Concerning English Short Poetry

[chibi575]

Well... this is a fine fettle of kish!

Don... "write on!"  By the way, "baseball" I believe had a different name, orginally French...  oh well, I guess there was no one worried when it changed over time to "basball".  Actually, supports my arguement, sort of.  If I can use that as example, it took hundreds of years for that to happen and the game evolved into "baseball".  If haiku were treated as baseball, then, what would happen to the transported game if you decided to paly a game without bases (kigo), without bats (kireji), without balls (there is a pun there somewhere).  Would you not be a bit embarrased and confused to call it "baseball".


Let me outline some elements of Japanese haiku that I feel failed to be transported with the same importance held in Japan:

kigo (a major debate at times across the adapting cultures of the world) for this alone I could argue that this only applies to haiku (traditional Japanese hokku-to-haiku element).  This alone could be key to adopting a different name for the resulting poetry genre.

kakekotoba (word play or puns) which are usually the mark of mastership poetry in Japan and dates back to the root Chinese poetry.  Western puns are usually judged poor form in English literature, mostly, as near as I can assess, because they are at a sound level, whereby in Japan the best are situational and reference traditional and revered poets of the past.

kireji (precisely constructed pauses or "cut aways" usually delineated by an actual phrase or word in Japanese designed especially for this use.  Other languages do not have specific symbology for such.

Because of these specific art constructions that originate and are retained in Japanese haiku, makes me feel, it is a different genre (so far) when transported to non-Japanese cultures.

If we go back again to "baseball" the differences in the French game and todays game are variance enough to warrent a different name for the French game.  I think this exists between Japanese haiku and the resulting poems transfered to other cultures and yes, it is daunting to consider the name changes per adaptation per culture (embrasing diversity and not isolation).

What I am hearing from most of those that have replied to this forum, there is a concern of the effort and risk of confusion by proposing a plethera of genre (ones to embrace the world wide cultural diversity).  I feel such effort worth the gain in promoting a clearer understanding that a poem of three lines with some letter-phrase phoneticaly complete sound count of groupings of 5-7-5 may not qualify as haiku.  By qualifying the diversity of culture and resulting qualified components associated with their resulting own genre, could have a freeing effect.  The question of the Japanese haiku components of their poetry could be part of the adaptations.  In other words, kigo, kakekotoba, and kireji could be used or not as defined by the resulting rules of the genre.

Thanks all for your interest and replies.

PS... I am begining to feel like I'm in a possible skit by SNL's Rosanne Roseannadanna, "if it ain't Japanese, it ain't haiku! .... nevermind."

[cat]

Hello, chibi,

Interesting that baseball has finally come into this.  I have been thinking about that analogy, only differently, for a couple of days now.

What I've been thinking about is the designated hitter.  Would you say that AL games (English-language haiku) are very different from NL games (Japanese haiku)?  Do you think the DH makes the AL somehow not baseball any more?  Should Major League Baseball be dissolved and the two leagues go their separate ways as two different games? 

Here's something the Saturday Evening Post published back in January of this year that I think has some relevance here:

"You don't have to be a rabid baseball fan to see an intriguing question beneath the controversy. The Designated Hitter Rule is a fundamental controversy that can be found in art, govermment, philosophy, and religion: is it better to change the rules to achieve desired results, or should we improve our performance within the existing rules? This question in this controversy is similar to that which launched the Reformation and split the artistic community over Modernism."

Well, it's all grist for the mill . . .

I don't believe I'll be calling what I write anything but "English-language haiku" in the foreseeable future.

cat

[Don Baird]

LOL... Dennis...

Out of curiosity, what headway have you made with anyone at any forum with this concept of yours.  I've seen this argument a thousand times (usually you bringing it up, :) )  in different forums.  Do you have a following with the concept?  Is there a website folks can go to in order to hear your expertise and see your complete argument?   And, is there a following for you regarding the change of name for hokku?  Are you doing well with that side of your argument also.

I appreciate your indepth opinions.  They're interesting, minimally. 

all my best

Don

[chibi575]

Cat... your grist is welcome.

Don... could you explain "minimally" in your last remark?  It sounds a wee bit condescendingly sarcastic, then, this may be my interpretation of your style?  Perhaps this is an expression of your frustration with the new genre concept?  I've decided to not take it personally, though.  Sorry for your frustration.  Thank you for your replies.

