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The Poetics of (Dis)connection

Started by Beth Vieira, January 26, 2015, 01:22:27 PM

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Lorraine Pester

Quote from: Alan Summers on April 25, 2016, 12:43:25 PM
Lorraine,

Gosh, same here but at university.   This urge to spin a story and not stick to facts even if the genre is non-fiction like history books, newsfeed, safety information, in the interests of the nation etc...

There is a willingness to collaborate with all areas that should tell things accurately but it isn't in the best interests of humanity, be it the humble haiku or straight facts about political elections and such, which Britain is riven through with at the moment.

There is a palpable fear of accuracy, and certainly anyone talking about the 'Truth' is attacked, a lot of precedent for that.

So what is there to fear from the occasional haiku being factual and still remain a poem, or your American Sentences invented by Allen Ginsberg who was a political agitator?

There should be an openness as to how we present our accuracy in poetry, and just help, not hinder that.

I'm moving more and more back into actual experience.   It's vital to me, and how I've seen the world over 25 years, and a body of work wins every time for me.

Whether we don't use juxtaposition at all, or it's so negligible it's barely there, or we use disjunctive practices, link and shift or as Beth Vieira started this correspondence, with
Quote"soku," which refers to a "distant" or "fragmented" link.

shinku (close verse) In renga, a close relationship between two succeeding stanzas. See soku.
soku (distant verse) In renga, a distant relationship between two succeeding stanzas.

or

Soku [Japanese "disparate verse"].
In linked verse, two adjoining stanzas that exhibit a rather distant relationship.
Shinku [Japanese "synchronized verse"].
Two adjoining stanzas (in linked verse) that have a rather close relationship.

Interestingly:
SOKU ZE KU KU SOKU ZE SHIKE JU SO GYO SHIKI YAKU
the emptiness. Emptiness is the form. Sensation, thought, active substance, consciousness
The Prajna Paramita Sutra trans. Snhunryu Suzuki

I don't think governments and various other bodies are comfortable with empty spaces that allow people to think for themselves, after all when democracy was invented Socrates was murdered for believing in it.

Also I don't think we are comfortable with anything that appears asymmetrical and we have to be careful around presenting it.

Alan

Quote from: Lorraine Pester on April 25, 2016, 12:19:38 PM
Alan,

QuoteIn the era of information we are mostly fed disinformation, a series of misdirectional information. Poets are only feared when they speak accurately.  Fictive poetry is fine, but experiential haiku may be the last vestiges of any "it happened" writing as newsfeed plays with our mind maps of what is really happening.

Just wanted to stick my 2 cents in.

First thing that came to mind with the above quote was a quote by Diane Arbus: "I really believe there are things nobody would see if I didn't photograph them." I believe that we, as writers could rewrite her quote: I really believe there are things nobody would see if I didn't write about them. A fellow writer once reminded me that our purpose as writers is to observe and record. I myself have written several short poems in which I am the witness.

The second thing that came to mind occurred in a forum where, for one week a month, you could write anything, as a draft. It was an opportunity to play with forms, to try new stuff without being critted mercilessly. Except...it wasn't. I was trying out American Sentences and someone had suggested it would read better if I made a change. The change would have made the observation untrue, and things on the lake simply didn't happen the way my AS would read. I remember making the comment that the AS was based on many observations, at which point, the poster reminded me that it was not the place of the poet to stick to the facts. Better to have something that never would have happened and have it be a pretty story, than to have it be the truth that no one wanted to deal with. Oh well...

Lorraine

Alan,
I had to smile as I remember the first time that I heard, as a youngster, about the USSR rewriting history to put themselves into better light. In my VERY conservative(Barry Goldwater conservative)family, we were appalled and aghast that any government would do THAT! It was just more justification to be against the commie pinkos.

In my own family, family history was rewritten regularly to accommodate being viewed more normally in spite of extreme disfunction that the adults didn't want anyone to know about. How they saw that as being okay and the Russians as being horrible for doing exactly the same thing is beyond me. Maybe it was a matter of scale. Our small family against a small community in lieu of a world country in a global community. Didn't matter; only made me, disfunctional as I was, eager to find truth that I could depend on. And we wonder about the problems today that children face because it's okay to 'spin.'

Peter Yovu

Came across this thread-- I do occasionally come here if only for old times' sake-- and wish
to say that it began with a poem of mine badly misquoted. I believe the correct version is:

the cold behind a question
stars with eight legs
dangle

--just to set things straight.

AlanSummers

Hi Peter,

Quote from: Peter Yovu on April 25, 2016, 04:12:50 PM
Came across this thread-- I do occasionally come here if only for old times' sake-- and wish
to say that it began with a poem of mine badly misquoted. I believe the correct version is:

the cold behind a question
stars with eight legs
dangle

--just to set things straight.

