Concerning English Short Poetry

[Don Baird]

Thanks Chibi.   8)

take care,

Don
ps... look over my sites.  I'd be glad to assist you with yours etc.  All the best, always.  Don

[chibi575]

Thanks Chibi.   8)

take care,

Don
ps... look over my sites.  I'd be glad to assist you with yours etc.  All the best, always.  Don

Don,

Thank you for your offer of assistance.  I will keep that in mind. 

Happy Holidays and a joyous New Year!

[chibi575]

I can see that I need to try another approach towards the subject of a separate genre for non-Japanese poetry based upon the Japanese haiku as it concerns English short poetry (perhaps by focusing on English, first, we can at least narrow the discussion, but, the intent is not to say English only, because this may apply to any non-Japanese language/culture).

Let me ask the question to any that would like to reply: If there were a separate genre or genres for non-Japanese poetry based upon Japanese haiku, what would be some of the components you would want the genre to contain or not contain?  If you could also give your reasoning for each component within your reply.

Thank you for your kindnesses.

[colin stewart jones]

as a side note
though linked to this discussion

you know John Ford elevated the "Western" movie to epic status  (US)

Kurasawa did something similar with his Seven Samurai and Jojimbo movies  (japan)

later remade as violent Spaghetti Westerns (Italy)

Peckinpah took the violent western to its ultimate in stylisation

Tarantino in Kill Bill took the western back to Japan
and then back to the US
referencing lots of classic western films in the process


so my question is to what genre and who does Kill Bill belong to:

to all people of all nations would be my answer

like all art ; once it is out there it belongs to the world
discussion about source or semantics are limiting to us all
and the wonder that is haiku

Slainte  (that is Gaelic btw )

Col

[cat]

Well said, col.

So very well said.

slàinte agad-sa,
cat

[chibi575]

Ok... I think I'm seeing by both Colin and Cat's reply... I just don't get it? 

I think this is key to my disconnect.  What you say as not important, seems to me important.

Again we're talking about the merit of the effort.  That's fine, but, why reply?  If you don't want to help me move the weight, don't pull my rope  :o

If you do, then please reply to the my comment:

If there were a separate genre or genres for non-Japanese poetry based upon Japanese haiku, what would be some of the components you would want the genre to contain or not contain?  If you could also give your reasoning for each component within your reply.

(no offense is intended to either of you, i'm struggling with focus here, what other way can I say it)

[chibi575]

Hmmm... I was a little abrupt there... my finger-mind-frustration link some time takes over.

Colin... in your reply, if I can use your analogy of film... let's take for example anime.  Hmmm... that's what I'm talking about.  Why not call it just "cartoon"?  Well... it is different to deserve a name of its own.

Cat... I realize that you're supporting the merits of Colin's reply.  I agree to the facts represented in Colin's reply resonates some of your previous positions.  No problem in that, although, I guess it fueled my frustraton in myself that I am not getting the focus conveyed on my concern.

[colin stewart jones]

but surely anime comes from the French

i do like some Japanese anime (manga) but given your arguments
you had better find another word to describe it  ???

ok lol

col :)

[chibi575]

but surely anime comes from the French

i do like some Japanese anime (manga) but given your arguments
you had better find another word to describe it  ???

ok lol

col :)

Col... ok ... you've pulled my rope (which direction, I'm not sure)   ;D  But, my point is anime is a DIFFERENT word than "cartoon" or that "manga" is a different term than "comic book".  You don't see what I'm talking about is the name change is justified due to the change?  Of course presently in the USA "comic books" have become "graphic novels" due mostly to a more positive spin; but, they are now mixing the names "comic book" and "graphic novel".  The change is OWNERSHIP... the USA has decided through the enfluence of "manga" to separate the two by calling the taxonomy: comic book => manga (Japanese centric); and, comic book => graphic novel (USA centric).  I ask no more than to consider this approach for: haiku => ??? in English speaking peoples.  We need to take OWNERSHIP because it IS a DIFFERNT genre!!  Why is this so hard?

Ta Col

chibi  8)

[Don Baird]

as a quick side note:

It was Shiki who got the idea of shasei from American painting and sketch art ... he coined the term as a result of American influence and he personally delved into sketching on paper as well as in the way he envisioned haiku.  In that regard, Japanese haiku was modified via the influence of the English language and American customs.  That should directly relate to your needs.

Don

[chibi575]

Don,

So you are suggesting the idea of shasei be retained in a new genre (if a new genre was formed)?

[Don Baird]

No, I'm suggesting the new genre be called English Haiku and then, in general, just don't say English.  I think it should be shortened to Haiku which would be very fitting in this case as our language has effected the original Japanese haiku so much, we should honor our influence by maintaining the name.  Possibly the Japanese would like to adjust there's by calling it English Influenced Haiku in the future.  The would be more than appropriate.

I would go with all of this above. It's a fair and resonable solution for us all. 

Don

[Mark Harris]

Chibi,

while it's true that Shiki staked a claim to what he thought hokku should (for better and worse) be, and then sold it by calling it haiku, I'm sorry to say I think your observation,

"Of course presently in the USA "comic books" have become "graphic novels" due mostly to a more positive spin; but, they are now mixing the names "comic book" and "graphic novel".  The change is OWNERSHIP... the USA has decided through the enfluence of "manga" to separate the two by calling the taxonomy: comic book => manga (Japanese centric); and, comic book => graphic novel (USA centric)."

is not so much about ownership as marketing.

[chibi575]

Mark, do you care to respond to my comment:

If there were a separate genre or genres for non-Japanese poetry based upon Japanese haiku, what would be some of the components you would want the genre to contain or not contain?  If you could also give your reasoning for each component within your reply.

Your point about marketing is also valid as I indirectly implied with "more positive spin". 

Don, so your suggesting we call the genre English haiku, then, drop the English?  And you speak for us all?   ???  Let me at least say, huh?  No thank you, but, thank you for your reply, eventhough, as I read it you indiretly and again support no change.  So you say that as an answer is a non-answer?  Then why oh why my dear friend did you reply at all?  This was your sly sense of humor no doubt?  (please put yourself in my place and see if you don't think your reply confusing and frustrating).

[Don Baird]

Yes Chibi, I was jesting a little.   :)

But seriously,  I honestly believe that in today's light, that the Japanese Haiku should be called English Influenced Haiku (as a result of Shiki's reformation).  So, we have two categories:

In all sincerity:

"English Influenced Japanese Haiku" - EIH (for short) for Japan
"Japanese Influenced Foreign Haiku" - JIH (Japanese influenced haiku)  for all those countries outside of Japan.  

I won third place two years in a row at the Kusamakura International Haiku Contest in the Foreign Division.  That's where I'm getting this idea from.  They listed me as foreign division.  They listed the Japanese as they are.

You are either Japanese or Foreign.  Not fair to say: Japanese and English (or American)... what about the rest of the world? This must be a much broader picture than just the USA.  There are folks all over the world writing these gems today.  We need an appropriate name for all non Japanese Haijin, haiku practitioners.

My suggestion:

EIH for Japan:  JIH for all countries other than Japan.  This gives everyone a win/win.  Then folks can say haiku from any country (for short) but not without realizing the more formal and grander names of EIH and JIH respectively.

Thank you for your efforts.  These are names that I could live with.

take care,

Don