punctuation marks

[josie hibbing]

Hi! I'm very new to haiku. I always have trouble about punctuation marks. I notice that people use comma, dashes, and ellipsis the most. I know when to use them in a sentence but with haiku, I get confused especially with dashes and ellipsis. I have a couple of haiku examples here. The 1st one I used ellipsis; the 2nd one I used dashes. I wonder if I did it right and I wonder if I should just leave them without any punctuation. (You may also make suggestions about the haiku. :))

clay jar...
I remember
my first broken heart

a chilly day--
only the wind
in the swing set

[AlanSummers]

Hi Josie!

Good question, because people have different approaches regarding punctuation.  

As haiku evolved from hokku which was just the starting verse of a longer poem where each verse was written by a different poet, haiku is often seen as an incomplete sentence. So haiku evolved from this longer poem called renga or renku, and would link up with the following verse, so that's why so many haiku appear incomplete, yet so much. ;-)


clay jar...
I remember
my first broken heart


I really like your clay jar haiku, and the punctuation seems perfect to me.

a chilly day--
only the wind
in the swing set

Again, I like your haiku and the punctuation appears fine to me.

Sometimes I use two n dashes, although a single m dash is fine too.

Black Mountains--
the stagnant chill
of snowmelt

1.   HI #60   (HIA, Japan 2005)
2.   Haiku Friends    ed. Masaharu Hirata,  Japan  (2003)
3.   MATCH 1 SESSION 3 "SNOWMELT"/"MELTING SNOW" (KIGO)  WHC/Japan Times online Renga Tournament 2002  

But it could be just a single long  dash.

Black Mountains–
the stagnant chill
of snowmelt


You seem to be okay with punctuation, and writing some good short haiku too! ;-)

all my best,

Alan

[cat]

Hello, Josie,

As you read more and more haiku, you will notice that punctuation choices are often a poet's preference more than a strict rule.  So there are various ways of approaching the use and non-use of punctuation. 

Punctuation is necessary to clarify, sometimes, especially if you have a word at the end of the fragment that could -- but for the sense of the haiku should not -- be attached to the phrase.  Here's an example of mine from this year's Vancouver Cherry Blossom Festival:

cherry blossoms --
from the homeless man's trumpet,
"Ode to Joy"

If I had not included the dash, as well as reading "from the homeless man's trumpet, 'Ode to Joy'", the haiku could be read as "cherry blossoms from the homeless man's trumpet", which is of course complete nonsense. 

Sometimes you might want to include a dash or ellipsis to make the reader pause for a heartbeat or two before moving on.  IMHO, the ellipsis tends to fade/dissolve from one image into another, while the dash is a sharper shift, almost like an interruption, or a lead-in to a surprise.  I'm sure others do it differently, though.

If you have the fragment first, and an article (definite or indefinite) begins line 2, you often don't need any punctuation.  Same if line 2 begins with a pronoun.

The important thing is to experiment, try out different marks or no marks, and see what comes closest to what you're trying to convey.

I think you have chosen the fitting punctuation for your two haiku, but i also think that both of them, due to their syntax, would work without any at all.  See, your choice, not right or wrong.

Hope this is helpful.

cat

[merlot]

Punctuation varies and like most haiku writers I have no standard preference.

I observe, though, that when there is no punctuation then the effect simulates an initial flash of perception as it arises freshly--before an idea gets packaged into grammar and syntactical patterns. There is less an impression of "statement," of explicit telling, and more an impression of immediate insight in the process of happening. It is a freshly birthed, pre-grammar kind of dramatic moment.

Personally, I usually reserve the dash for a strong cutting effect--a slightly more unexpected and stronger reversal of perception than weaker punctuation marks, or none, suggest.

It doesn't bother me when lack of punctuation creates temporary confusion as to meaning, because at second reading I see I have caught an interior insight just arising from raw psychic flow.

I don't like over punctuation.

[josie hibbing]

Hi Alan! Thank you for the haiku lessons. You clarified my doubts.

As for the two little dashes on the 1st line of the second haiku, if I write it on paper it would just be a single longer line like how you write it on your 2nd "Black Mountains" haiku. I just don't know what key to type to make a single longer dash; so I push the short "dash line" key twice :)

Thank you for sharing your Black Mountain haiku. I had goosebumps. It's so beautiful!