Quote from: Beth Vieira on January 26, 2015, 01:22:27 PM
I was reading a book called The Pursuit of Loneliness: Chinese and Japanese Nature Poetry in Medieval Japan, ca. 1050-1150 and came across an interesting discussion of the waka-related term "soku," which refers to a "distant" or "fragmented" link. I started playing around with the notion that maybe a new kind of haiku could be written that was really soku. In other words, you take the idea of juxtaposition to the extreme limit, just as Richard Gilbert did with "disjunction," and write poems where the link is distant and dissonant rather than close and consonant. Of course the trick would be to have something that held the poem together even so. In linked verse this is not as much an issue, but with a short poem on its own, there would have to be some effort spent making the poem work without becoming a puzzle for the reader.

There are examples of recent haiku that seem to use disjunction, but people have not connected it to soku as far as I know. For instance, Peter Yovu has a poem in Roadrunner that goes

the cold of a question
stars of eight legs
dangle

I'm not sure if it's the best example to start with, but it does serve the purpose of showing that the juxtaposition truly is just that, two separate things placed in relation. The poem doesn't break apart under the pressure of such a distant link; it is made all the more eerie. The poem uses metaphor liberally to help the overall effect, with the words "cold" and "stars" as sort of mini-disjunctions.

I wonder when people decide about juxtapositions, what the general thought process is and if the idea of a distant link ever comes to mind.

Quote from: Peter Yovu on April 25, 2016, 04:12:50 PM
the cold behind a question
stars with eight legs
dangle

Beth Vieira's quote:
Quote from: Beth Vieira on January 26, 2015, 01:22:27 PM
the cold of a question
stars of eight legs
dangle

Fascinating!   As someone who had to interview a couple of thousand miscreants, the first line(s) ring a bell, although I was more softly, softly.

As much as I liked Beth's misquoted version of the cold of a question Peter Yovu's correct version of his haiku the cold behind a question has intriguing undertones.   Most of us have been interviewed, the correct term for any Q&A session, be it criminal, military, job application etc... at some time.

My most terrifying interview, was an NHK TV producer, with the sun in my face.  She was tiny, like my wife, they make the most proficient interviewers.  But what of those who are truly defenceless, be it in a windowless room, or a urine soaked alley or burnt out apartment, or our mind?

Perhaps Peter's was more innocent, perhaps many of us have that luxury of temporary paralysis of freedom.

What do stars of eight legs mean, is it a constellation rather than a spider, or the Sword of Damocles? Who rewrites or rewires our history?

Alan
Alan Summers,
founder, Call of the Page
https://www.callofthepage.org

AlanSummers

.
Just to add some web places for Peter Yovu's work:

Do Something Different
by Peter Yovu

Juxtaposition

In his essay The Spice of Life, Tom Tico notices the "prevalence" of haiku which begin with an adjective preceded by a noun, as "clear morning" or " Indian summer". A quick scan of recent magazines will show that he is not overstating the case, and that his call for more "variety" is well justified. Much of what I'm saying is an elaboration of his remarks, and in his honour I want to offer a simple challenge: abstain, for a month or two (or until it begins to hurt and withdrawal symptoms set in) from using the adjective/noun first line construction. Do something different.
http://www.poetrysociety.org.nz/node/400

Sunrise by Peter Yovu
book reviews

http://www.poetrysociety.org.nz/node/553
http://www.modernhaiku.org/bookreviews/Yovu2010.html

Youtube:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=znJ05U0ngps

Artisan of the Imagination: An Interview with Peter Yovu
http://ahundredgourds.com/ahg12/expositions02.html


.
Alan Summers,
founder, Call of the Page
https://www.callofthepage.org

Jan Benson


Jan from the rafters, here.

So glad to see Peter stop by. I got excited that he posted.
Maybe he will swing back by.

Peter, your essay "Do Something Different" , devastated me with its truth.
I felt swallowed into the place where haiku lives. I've reread it a few times in the last month.

Also, I've Watched this YouTube Vid which shows how the impact of sounding the words helps the writer "hear" his own words , what the reader might hear.
http://youtu.be/znJ05U0ngps

You're a teacher and a poet we all need more of.
Thank you for being you.

Jan Benson
In Texas
---1st Prize_The Italian Matsuo Basho Award 2016 (Int'l Foreign Language)
---A Pushcart Nominated Poet, (haiku "adobe walls").
---"The poet is accessible, the poet is for everyone." Maya Angelou

Lorraine Pester

Alan,
I just finished reading Peter Yovu's essay 'Do Something Different.' What really got to me was the part about shadows and this part in particular:

QuoteShadow, you might say, is what is not under our conscious control. When we allow something to have its own life without determining, judging, or defining what that life may be, we are open to the mystery of that life, and of our own.

I thought immediately of my author's notes on Guernica. And no, I had not read his essay prior to writing those notes.

I am enjoying considering Peter Yovu's ideas in both articles you linked to. Thanks for the enrichment.

Lorraine

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