As to some of the reference to my prior thinking on the "new genre" concept (if this was a serious inquiry and not a snip based on frustration), I've been supporting beginning in the late 90's that much of what is written as haiku (other than in Japan), usually lacks a key understanding of the three elements I outlined in the previous post, kigo, kakekotoba, and kireji (explicitly or implied).  The pivotal component most misunderstood is kigo, but, the others have almost equal weight.  When transported to the English speaking world by Blythe, there was by it's newness (I believe), a flawed understanding as to these components and others.  Blythe did a stellar job (for his time) and is a good historical reference.  But, as more eyes began to look and understand the Japanese art form, more and more key nuances were discovered and the need for their transport (with their idea intact) began to show a strong collection of cultural based bias and barriers.  Some good reference books on these are by author Robin D. Gill (almost all his works have copious footnote and bibliography that explain in depth the Japanese "heart-mind").  Bill Higginson's books, too, are very good at explaining these ideas (Bill's presentation is very easy to understand).  My most enfluential book (for me personally) is "Chiyo-ni, Woman Haiku Master", authors Patricia Donegan and Yosie Ishibashi. 

My first sensei, Fujita Akegarasu, a haijin and leader of the Tokyo haiku circle, Kusanohana, instilled in me the Japanese haiku spirit.  He was gracious and a bit radical by Japanese haiku circle standards to accept me as a student.  He was my teacher for about 3 years until his passing in 2004.  He was very interested in any outside interest in haiku (he did not teach any other form, although I asked him about haibun, renku, and tanka).  Other than accepting me as student, he is teaching was standard for Japanese haiku circles, although, he was charismatic and could pull from you more than you felt you had.  I hold a deep fondness and respect for him.  Towards his death, he asked me to take his teachings back with me to the USA.  I had opened a free BLOG in Yahoo 360 (now defunct) to teach the limited lessons I had learned from Akegarasu sensei.  I met many through the blog that were interested in my experiences and interest in haiku.  There were a core of about 12 "students (haiku no deshi)" from many cultures that I still try to stay in contact with even today. 

I was also very lucky to have won the 8th Mainichi Frist Place Award in the International Haiku Contest, 2004.  I envited Akegarasu sensei to the awards ceremony to honor him as my teacher.  Here is an article in Atlanta Magazine that fills in more details:

http://books.google.com/books?id=sQ8AAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA44&lpg=PA44&dq=8th+Mainichi+Haiku&source=bl&ots=FOtJStfhzA&sig=U5Q_zit_5Nl9Pp3Xy4dRgYlI8ko&hl=en&ei=nyUKTfuOI4GKlwez28miAQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CBoQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q&f=false

I also supported Gabi Greve's ideas and concepts of the World Kigo Database, to give access to a collection (today still a work in progress) of world wide seasonal word references.  Gabi sama and I discussed at length the concepts within the Japanese haiku and there transportation to other languages and cultures.   We still feel frustrated about their lack of sound transport, although, her tireless energy has done more than I could begin to do to foment the kigo concept.

Today, I support the idea of new genre to actually free the short poem poetics from the Japanese haiku components that they have labored with through prior misunderstandings.  I feel that this freedom is afforded by a new genre that each country can take ownership of.

Thank you for your kindnesses.

[Gael Bage]

I think the clue to your frustration lies in this statement

Let me outline some elements of Japanese haiku that I feel failed to be transported with the same importance held in Japan:

While I agree a lot fail in this respect it doesn't mean its not possible, perhaps it would be more fruitful to promote the use of what you describe ?
Actually this is a useful checklist to look at before sending english haiku to japan or china, thankyou.
Could we design an english equivalent to their pauses?

[Don Baird]

Hey Dennis,

No, not at all.  The first part of my inquiry was in jest (we have been in this one, together, before :) ).  The "minimally" is simply what it means.  Very sorry for the confusion. It sounds like you might be fatiguing on this and becoming sensitive.  I didn't mean to put that much pressure on you.  I love your passion, Chibi, and desire to honestly preserve the dignity of the haiku art form.  So, don't take me wrongly.  And, I'll be more careful as to how I word my posts.  Thanks.

On a side note, I do notice though, you didn't address my questions at all.  If you have a moment, would you please inform me as to your success with this concept over the last 5 - 10 years.  I'm sincerely interested in knowing the inquiries of my prior post.

take care,

Don
ps... yes, I'm familiar with the well known poets of the past who have actually stated your side of the discussion themselves.  This thought (your position) has been outlined very clearly by some of the folks you've mentioned.  Gabi is a friend of mine (internet, I've never met her) and support and love her work.  If you notice, I almost always write with kigo, kireji, ma ...... and the rest).  The operative words here are "almost always"...  8)  Gabi's comment about me is:  "... you are one of the few who understands the Japanese ways ..." (Dr. Greve).  She is most probably aligned with you on this subject, by the way.

[chibi575]

LOL... Dennis...

Out of curiosity, what headway have you made with anyone at any forum with this concept of yours.  I've seen this argument a thousand times (usually you bringing it up, :) )  in different forums.  Do you have a following with the concept?  Is there a website folks can go to in order to hear your expertise and see your complete argument?   And, is there a following for you regarding the change of name for hokku?  Are you doing well with that side of your argument also.

