Is the Clock Ticking on Haiku?

[AlanSummers]

Hi Don,

you said:

Hi Alan,

The following is a quote from you on another thread; it represents my pondering very well and is at the root of my inquiry with this current thread.  Your comment is:

"Good points John, but I have an aversion to silent and silence. ;-)  They are now overused in haiku, I've thousands and thousands using those two words and variations on it.

...etc (text removed by me (Don) as it isn't necessary in regards to this chat)

Alan

http://www.thehaikufoundation.org/forum_sm/mentoring-beginner/wind-chimes/


With the thought that haiku are very short (at 11 words or so) and that we are already reaching a point of redundancy, I wonder how long it will be before we reach a place where we cannot write a fresh haiku without including words now "over-used".  Considering that there are currently a large number of words/phrases already on the cliche list, are we on the verge of losing the freshness of language in haiku?  Is it going to be impossible in the nearing future to write original haiku without drastically changing its shape and/or rules?  Is the clock ticking on ELH, actually?

Just pondering ... and I'm still writing, hopefully, new and fresh haiku.

Don

I should have typed that I have read thousands and thousands, not written them.  This is why typos are such a bugbear with me, even when I'm a culprit. ;-)

Haiku is no different from other poetry: we can choose to be unimaginative, used regularly used words and phrases thinking a cliché is a clever shortcut for the reader.

Or we can strive to bring something fresh to the pot.

The clock is always ticking in one manner or another.  Poetry has been regularly named dead or terminal by the Press, and inbetween it's been called the new Rock n' Roll. ;-)  When Murray Lachlan Young got a million pound contract as a poet a lot of people thought this was poetry's chance to hit the mainstream once again: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/4606658.stm

I'm always surprised when a big personality comes along and revitalises the form itself, or revitalises its popularity.  I remember thinking music was dead back in the 70s and then hearing the Sex Pistols off someone's walkman at a train station and getting excited.  This was when I was in security training and had become conservative. ;-)  Lady Gaga does it again for music which was getting tired and formulaic, at least in the mainstream.

Paul Reps did it for haiku years ago, and Nick Virgilio was on the verge of becoming a huge national TV and radio star (and was already a big name).  We get Paul Muldoon and Seamus Heaney trying it with haiku, but it fails.  Especially Paul Muldoon who over-clevers haiku to the extent that even he can't call it haiku anymore, despite being published by Modern Haiku.

The clock is always ticking, but haiku has its strength in always being transmedia so it is unlikely it will die off.  Even the current Japanese haiku writer poet-in-residence in France is thinking of using txt message haiku (but without the txt slang) for people in Japan.

Gabi mentions new kigo are constantly going into saijiki in Japan such as energy saving. I've said somewhere else, new technology will create new images in haiku, and this happened back in Japan's enforced rapid industrialisation.

It's why I get frustrated when I see Victorianesque poesie forced into supposed haiku constructs, and it's those that get seen by the public and the literary world at large.

I only have to read Helen Buckingham's haiku and senryu to know good hardworking writers are still producing remarkably fresh and thoughtful work that resonante hours and days beyond their reading:
http://area17.blogspot.com/2010/06/water-on-moon-haiku-collection-by-helen.html

I am amazed that this Touchstone shortlisted collection didn't make it to the final selection.  When people, both poets and the public buy it, they come back to buy more copies because friends and families need to  read it.

I've supported a wider appreciation of haiku for nearly twenty years, and have probably interacted with poets and public in their tens of thousands by now.  Just as a clock always technically ticks and tocks, so will haiku.

Alan

[Gabi Greve]

NHK television has a regular haiku program every week.
There is one kigo given each week and more than a few thousend people send their haiku with this kigo. They are published in the NHK magazine ... and everyone enjoys reading it.

There are no clichees with kigo, but there has to be a new angle around it, a new aspect, new situation, fresh moment, a new LIFE around the old kigo.
This is where the poet has to show his mettle (do you use this expression in English?) .

Gabi
(just back online after a blackout after a strong thunderstorm ...)

[AlanSummers]

Hi Gabi,

I think I agree that there is no cliché as such with a kigo itself, although we can't interpret what every Japanese, and every non-Japanese person will experience when reading just the kigo on its own.

