well, that’s going to affect a lot of current haiku.

         The poet’s choice of “asteroid” as compared with “meteor,” “meteorite” or “shooting star” suggests one of the larger and potentially more damaging space rocks, of course, such as the one that caused a fireball at Chelyabinsk ten years ago. And even as large as the one believed to have brought about the major extinction of dinosaurs.

         So here we infer “another” near-miss asteroid as “it,” in everyday language that people other than literary critics use, although more musical. That’s all.

         I liked Beata’s consideration of a wide range of asteroids and effects, from ominous to positive wishes. The ku allows more scope than I first thought.

6. Re Opening Comment:
   I wish more senryu would be written in one part, but this verse works as a haiku.
   A ‘near-miss asteroid’ is an event worthy of an exclamatory cut.

   I also found something in ‘wish’ing on a star.

   1. simonj: Thanks. I’m inclined to agree that the cut helps, and likewise savour the permutations on wishing upon a star.

7. I’ve been a huge fan of this poem each of the times I’ve seen it (Haiku In Action, Failed Haiku, and now here). Dark humor appeals to me and frankly, I wish there were more of it in haikai. Also, poetry is meant to give voice to that which strongly resonates, and Tracy is so successful in that regard.

   Gatekeepers who refuse to allow this poetic form to expand make no sense to me. We’re all allowed our personal preferences, but my goodness, keep it respectful.

8. Aargh.

   From the top of the page:

   “Welcome to re:Virals, The Haiku Foundation’s weekly commentary feature on some of your favorites among the best contemporary haiku and senryu written in English”

   Well, one can only hope.

   near-miss asteroid
   sometimes I wish
   it wouldn’t miss

   Worst of all with this is that it is flat out badly written. As it is, it gives the impression that the “near-miss asteroid” comes again and again (and near-misses each time).

   I propose that the opening to re:Virals be changed to “featuring some of the best and some of the worst contemporary haiku and senryu, giving you the opportunity to comment in either case . . .”.

   1. How many ‘i’s in dimitri?

      Note that the rubric says “some of your favourites,” and commentators have differing favourites. Why not try submitting a detailed commentary, better than the others, and then you can put forward one of your favourites? For the record, the criteria are:

      “The chosen verse should be:

      — of good quality (published in an edited publication — full reference for publication, poet and date)

      — written by the poet in English

      — contemporary (by a poet within our lifetime)

      — third party (not yours nor mine)

      Should you wish to offer something innovative or out of the ordinary, that would be welcome. “

      1. Keith (and M.R.)–

         I grew up Dmitri but have been trying out Dimitri because occasionally people stumble over the original.

         I see I have offended people. I could have been more tactful, but at times my impulses get the better of me, and I had
         just been looking at a certain mug shot which put me in a bad mood. No excuses. Apologies.

         Here’s how I read the poem:

         “near miss asteroid” seems to refer to a specific, singular, asteroid. Following that, the “it” refers to that same asteroid.

         To my way of seeing the poem might have been more clearly and effectively written “a near-miss asteroid/ sometimes I wish/ it hadn’t missed”

         The line “near miss asteroid” is vague, and does not seem rooted in the poem itself, but hovers above it, sort of how a title
         does.

         With haiku/senryu I often get the impression that some readers feel it is enough to get the idea of what a writer is trying to say and feel that this is good enough, regardless of the quality of the writing itself.

         1. No offense taken, hopefully by me or the writer, but thanks for clarifying! More explanation is always better, as discussion offers the most benefit. You want the asteroid to be in the past tense in the poem because you prefer that particular perspective, but what if the asteroid is in transit to us? Sometimes, we hear about these beforehand, knowing it will miss in advance. While I enjoy this poem, it’s not my favorite layout. I like Keith’s version, where there is no break within the poem, which is acceptable in senryu but rarely done. Even I sometimes find myself rearranging a poem for the sake of a break, but if it says what it needs to say, what’s the point?

         2. In this instance, it was good enough for the editors of Haiku in Action and for Bryan Rickert as editor of July’s Failed Haiku, Dimitri. Two publications one admires for their dynamism, open-mindedness and willingness to accept a wide variety of senryu.

            I do see quite a few verses published which contain spelling or grammatical errors, and sometimes semantic ambiguities. Indeed, I have seen verses with words repeated to trick a reader, verses that bear little relation to normal grammatical speech, and verses that are totally baffling to any logical understanding, sometimes even gibberish. But that to me is a minor matter compared with the enthusiasm and ideas which haikuists bring to the genre.

            And I can see how the mugshot might be unsettling…

   2. Dimitri, you should have provided your criticism constructively as commentary. We aren’t required to love any poem, but we do need to be respectful. What is poorly written about it, or are you just unhappy with its content? There is a difference. It’s a senryu that we can all probably relate to at some point in our lives, whether literally or humorously. There haven’t really been any “near” misses, but a few were relatively close. It could also be a reflection on a single asteroid that was a near miss. When things aren’t going well or the world is in chaos, you might think, well, I wish it hadn’t missed. Human disappointment and disgust are undoubtedly cyclical.

   3. Temper, temper, Dmitri. 🙂 (Please go back to your given name’s original spelling, Dmitri. Dimitrihas the disadvantage of possibly implying that you’re a bit ‘dim’ and you’re not… quite bright, actually. )

      near-miss asteroid
      sometimes I wish
      it wouldn’t miss

      ” As it is, it gives the impression that the “near-miss asteroid” comes again and again (and near-misses each time). ” – Dmitri

      You’re right, it does. I agree. And Tracey doesn’t have the excuse of English not being her first language. It can’t be denied that “it” implies one thing/one item. All that’s needed to fix the problem is the third person pronoun :

      near-miss asteroid
      sometimes I wish
      they wouldn’t miss

      This is probably it: “Airplane-sized asteroid found 2 days after brush by Earth”

      “Asteroid hidden by sun’s glare

      On July 15, 2023, the ATLAS observatory in South Africa discovered an asteroid up to 200 feet (60 m) in size two days after it passed closest to Earth. Astronomers designated the asteroid 2023 NT1. And NASA called it airplane-sized. Compare 2023 NT1 to the asteroid that hit Arizona some 50,000 years ago, leaving the large, famous Barringer Crater, aka Meteor Crater. The asteroid that made Meteor Crater might have been only slightly smaller (about 160 feet or 50 m in size). The newly discovered asteroid passed within only one-quarter the moon’s distance. It came closest to Earth at 10:12 UTC on July 13, 2023. ” https://earthsky.org/space/asteroid-2023-nt1-close-call-earth-july-13-2023/
      That’d be Friday, July 13th AEST. Whoo! What, me superstitious?
      –

      1. Yes. As I said, no excuses, but I was in an awful knot yesterday and took it out on this poem. Apologies again, to Tracy Davidson.

         I do wonder what Tracy makes of the revisions that have been offered. Or some of the criticism– ignoring my initial response, please.

         Dim Mee Tree

9. I sure did enjoy reading all of the comments, especially the one from Nairithi, thank you Nairithi!

   1. I enjoy your original contributions to this feature, Dan. Keep ’em coming!

   2. Loved your list of reasons and I suspect we all have a few more of our own we could add to the list Dan.

   3. Thank you, Dan!

   4. I enjoy the variety in your commentaries, Dan.

Comments are closed.