Concerning English Short Poetry

[chibi575]

Don, thanks.

Let me digest now the names you are proposing.  In the mean time, if you would identify what components within each that you would support and why?

For example, kigo, would apply to both?  Etc...

For my blood pressure, if you would kind sir hint when you are joking... I have yet to master the "serious" versus "jest" determination.

:) ;) :D ;D >:( :( :o 8) ??? ::) :P :-[ :-X :-\ :-* :'(

Thanx sensei.

[cat]

Hello, chibi,

Well, I guess I'll have a go at it, then . . .

Whatever it's called -- I call it "English-language haiku" and I think that's a very clear term that: clues everyone that it's not Japanese-language haiku; is inclusive of everyone writing haiku in English whether they're in the US, Australia, Bulgaria, Ghana, India, or anywhere else; and is non-judgmental, which is very important to me -- I think some of the important elements are nature, seasonality (whether strictly by kigo or by what's relevant to one's own little corner of the world), image, and sensory details, all of which combine to give the reader an experience and a fresh perception of the world in some small way.  I think structure is important, although with one-line, two-line, three-line, zip, and no doubt other forms I'm not familiar with, I think being too stringent about structure (such as saying ELH must follow 5-7-5) is limiting for the sake of being limiting, not for the sake of the poem or the genre/form/whatever.  I would be happy to say no more than 17 syllables, and somewhat fewer if possible, arranged in a pattern that pleases the poet and provides the reader with a full experience of the moment that inspired the haiku to begin with.

You can no doubt see that I do not have a technical/theoretical brain and I can't argue the points of literary criticism, so I could very well have just made a complete fool of myself (heck, it isn't the first time and it won't be the last).  I consciously avoided using the Japanese terms because I wanted to be very clear in what I'm saying, and as a person who does not speak or read Japanese, my understanding of the terms probably does not have a depth and breadth that would allow me to use them to their fullest meaning. 

Well, foolish or not, someone had to get the ball rolling -- we are after all 6 pages into this discussion and I guess no one really has addressed the question.  I took a shot.  What else can ya do?

cat

[Don Baird]

Yes Chibi, I will.  I apologize about your blood pressure.   :o  Possibly meditate some?  :)

Two names:

Japan:  EIH:  English Influence Haiku in Japan.  Shiki was very influenced by English, by Amercia, really.  It had an incredible impact on his reformation of how haiku would be perceived and written in the future by many generations to come.  In fact,  he was so radical in his thoughts, he recognized that he needed a new name from hokku and haikai equating in some way to the new Shiki Haiku.  His style was no longer Japanese.  It was Shiki.  Possibly, the use of Shiki Haiku might be a winner as well.  There is a concept that would apply around the world including Japan.  He was English influenced:  non Japanese are struggling with the Japanese concepts ... but not the shiki concepts.  

Foreign:  JIH: Japanese Influence Haiku in all other locations but Japan.  This would be our division in America.  

Shiki Haiku:  this would be the name of everyone's haiku, really.  He is Japanese, but he was English (American) influenced.  Some of our ingenuity was more than welcomed by him.  He exploited many of non Japanese concepts to continue with his reform.  This one is really beneficial as it would allow everyone to use it and therefore keep us again, as a single family of haijin exploring the uses theories of writing haiku together.  Shiki Haiku.  Yes, honestly, Japan, America, Australia, England, France and the rest of the countries involved would have a united single name that we would all understand.

Shiki Haiku:  this is the reform haiku.  This is the haiku we've all be writing all over the world.  It's cutting edge.  It's free (as Shiki chatted and wrote about a lot).  It would contain the concepts of finding value right in front of you nose that's a haiku.  That where ever you are, a haiku is there with you (paraphrase).  

Secondly, in Shiki Haiku World Wide (to include everyone) I would start by suggesting the use of kigo.  Shiki referenced a kigo in every single haiku he wrote, as I understand it.  He was meticulous about that.  Next, the American artist sketch - his shasei, as a result, should be the core principle of how it is written - psychologically.  Then, possibly use S/L/S as the structure to imitate his lines the best we can in different languages.  He was strict 5/7/5.  But that is more of a natural quality of the Japanese language than anything.  Lets see if the Japanese can write poetry that doesn't rhyme!   :P   ( a joke) :)

This is fascinating.  I await your thoughts.

all the best,

Don

[chibi575]

Don,

Good and thanx... this may take me years...  ;D

hai sensei

PS... my exploration of Shiki continues, so, this may also take me years, seriously.  8)

[Don Baird]

I'm with ya.  Lets start now.    8)   It's the perfect solution.  It would blend perfectly with the ELH as well.  We let Shiki be the guide.  We all fall into place.  He was the only renegade we need.  Now, we ban together and make it work for him post-mortum.  This is his dream too.  Now it's ours collectively. 

Shiki Haiku - a world wide movement to bring different cultures into the haiku experience.  EIF for Japan and JIF for all foreigners.  And then, a sub title of ELH (Gabi's reference) for any of those writing haiku in English. 

I'd be happy to help set this up with you and Gabi.  It would be great fun.

then we can deal with Kigo, kire, kigo,karumi, kiregi, on (onji), shasei, and the rest one at a time.  We could have a nice reference manual in probably a year or so.

many blessings, Chibi

Don

[chibi575]

Cat, you're not an Alanis Morissette fan, eh?  ;D

She recommends as I to make a fool of oneself... you'll be joining legions!

Let me think on your reply.


