Similar lines in haiku

[Carl]

'All art is plagiarism or revolution' so wrote Paul Gaugin.
A recent post on one of the boards threw up an interesting point about which I as a newbie am rather interested. What happens when you write a line or a complete haiku that closely resembles a previously published or unpublished work?
Haiku are by their brevity susceptible to accidental similarities. The advice to newbie poets is to read as many haiku as possible. That is sage advice. It is also a problem. Good lines are taken in by the subconscious and one can find oneself having a line pop up sometime later which you think is a moment of inspiration but is in fact the forgotten line from a previously read work.
I have had great delight in reading back issues of notable haiku magazines. In one such issue there was a raging debate between a reviewer and a well known haiku poet who was accused by the reviewer of publishing a poem closely resembling a previous work. Was there a need to include a note of the previous work or not? It was mooted but never decided.
Is there a need to include a note when the poem is modelled on a previous work? It seems many of the Japanese haiku masters regularly took inspiration or whole lines from previous works. Did they make such acknowledgments? I can't find any reference to them doing so.
I have seen advice to newbie poets to rework previous haiku to get a feeling for content and form. In such cases it is undoubtedly just an exercise and not an invitation to publish works such as 'slightly old/rather old/ really old/extremely old pond, frog/dog/aardvark jumps in, the sound of the water'.
This problem may also account for some poets choosing to become ever more revolutionary in their writing as intimidated by Mons Gaugin. It can lead to what to my novice mind are completely impenetrable haiku that seem to make no sense at all. This in an effort to either get away from the problem or simply explore new forms.
Is there in fact anyway to check one's work for originality? Is this an accepted issue with haiku? What do people do?
I gather that in olden days haiku were written largely for the enjoyment of small social groups where the issue of copyright and accusations of plagiarism were unlikely. Now however (with the evidence of at least one vehement debate in a noted haiku publication albeit rather old) with people more alive to the value of their original work and the EU ever ramping up the matter of copyright what is a struggling poet to do?
I have not perhaps for lack of looking seen this debate much vented on the net. Perhaps it is the elephant/frog in the room/pond.
Any guidance would be much appreciated. As a newbie I accept that I may not have much that is original to say and if someone has said it before and better then what is to be done?
Regards
Carl

[AlanSummers]

Hi Carl,

'All art is plagiarism or revolution' so wrote Paul Gaugin.

When we speak or think we are plagiarising the original speakers and thinkers too. ;)

A recent post on one of the boards threw up an interesting point about which I as a newbie am rather interested. What happens when you write a line or a complete haiku that closely resembles a previously published or unpublished work?

As a deliberate act?

Haiku are by their brevity susceptible to accidental similarities.

And Ira Lightman has proved it happens with much larger poems too.

The advice to newbie poets is to read as many haiku as possible.

I think it's the responsibility of all poets at all their stages to read other poets, and that should include haiku writers.

That is sage advice. It is also a problem.

But so is bad or ineffective poetry if we don't read the work of others.  If it was good enough for Milton, Chaucer, Shakespeare, Basho and everyone after them and they created original works, I think we are safe too. :)

Good lines are taken in by the subconscious and one can find oneself having a line pop up sometime later which you think is a moment of inspiration but is in fact the forgotten line from a previously read work.

This is where we need to read a lot and also double-check our work before we send it out.

I have had great delight in reading back issues of notable haiku magazines. In one such issue there was a raging debate between a reviewer and a well known haiku poet who was accused by the reviewer of publishing a poem closely resembling a previous work. Was there a need to include a note of the previous work or not? It was mooted but never decided.

Are you sure it was an accusation and not part of an article?  I've read a few such things over the years. 

Is there a need to include a note when the poem is modelled on a previous work?

If there's a conscious act to model a haiku on another haiku, and it's an allusion, a different matter, then I'd suggest this is a mistake.  Can you give an example?

It seems many of the Japanese haiku masters regularly took inspiration or whole lines from previous works.

This was before the New Romantics changed everything, and not just in the West, it influenced Japan through the 1850s onwards: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romanticism#Basic_characteristics

Did they make such acknowledgments?

As the haikai and waka poets knew literature and poetry from history right up to their current it wasn't often necessary, but now we are focused on original works, everything has changed.

I can't find any reference to them doing so.