Sincerely,
Josie <3

[josie hibbing]

Hi Cat! Your haiku lesson on punctuations is very much appreciated.

I see your point in your haiku. If there is no dash after the 1st line it would sound kind of funny. I will try to experiment with marks as you suggested.
And thanks for sharing your cherry blossom haiku. It has a sweet message with a hint of sadness. I love it!

Sincerely,
Josie <3

[josie hibbing]

Hi Merlot! Thank you for your response. I appreciate it. I could use a lot of haiku lessons.
Sometimes when a read a haiku without punctuation marks, I get confuse so I read it again. Often times I get the message the second time I read it.

I get your message-- use punctuations in your own judgement, but do not overuse them.

Thank you so much.

Josie <3

[sandra]

Hi Josie,

You've had some good responses here so I won't repeat that useful advice, but would like to also remind you that punctuation contains a visual element.

An ellipses can be used to subtly underline, say, a notion of "footprints" or of trailing off; a colon is like a wall to be climbed; a semi-colon is a crumbling wall, not so daunting; a dash is a span to cross, offering time to think; etc

Fanciful, yes, but haiku are allowed to have a graphic element too and I quite like playing round sometimes to try and reinforce that.

And, of course, our punctuation carries in-built pauses, even when one is reading silently - a comma is a short pause, a fullstop a long pause, and so on.

BTW I much prefer the em dash - if you're using Windows you type a word, enter a space, type the dash, enter a space and type the next word and then when you enter the next space, lo and behold a hyphen becomes an em dash. Using one at the end of a haiku line, enter the second space before you make a carriage return (ha, and that shows my age, doesn't it? = "enter").

[G.R. LeBlanc]

The em or en-dash issue will depend on your formatting settings. I'm not sure if it works with all computers, but if I need an em-dash, I press down on the ALT button and 0151, or ALT and 0150 for an en-dash. 

Gisele :)

[AlanSummers]

Macs are simpler, just press down alt and then dash, voila! ;-)

[josie hibbing]

Hi Sandra, Gisele and Alan! Thank you so much for the punctuation lessons. Every information helps. I will try to play around with punctuation marks.

I tried your suggestion on how to make em and en dashes but so far no luck for me. I'm a very technologically-chalenged person. There are certain things that is hard for me to comprehend. I think I have a backwards brains. (For one thing I can write backwards in cursive  :) ) Anyway, I will ask my son to show me how to make the dashes. Beacause of haiku I joined FB and my two older kids are my helpers to get started with FB.

Thank you again and may you have lots of haiku inspirations these days :)

Josie <3

[cat]

Hello, Josie,

I can't figure that keystroke thing out either, but in MS Word, if you go:

space hyphen hyphen space

it makes a dash.

Which seems much easier to me, and is all I've ever used.

cat

[G.R. LeBlanc]

I can't figure that keystroke thing out either, but in MS Word, if you go:

space hyphen hyphen space

it makes a dash.

I also use MS Word and just tried that, and it didn't work for me. I think it depends on if your automatic format settings are on. I don't keep mine on because the automatic formatting sometimes causes problems for typesetting in print publications--well, as far as I know, it used to, anyways. Fancy quotation and automatic formatting can also cause problems when you're emailing material. The formatting doesn't always come through when the message is received and will result in odd symbols in place of the formatted punctuation. That's a whole other topic of discussion though...lol.

Josie, when you try the Alt key and the 0151 (or 0150 for the en-dash), don't use the numbers at the top of the keyboard. It only works with the number keyboard that's on the side. And you have to keep the Alt key pressed down at the same time as you hit 0151. Unless you're on a Mac, I'm pretty sure it should work.

If it works, at least you'll have a temporary solution until you can figure out the automatic formatting.

Look, it even works here: —  –   :)

And, good luck with your haiku!

Gisele

[josie hibbing]

Hi Gisele! Look at this — and – !!! I made an em and en dashes! I finally figured it out (without the help of my son  ;)). I pressed the number keys on the right side of the keyboard, not the ones on top.

Thanks so much for your help!

Josie <3

[G.R. LeBlanc]

Yay!!!! I'm so glad, Josie! I know whenever I figure something out on the computer without my husband's help, I get so excited! LOL!  :D