Don, slow down!  Let me take a breath or two or three ... stay  8)



Seriously, this may take some time and I will try to parce the suggestions in each reply; and, if any more genre to components come to mind just pile them on with my sincere thanks.


ciao

[colin stewart jones]

how about we keep Haiku for the Japanese poets

and every non-Japanese i.e. foreign writer of the poems formally known as haiku
will now have to call their poetic efforts Forku

Forku is a compound taking the first part of "foreign" with "ku" tacked on as a suffix :P


col :)

[Don Baird]

Hey Col,

That word kind of resonates! LOL  forku ...  ::)

[chibi575]

how about we keep Haiku for the Japanese poets

and every non-Japanese i.e. foreign writer of the poems formally known as haiku
will now have to call their poetic efforts Forku

Forku is a compound taking the first part of "foreign" with "ku" tacked on as a suffix :P


col :)

Hi Col,

Forku and the kigo you rode in on!   ;D

Actually, you've got something with foreign ku contraction, but, I would parse it differently: foreiku fo{フォ},re{レ},i{イ},ku{ク}　フォレイク.

Cheers dude! Thanx for taking a step toward ownership.

[chibi575]

Hey Col,

That word kind of resonates! LOL  forku ...  ::)

Don, ditto with what I said to Col.

[Don Baird]

LOL... have a great holiday week!   :)

[colin stewart jones]

lol  chibi

good to see we are laughing now

cheers

col :)

[chibi575]

I wonder if the proposal of new genre(s) to represent all haikuish poems outside of Japanese is sort of like the re-focus of Shiki as an inspiration for haikuish... maybe that is a possible name for the genre "haikuish"  sort of like combining languages that end in "ish" (English, Spanish, Scottish ...).  Well all that a bit "tongue through cheek" HO HO HO.

Japanese common haiku is composed with elements of the following (more or less basic components):

kigo This element is a challenge even for the Japanese sensei; and, although I know about the tools used like a sanctioned saijiki, there is much debate about the tweak of this tool and its certification.

kireji (not kire) although the root "kire" is within the word (CAUTION: using "kireji" in Japan outside the specific context of Japanese haiku means, "bleeding hemorrhoids"  -- a personal anecdote: while in Japan trying to discuss in Japanese my interest in Japanese art I used kireji out of context with a non-poet whose facial expression became a good example for "lost in translation"!!

kakekotoba (I haven't grasped the full depth of this element).  Do google exploration yourself and let's compare notes.

hiragana The Japanese official basic alphabet.  Each character has a specific and unique sound (there are regional variations in accents).

katakana The Japanese official basic alphabet used for non-native Japanese words, such as formal foreign names and words.

kanji  The borrowed Chinese symbology of picture-graphs (this covers most of the kanji which ironically has changed very little as opposed to current Chinese symbology).  In more advanced poetry, the symbology is usually from older eras.  From the sages, as it were.

My thinking and feeling is that any newly proposed genre should address a respectful way to understand and transport these elements.  This is part of taking OWNERSHIP for any derived from haiku genre.

As this is my way to address the explorational starting point in part from Shiki's HAIKU... it is "work in progress".

[Don Baird]

There's some interesting choices you've made.  Shiki made three:

kigo
one cut (kireji)
shasei

Shiki stated that these were the only aspects that absolutely needed to be there for writing haiku.  He was also a man of honest realsim in regards to writing his haiku.  Interesting to note, that Shiki "borrowing from the vocabulary of Western painting, he adopted the term shasei" (sketch from life). (Burton Watson, Masaoka Shiki Selected Poems).  He believed that everything around you was full of haiku to write about.  From mist, to clouds, rain, apples and the like, he wrote haiku.

"He urged them first of all not to be bound by the conventions of the past but to be open and natural in their approach and to endeavor to create works that conformed first of all to their own tastes".   He wanted them to break away from time worn themes and to write about their daily lives and what's around them and to conjure up the mood and emotion of them in haiku.  As he said in 1899, "Take your materials from what is around you".  Keep in mind, that Shiki never studied under any professional haijin.  He read to learn:  his approach was that of an "outsider".

He rejected wordplay, allusions and puns in general and he didn't like haiku "telling" stories .  He liked his poem to show ... a true shasei.

His goal was to create an "artistic moment the significance of which will far transcend the <technical> elements that go into it".  He wrote to inspire a mood or emotion.  He sought things around him that he could write about that would do that.  

With some of this in mind, the Shiki haiku requirement list would be:

kigo
cut
shasei
mood/emotion
stay away from wordplay, puns and allusions (etc)
5/7/5 (possibly ... though it comes naturally in Japanese)

Shiki was in an era where there was much cultural exchange.  While Japan was receiving a great many artistic influences from the West, the West was receiving a few in exchange including haiku.

It's clear that the language doesn't have pronouns etc.  But, I don't think they write as though they are not there.  It's clear they are.  They didn't have the need, aparently, to tell everyone else the "I" was there or it is "my" dog ... as in that culture, that, in context, was a given.

Interesting stuff.

These are the only crucial ingredients that Shiki maintained were important.  What a nice and simple list for others to begin their writing haiku from.  Shiki didn't like complexity in structure.  It's apparent he liked the simplicity of it and the straight-forwardness of it.  I have no interest in making more difficult than his suggestions as outlined above.

Shiki Haiku marks the one liner "simplicity is a giant" as monumental.

I'm really busy these next weeks ... I'll be in and out here.  Probably not much more to say.  I'd rather spend more time writing haiku and my books than discussing if it's possible or not for a person who speaks English. There are so many great examples of haiku in English and I enjoy them as such.  So much talent on this planet:  it's awesome!

all the best,

Don

[onecloud]

I consider this topic a non-debate.  Who should name poetry if not poets?  and "what's in a name?" 
oh rose!

for myself... the new word I am hearing is "mico poems"  it is fitting,  modern, digital,.....

I have practiced writing haiku in english for thirty yrs.  The form appealed to me. I wrote one in japanese.  I found that what is valuable to me is that practicing the form trained my poetic mind in a way that improves my art.  call my poems what you like.