A poet does indeed need to prove their mettle (haven't heard that expression for years <grin>, and I would have thought that was the only way to prevent the kigo from falling into either disuse or cliché.

This is what is good about the Vancouver Cherry Blossom Haiku Competition, because the demand is for freshness in a haiku about cherry blossom. ;-)

Alan

NHK television has a regular haiku program every week.
There is one kigo given each week and more than a few thousend people send their haiku with this kigo. They are published in the NHK magazine ... and everyone enjoys reading it.

There are no clichees with kigo, but there has to be a new angle around it, a new aspect, new situation, fresh moment, a new LIFE around the old kigo.
This is where the poet has to show his mettle (do you use this expression in English?) .

Gabi
(just back online after a blackout after a strong thunderstorm ...)

[chibi575]

ticktockticktockticktock... an MP3 audio download

Alan and Gabi... good reads both, forever thankful for your replies.  Not to slight the other active membership... thankful for the activity, always.

There is an battery powered geared clock on the wall in our rented condo.  At night, a little after two in the morning, (after the two closeby bars close) the downstairs is quiet except for the tick-tock-tick-tock of that clock.  If sleep evades me, occasionaly, I will slip downstairs and accompany that clock's metronomic beat, with the creak rick-rock of a wicker rocking chair.  As sleep steals away the rocker's sway, my snores soon replace the wicker rocker's creak.

in a dream...
an apps sensitive to sway
produces birdsongs

::)

[AlanSummers]

Love the prose and haiku.  Is this an iPhone apps?  I know a haiku writer shouldn't be without one, but I didn't figure you'd be twice double cool by having one too.

Thanks for the praise re the comments, I won't take it an ego way, but as gentle encouragement to continue on a long but forever interesting kigo path.

The more I hear about kigo the more it needs to stay essential in both Japanese and non-Japanese haiku, but I can understand why many Japanese writers are not happy with kigo.

I think it has come close to control freakism and cliché, and we need constructive kigo rebels to keep it from degenerating in use and understanding.

Alan

[Gabi Greve]

.
first picked tea -
the geiger counter keeps ticking
and ticking

http://japan-afterthebigearthquake.blogspot.com/2011/05/may-17-tuesday.html

te hajime 手始（てはじめ）first picking (of tea leaves)
ichibancha 一番茶（いちばんちゃ）first picked tea
nibancha 二番茶（にばんちゃ）second picked tea
sanbancha 三番茶（さんばんちゃ）third picked tea
yobancha 四番茶（よばんちゃ）fourth picked tea

and more kigo
http://haikuandhappiness.blogspot.com/2008/05/fresh-tea.html

Gabi

[Lorin]

As to words and phrases associated with nature and seasonal shifts, I support seeking the deepness in experiences as may be found in a saijiki.  Sometimes, exploring these can give insight and open up the word or phrase to ones personal moment.  In a way, I've always looked at the saijiki (or equivalent) as opening more interpretation rather than a restrictive codex as sometimes it is interpreted.


Ciao... chibi

Dennis, your point here about 'seeking deepness' is on the same page, is connected to, my concern that in EL haiku we are using, for the most part, kigo ( Japanese) that we don't truly understand.  There is no blame in this lack of understanding, since what appears to be the essential part of kigo, the hon'i ( 'legitimate meaning' in Kawamoto's terminology) has not been widely discussed in English. Though the real saijiki (Japanese) has, I believe, references which make the hon'i of each kigo clear, there are no EL translations of these real saijiki.

The result is that we don't actually use kigo (those we inherit from the Japanese) as such, but as seasonal references. When we attempt to make our own regional 'saijiki' we may be listing what happens when in our locality but such 'kigo' do not have the heart of true kigo: that is, the depth of the shared cultural meaning.