A few books might be of use:
http://www.modernhaiku.org/bookreviews/Carter2011.html
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Haiku-Before-Masters-Translations-Classics-ebook/dp/B005X9BDT0/ref=sr_1_35?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1436193141&sr=1-35&keywords=Basho+haiku
http://www.amazon.co.uk/1020-Haiku-Translation-Heart-Basho/dp/1419627651/ref=sr_1_11?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1436192992&sr=1-11&keywords=Basho+haiku
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Haiku-Handbook-Write-Share-Teach/dp/4770014309/ref=sr_1_58?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1436193274&sr=1-58&keywords=Basho+haiku

Even a well-known poet and haiku writer was simply caught plagiarising his longer poetry, not his haiku.

I have seen advice to newbie poets to rework previous haiku to get a feeling for content and form. In such cases it is undoubtedly just an exercise and not an invitation to publish works such as 'slightly old/rather old/ really old/extremely old pond, frog/dog/aardvark jumps in, the sound of the water'.

I think this is two separate things:

A private exercise to get under the skin of well-written haiku over the years by reworking them. Home use only.

Both serious and comedic nods to Basho's old pond haikai, most of us have done this, and there is this famous book:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/One-Hundred-Frogs-Renga-English/dp/0834801760
http://www.amazon.co.uk/product-reviews/0834803356

Enjoy this too:
http://www.bopsecrets.org/gateway/passages/basho-frog.htm

This problem may also account for some poets choosing to become ever more revolutionary in their writing as intimidated by Mons Gaugin.

That's one view. :)   But writers for hundreds of years have absorbed other writers and transitioned to their own voice.   Fresh approaches are always needed, just as Basho, Shiki, Yamaguchi, Natsuishi, and Tohta etc...

It can lead to what to my novice mind are completely impenetrable haiku that seem to make no sense at all.

Haiku is a genre, not just a form, and just there are certain novels, science fact, and science fiction, and poetry, that is not obvious at first, until we learn to push our reading skills, so haiku can, on occasion, need the reader to be a full participant.

This in an effort to either get away from the problem or simply explore new forms.
Is there in fact anyway to check one's work for originality? Is this an accepted issue with haiku? What do people do?

I was on a panel of judges that voted for part of a bigger computer program that is used in criminal detection, but alas it wasn't popular.   It would have been amazing to analyse at least a million haiku and haikai. :)

I gather that in olden days haiku were written largely for the enjoyment of small social groups where the issue of copyright and accusations of plagiarism were unlikely.

Do you mean last century, as haiku is barely 140 years old in Japan, and a hundred years outside Japan?  If we include haikai verses, hokku etc... then people knew previous haikai and other literature and would appreciate all the allusions, and using large parts of previous poems or works of literature - much easier in Japanese than other languages.

Now however (with the evidence of at least one vehement debate in a noted haiku publication albeit rather old) with people more alive to the value of their original work and the EU ever ramping up the matter of copyright what is a struggling poet to do?

A struggling poet, well most poets don't make a lot of money, but we do work hard keeping on top of developments, and read, read, read, and buy other poets' books too. :)

Just enjoy reading lot of different types of poetry, and also of literature.

I have not perhaps for lack of looking seen this debate much vented on the net. Perhaps it is the elephant/frog in the room/pond.

Most of us keep ourselves well-read.   There is a wealth of material on the internet, but it means hours of work, sometimes each day.  As a jobbing poet, whether paid or not, I have to read a lot to stay aware of developments in haiku etc...

Any guidance would be much appreciated. As a newbie I accept that I may not have much that is original to say and if someone has said it before and better then what is to be done?
Regards
Carl

Gosh, you are hard on yourself.  :)  We all bring something to haiku, your voice is different, we need different voices.

warm regards,

Alan


QUOTE IN FULL

'All art is plagiarism or revolution' so wrote Paul Gaugin.
A recent post on one of the boards threw up an interesting point about which I as a newbie am rather interested. What happens when you write a line or a complete haiku that closely resembles a previously published or unpublished work?
Haiku are by their brevity susceptible to accidental similarities. The advice to newbie poets is to read as many haiku as possible. That is sage advice. It is also a problem. Good lines are taken in by the subconscious and one can find oneself having a line pop up sometime later which you think is a moment of inspiration but is in fact the forgotten line from a previously read work.
I have had great delight in reading back issues of notable haiku magazines. In one such issue there was a raging debate between a reviewer and a well known haiku poet who was accused by the reviewer of publishing a poem closely resembling a previous work. Was there a need to include a note of the previous work or not? It was mooted but never decided.
Is there a need to include a note when the poem is modelled on a previous work? It seems many of the Japanese haiku masters regularly took inspiration or whole lines from previous works. Did they make such acknowledgments? I can't find any reference to them doing so.
I have seen advice to newbie poets to rework previous haiku to get a feeling for content and form. In such cases it is undoubtedly just an exercise and not an invitation to publish works such as 'slightly old/rather old/ really old/extremely old pond, frog/dog/aardvark jumps in, the sound of the water'.
This problem may also account for some poets choosing to become ever more revolutionary in their writing as intimidated by Mons Gaugin. It can lead to what to my novice mind are completely impenetrable haiku that seem to make no sense at all. This in an effort to either get away from the problem or simply explore new forms.
Is there in fact anyway to check one's work for originality? Is this an accepted issue with haiku? What do people do?
I gather that in olden days haiku were written largely for the enjoyment of small social groups where the issue of copyright and accusations of plagiarism were unlikely. Now however (with the evidence of at least one vehement debate in a noted haiku publication albeit rather old) with people more alive to the value of their original work and the EU ever ramping up the matter of copyright what is a struggling poet to do?
I have not perhaps for lack of looking seen this debate much vented on the net. Perhaps it is the elephant/frog in the room/pond.
Any guidance would be much appreciated. As a newbie I accept that I may not have much that is original to say and if someone has said it before and better then what is to be done?
Regards
Carl

[PAllen]

An interesting read:
http://www.graceguts.com/essays/selected-examples-of-deja-ku


With that being said – consider:
A successful one-page/one-word haiku: tundra
http://www.haikupoet.com/definitions/davidson_def.html


Take a look at page 20 of the following link:
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=25&ved=0CDUQFjAEOBQ&url=http%3A%2F%2Fweb.mit.edu%2Felizqian%2FPublic%2Fjunction_misc%2FHaiku.pdf&ei=oq6aVaDqLIKJoQTVqL3gCQ&usg=AFQjCNGf4lEaqgDp5zlc05QXjZBGGIH3zQ


Now consider the entry by Tom Paining:
http://www.thehaikufoundation.org/haikunow-awards-for-2012/

[Carl]

Hi Alan
Thank you so much for your in depth reply. I will read all of the links and take all of the advice onboard, thank you. To answer the direct points.
Similarities can happen deliberately and inadvertently. My snail verse was influenced on reading Virgilio's 'lily' poem. If ever I intended to submit that I would inform the editor. No doubt an 'after Virgilio' tag may be appropriate. But where does similar end?
How do we double check our work against inadvertent copying? Is a simple google, yahoo search sufficient?
The debate was quite raw it certainly wasn't an article!
My snail poem after Virgilio is an example of what I had in mind.
By reading much I am hoping to push my 'novice mind' although hopefully I will never lose my 'beginner's mind' :0)
By struggling I meant in terms of grappling with the art not in the pecuniary sense :0)
I shall as suggested keep reading. I do feel that I am getting more open to layers within verses whereas only recently I was quite out of the 'a frog is a frog' mould :0/ reading, especially on the mentoring fora, has opened me up a lot. In fact I may now get too carried away :0/
Thank you yet again for all of your help and answering my questions,
Regards
C

[Carl]

An interesting read:
http://www.graceguts.com/essays/selected-examples-of-deja-ku


With that being said – consider:
A successful one-page/one-word haiku: tundra
http://www.haikupoet.com/definitions/davidson_def.html


Take a look at page 20 of the following link:
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=25&ved=0CDUQFjAEOBQ&url=http%3A%2F%2Fweb.mit.edu%2Felizqian%2FPublic%2Fjunction_misc%2FHaiku.pdf&ei=oq6aVaDqLIKJoQTVqL3gCQ&usg=AFQjCNGf4lEaqgDp5zlc05QXjZBGGIH3zQ


Now consider the entry by Tom Paining:
http://www.thehaikufoundation.org/haikunow-awards-for-2012/

Hi
Thank you for the information and taking the time to answer my questions. I will read and inwardly digest all that I can,
Regards
C

[sandra]

Hello Carl,

This is a knotty and thorny question this is hard to answer - we do unconsciously echo the words and lines of others and I think we've all done that at some time; but there are also those who go a little further than that. Through naiveté or design, it's hard to say, especially as no one is going to put their hand up and admit plagiarism.