I've been thinking about what seem to me to be odd responses to my various posts on the subject of kigo vs EL season word/ reference and I feel that my concerns have been reacted to rather than considered and understood. I am not against kigo. I am aware that my understanding of kigo is shallow, and I'm aware that I'm certainly not alone in that. I look forward to the day when I'll have the opportunity to deepen my understanding. Until then, since the resources are not available, I am against the gung-ho attitude that inspires people to gloss over the fact of the hon'i (essential meaning, legitimate meaning, true intention) in Japanese haiku. I have nothing against new lists of 'season words/ seasonal references' in English (what happens when, where; information about)...they are useful. But calling such lists 'saijiki' only serves to cover up the fact that there is something essential to our understanding of kigo missing, and to perpetuate our naive use of seasonal references as if they were kigo. If we are not using kigo as kigo in EL haiku (and it is only by chance or by intuition that the majority of us sometimes do) then we should be aware of this.

EL 'kigo' is very much a case of the Emperor parading around naked, thinking he's wearing fine new clothes.

""The death of haiku:  is it imminent due to lack of kigo and new words?" – Don

I don't see the immanent 'death of haiku', Don. I believe that we have barely scratched the surface in EL haiku. A better and deeper understanding of kigo would be one thing, I believe,that would open new opportunities and challenges for EL haiku. But we need the co-operation of translators from the Japanese for that. I see no use in longer and longer lists of kigo without the essential information about hon'i included.

"Or we can strive to bring something fresh to the pot." - Alan

Yes, I believe that innovations of various kinds are possible in EL haiku, but that a better understanding of kigo would in itself open fresh and challenging fields for EL haiku as well as provide a foundation for the possible development of something like a EL counterpart of saijiki.


- Lorin

[AlanSummers]

Nice post Gabi,

I wonder what will come out of the, what I call quintuple, disasters that Japan faced, and are still facing?

As Croatian people used haiku to vividly portray the inhumanness of internecine warfare, what will be the new wave of haiku relating to the disasters in Japan?

Kuniharu is also showing some good material, and new ways of using kigo from Japan will only add to our possible use of kigo in the West.  Even if that takes 30, 50, 80 years or more.

After all, at some point in kigo history, pre-kigo, someone, and a small group of someones, started off what wasn't kigo, but became the system we now see.

Also, the New Wave haiku writers who rebel against kigo, and that hasn't really been discussed enough yet, will show that kigo has possibly been over-centralised in Japan maybe?

And the New Wave haiku writers who do use kigo but are trying maybe to make it more applicable to contemporary society?  That was the contemporary society pre earthquake/tsunami/radiation/powercuts/break down/increased distrust in politicians and top bureaucrats/trade/shift in culture with young school girls and those who have just left school/youth in general?

So much will change.  Who is now the haiku writers to watch, both young and upcoming, the new voice, and the established ones that get down and dirty and capture what's happening at ground roots?

Alan

.
first picked tea -
the geiger counter keeps ticking
and ticking

http://japan-afterthebigearthquake.blogspot.com/2011/05/may-17-tuesday.html

te hajime 手始（てはじめ）first picking (of tea leaves)
ichibancha 一番茶（いちばんちゃ）first picked tea
nibancha 二番茶（にばんちゃ）second picked tea
sanbancha 三番茶（さんばんちゃ）third picked tea
yobancha 四番茶（よばんちゃ）fourth picked tea

and more kigo
http://haikuandhappiness.blogspot.com/2008/05/fresh-tea.html

Gabi

[Don Baird]

The interplay and information/ideas within this thread is very interesting and informative.  The subject of EL Kigo would be another fantastic thread just on its own - where Japanese kigo could be compared with EL Kigo as to the differences, if any, in contemporary times. And, would a EL Saijiki (complete hon'i) help us out?

I view kigo as an expansion; it's far more than a season word.  I see it as a indicator, like the tip of an iceberg with so much more in the resonance that will surface with greater pondering and understanding.  It's a word of wealth; of abundance.  It's an inclusive word rather than exclusive.  And, it resonates beyond the ink on a page into the realm of raw thought, memory, association, and vivid images.

I wonder Gabi, if you would like to start a new post called something like Japanese Kigo and Its English Language Counterpart.  Something along that line?  Just thinking out loud. It could be a wonderful exploration of the qualities of kigo and how we can relate them to EL Haiku in the most traditional way possible.