This short piece (published in July 2014) might be of some interest to you as you embark on your haiku career:

http://www.poetrysociety.org.nz/tooclose

This longer piece (by me) was published in October 2013:

http://www.poetrysociety.org.nz/plagiarisminhaiku

With a response from Michael Dylan Welch published the following month:

http://www.poetrysociety.org.nz/plagiarismbymdw

All the best,
Sandra

[Carl]

Hi Sandra
Thank you very much for taking the time to read my query and post a reply along with so much valuable information. I appreciate it,
Regards
Carl

[AlanSummers]

Hi Carl,

This is another reason why I prefer using direct personal experience as much as possible.   The body poetic i.e. the poet themselves experiences enough day to day incidents to create their own unique poetry.

I also use my imagination and this may form part of a haiku or a whole haiku, but my main default is my own life and how it interacts with the larger life out there.

Where plagiarism may occur is when someone puts pressure on themselves to produce a lot of poems, and a number of solo poetry collections.

Here's just one numerous pieces on plagiarism ever since Ira Lightman became a plagiarism investigator:
https://overland.org.au/previous-issues/issue-214/debate-anthony-hayes-and-ira-lightman/

Alan

[Carl]

Hi Alan

Thank you for the further link. I can't be alone in finding the whole situation extremely sad. I agree that one of the best defences/practices is to write from personal experience. It is my much preferred material gathering technique. It still leaves open the possibility of inadvertent plagiarism. Whilst out walking this morning I crossed the grass in our local park. The sun was shining on the dew in the grass and mushrooms were pushing through. In a flash of what I hope was inspiration I saw the mushrooms as nails and thought of

morning walk
mushrooms nail the lawn
to the earth

Okay it needs much work!

But how am I to know that someone else hasn't had the same thought about mushrooms and published such a line somewhere. Or whether I have read it in amongst the hundreds if not thousands of haiku I have read over the last few months or before and forgotten. I did an Internet search and found nothing but who knows whether my search was thorough enough? There are hundreds of thousands of haiku published in magazines that are unsearchable.

It would be incredibly sad for an innocent poet to be branded a plagiarist for true inspiration that mirrored another's. The label once attributed would be nigh on impossible to remove. There can be no guaranteed solution. So it appears one must write from and with the best of intentions at all times in the ever present fear that what one is writing may not be unique. And, on occasion, one must be prepared to give up the authorship of a loved poem because of an inadvertent similarity to a previous work. The only alternative is to not write at all. So wrote in fear or do not write. Rather takes the pleasure out of it doesn't it?

Regard

C

[AlanSummers]

Hi Carl,

Hi Alan

Thank you for the further link. I can't be alone in finding the whole situation extremely sad. I agree that one of the best defences/practices is to write from personal experience. It is my much preferred material gathering technique. It still leaves open the possibility of inadvertent plagiarism. Whilst out walking this morning I crossed the grass in our local park. The sun was shining on the dew in the grass and mushrooms were pushing through. In a flash of what I hope was inspiration I saw the mushrooms as nails and thought of

morning walk
mushrooms nail the lawn
to the earth

Okay it needs much work!

Well, both myself and my wife Karen Hoy, a published and anthologised haiku poet, enjoyed the haiku! :-)

But how am I to know that someone else hasn't had the same thought about mushrooms and published such a line somewhere. Or whether I have read it in amongst the hundreds if not thousands of haiku I have read over the last few months or before and forgotten. I did an Internet search and found nothing but who knows whether my search was thorough enough? There are hundreds of thousands of haiku published in magazines that are unsearchable.

I haven't personally seen a poem about mushrooms being nailed down, so I'd consider submitting it.   I have read a few million haiku in twenty plus years. :)

It would be incredibly sad for an innocent poet to be branded a plagiarist for true inspiration that mirrored another's. The label once attributed would be nigh on impossible to remove.