"I don't see the immanent 'death of haiku', Don. I believe that we have barely scratched the surface in EL haiku. A better and deeper understanding of kigo would be one thing, I believe,that would open new opportunities and challenges for EL haiku. But we need the co-operation of translators from the Japanese for that. I see no use in longer and longer lists of kigo without the essential information about hon'i included." lorin

I agree fully, Lorin ... and yet wonder at the same time - "is the clock ticking and will we have to change haiku in English radically to keep up with the tick"?  And, if we don't, will EL Haiku become cliche in general.  Yet, if we change it radically, will what we write still be EL Haiku? Or will it, as chibi mentions from time to time, be a simple short poem.  

Are all EL Haiku cliche?  Is S/L/S already outdated?  Was it ever in?  Is the phrase and frag theory already gone and useless?  Is the basic form of EL Haiku already cliche?  Is that why there are so many people writing non-conforming structure EL Haiku and pressing the very limits of Haiku as a poem structure.  Will there be a traditional structure for haiku in ten years (in EL)?  Or is it already on its way out the door?

Just pondering a bit tonight.

Don

[Gabi Greve]

Or is it already on its way out the door?
Don

As I see it, traditional haiku is out of the EL door, but a lot of interesting short poetry is coming in at the other side of the corridor.

(No time for longer discussions right now, sorry.
The clock of radioactivity is ticking in Japan.)

Gabi

radioactive grass
on the pastures of Fukushima -
go kill the horses

.
http://omamorifromjapan.blogspot.com/2011/07/koma-horses-fukushima.html

.

[AlanSummers]

A few quotes from The Matsuyama Declaration  of 12 September, 1999

Haiku is grasped with all 5 senses, not by logic. Things which logic could not explain might be expressed in haiku. In order to jump over the gap between logic and the senses, unique Japanese rhetorical techniques such as "kireji" and "kigo" were invented.

First of all, the 5-7-5 rhythm is unique to the Japanese language, and even if other languages were to use this rhythm, it is obvious that it would not guarantee the same effect.

Therefore, when haiku spreads to the rest of the world, it is important to treat it as a short-formed poem and to take methods suitable to each language. For a poem to be recognized worldwide as haiku, it must be short-formed and have an essential spirit of haiku.

The 21st century is just around the corner. The haiku world of Japan is filled with countless haiku groups, poets and societies. Haiku continues to live on by simply reproducing the haiku we Japanese have inherited from our ancestors.

On the other hand, modern poetry has endured various trials and tribulations and is sometimes on the brink of stagnation in various parts of the world. Some devoted poets of the world have yearned for haiku, this short poem that is at the forefront of world poetry and offers the highest level of completeness. Haiku provides a means for these poets to break free of this situation. The only way we can return haiku or poetry to the common people is by responding to the wishes of these poets.

We wish to rise above the current situation of the Japanese haiku world where haiku is at once in prosperity and in stagnation at the end of the century. With all earnestness, we watch the growing global awareness of haiku. We announce the Matsuyama Declaration to poets all over the world from this extraordinary site, Matsuyama, where Shiki ignited the haiku reform a century ago by describing it as the "Poetry by the Defeated."

Our purpose is to once again pave the way for new possibilities in poetry.

     Haiku welcomes the world as it faces outward towards the world.

The Matsuyama Declaration  of 12 September, 1999 is a statement made by the following people:

Arima Akito, Minister of Education of Japan
Haga Toru, President of Kyoto University of Art and Design,
Ueda Makato, Professor Emeritus of Stanford University
Soh Sakon, Poet
Kaneko Tohta, President of the Modern Haiku Society
Jean Jacques Origas,  French Oriental Language Research Institute

Explanatory Note:
The original document, written in Japanese, reflects the erudition and depth of thought of the men listed above.  As with translating haiku, it has proved to be a very difficult task to perfectly render  its profound contents into English.  However, in an effort to present it to the international community, we have prepared this provisional translation.

Nishimura Gania                                          Tanaka Kimiyo
                                   Ruth Vergin

[chibi575]

The century has turned.  We're into the second decade by almost two years.  The community of short poetry poets are promoting and absorbing enevitable change.  The new order erodes the old.  Let us hope that where we step now into the undescovered country, we do so with wisdom founded in our past and boldness from our imagination.  "New lamps for old ..."* as the wizard disquised as a beggar proclaims.... "New lamps for old!"  though both should produce light.

*http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aladdin_and_His_Wonderful_Lamp