Well one famous poet who writes haiku has been caught out in his longer poems, and another very famous haiku poet has been mentioned.  Doesn't seem to have slowed them down.  The key phrase is 'innocent poet' so please don't let it stop you writing.

After all every time we speak we plagiarise, because someone else said good morning, hello, goodbye, and please etc... before us.  Do we bandaid our mouths, and our hands?

There can be no guaranteed solution. So it appears one must write from and with the best of intentions at all times in the ever present fear that what one is writing may not be unique.

You can write from fear if you wish, that's an interesting technique.   Sometimes I write from great sadness, even to the extent that tears are falling.

And, on occasion, one must be prepared to give up the authorship of a loved poem because of an inadvertent similarity to a previous work.

That has happened a few times, but considering the millions of haiku written by people outside Japan it's still a rare occurrence.

The only alternative is to not write at all. So wrote in fear or do not write. Rather takes the pleasure out of it doesn't it?

And also do not speak any word said before, or write letters, or email, or eat, as that's been before.  Or do what the rest of us do, and continue with our art. :)

warm regards,

Alan

Hi Alan

Thank you for the further link. I can't be alone in finding the whole situation extremely sad. I agree that one of the best defences/practices is to write from personal experience. It is my much preferred material gathering technique. It still leaves open the possibility of inadvertent plagiarism. Whilst out walking this morning I crossed the grass in our local park. The sun was shining on the dew in the grass and mushrooms were pushing through. In a flash of what I hope was inspiration I saw the mushrooms as nails and thought of

morning walk
mushrooms nail the lawn
to the earth

Okay it needs much work!

But how am I to know that someone else hasn't had the same thought about mushrooms and published such a line somewhere. Or whether I have read it in amongst the hundreds if not thousands of haiku I have read over the last few months or before and forgotten. I did an Internet search and found nothing but who knows whether my search was thorough enough? There are hundreds of thousands of haiku published in magazines that are unsearchable.

It would be incredibly sad for an innocent poet to be branded a plagiarist for true inspiration that mirrored another's. The label once attributed would be nigh on impossible to remove. There can be no guaranteed solution. So it appears one must write from and with the best of intentions at all times in the ever present fear that what one is writing may not be unique. And, on occasion, one must be prepared to give up the authorship of a loved poem because of an inadvertent similarity to a previous work. The only alternative is to not write at all. So wrote in fear or do not write. Rather takes the pleasure out of it doesn't it?

Regard

C

[sandra]

Hi Carl,

Don't worry (too much)! If you strive to keep your work fresh then although what you are seeing may have been seen by millions of people over thousands of years you will be expressing *your* reactions/sensations/thoughts which, while likely not unique in the greater scheme of things, may very well be unique in the relatively small pool of people writing haiku about that spot/thing.

What I've seen of your work so far leads me to believe that you are more than capable of avoiding pitfalls.

All the best,
Sandra

[sandra]

I've just found this quote which may bring some balm to your troubled soul:

Jo Bell added, in a message to poets worried and upset about the current furore: "I hate ... to see good, amateur poets of integrity worrying themselves over nothing, putting down the pens which they already struggle to pick up, because they think there is some great mystery over what is acceptable practice and what isn't. There isn't. Keep writing as well as you can. If you quote, borrow or reply to another poem - and you should, it's part of our culture and we're entitled to it - just put some bloody quote marks round it and credit the original poet. It's not complicated."

http://www.writeoutloud.net/public/blogentry.php?blogentryid=48608

[Carl]

Hi Sandra
Thank you for the additional information and encouraging words. That quote is a whole lot of balm thank you :0)
Regards
C

[sbwright]

Hello Carl,

This is a knotty and thorny question this is hard to answer - we do unconsciously echo the words and lines of others and I think we've all done that at some time; but there are also those who go a little further than that. Through naiveté or design, it's hard to say, especially as no one is going to put their hand up and admit plagiarism.

This short piece (published in July 2014) might be of some interest to you as you embark on your haiku career:

http://www.poetrysociety.org.nz/tooclose

This longer piece (by me) was published in October 2013:

http://www.poetrysociety.org.nz/plagiarisminhaiku

With a response from Michael Dylan Welch published the following month:

http://www.poetrysociety.org.nz/plagiarismbymdw

All the best,
Sandra

Thanks for these links Sandra.  My practise is to note when I am writing, take photographs if possible and have composition notes.