I appreciate your indepth opinions.  They're interesting, minimally.  

all my best


Don

Don, the idea of a new genre?  Thousands of posts?  Actually, I've rarely and only just recently realized this a possible direction.  So, it may be some one else!  So far, as I can testify only a few know this proposal and I feel it a small sample.  It is difficult to convince readers of my good intentions. 

[chibi575]

mockingbird
out on a limb --
songless air

Pretty much sums it up... as I was walking towards the beach where I observed the wind swept seafoam shivered, a mockingbird wintering on the island seemed seasonally silent in our current cold snap.  This is an example of a "phrase-poem" because there is no kigo for mockingbird in the Japanese saijiki, there is a forced "cut" by has been tried to be equivalent in English symbology, " -- ". and probably you would have to explain the expression, "songless air" because in Japanese this is difficult to translate or find equivalent fitting Japanese.  To resolve the kigo issue is to use the current approach to make mockingbird a regional kigo for the southern USA.  In Japan, the bird would not occur, but, is quite common in the southern USA.  Although, "out on a limb" is an idiom for being in a place with precarious support, the literal equivalent does not occur in Japan not even in an equivalent cliche.

I am an engineer by vocation, and, form-fit-function of a part, component, or sub-system meeting qualified constraints and requirements is accepted as an equivalent.  This thinking has a great enfluence on "if it ain't Japanese, it ain't haiku" because I contend the form-fit-function contraints have not been met (or could possibly be met) by transported "haiku".  An example of this is evidenced by my poem, for example. Another way to put this is the cliche... "fitting a round peg in a square hole".

I know most of the poets probably do not understand these engineering concepts to the degree an engineer would.  Even so, I feel I can't share my frustration with them at the same level, and, maybe I shouldn't try.  I wish I did not feel so compelled, but I do.

Eventually, in this life or the next, I feel, the new genre idea will eventually be embraced.

I will take non-reply as an answer of non-support, but, if you do decide to reply, please, either ask for clarification of and/or offer contributions to the proposal, not, whether the proposal is right or wrong in your judgement, nor popular or unpopular.  I will not return any reply other than those focused on construction of the proposal.  Popularity issues sway me so little enough to warrant non-reply.  I welcome openly any replies meeting the above criteria.  In other words, it is your right to not like what I've proposed, but, I will not reply to assesments unless they are on the proposals components.

For example, you may ask the importance of kigo, or why are these components important in Japanese haiku.  But not, liking or not liking the idea of kigo.  I hope this will help the comments focus on issues I will reply to.

Thank you.  :) ;) :D ;D >:( :( :o 8) ??? ::) :P :-[ :-X :-\ :-* :'(

PS... it is fine for me to get no replies... I will simply take that as non-support and move on.

[Don Baird]

  "the idea of a new genre?  Thousands of posts?  Actually, I've rarely and only just recently realized this a possible direction.  So, it may be some one else!  So far, as I can testify only a few know this proposal and I feel it a small sample.  It is difficult to convince readers of my good intentions." chibi..........

Dennis, you and I talked about this with other folks on HH quite a bit.  This was a huge subject there.  Later you and I talked on skype.  You suggested I enter the radio contest.  I appreciate that to this day!  Our discussions in those days were interesting, kind of fiery.  I haven't posted there for two years.  So, this is something you and I've been passionate about and have brought up in other venues.  My comment "1000 times" is a figure of speech.  We've chatted over the phone so you know a bit how I speak.  Unfortunately, voice and presence do not carry very well in these forums.  :(  I speak in jest very often.
*******************
But, seriously, do you have a following in this theory?  I think that's a very fair question.  I'm honestly interested.  Please let me know. 

It might be that you should set up a website and try to reach out to education institutions etc. and make some differences, if it's possible, in the understanding of haiku in English.  I'm not certain you can get the name changed, but I am certain, with your expertise and education, that you can bring the USAs education system up to speed.  It would take some time, but, it probably can be done.  That would be a great venue for you.

In this case, you are suggesting to folks who write haiku to change the name of what they've done for years.  I think it is already too late, in general, to propose that.  However, if you can get into the educational system, you can make a difference before the poet has become with such a firm opinion of the name etc.  I'm just thinking out loud here, is all.

I respect your position regarding this board.  So, I will not offer further challenges to your cause of changing the name.  Reading your original thesis and the title of this board, I honestly thought you wanted the idea meaningfully argued.  My misunderstanding.

Take care always,

Don

ps... please edit the post you quoted me in.  Your words are tagged onto the end after my signature Don.  The post is respectful ... I apologize if it comes off otherwise.  I exaggerate to make a point sometimes.  I'd be more than happy to edit it if you like.  It's your call.

[cat]

Hello, chibi,

Similar to Don, I thought this was a thread for discussing the merits of changing the name of English-language haiku or leaving it alone.  Oh well.  My mistake.

If you succeed with the name change, I am sure we will all hear about it.

Until then, over and out,
cat

[chibi575]

Thank you all for understanding.  Happy Holidays and a Joyous New Year.

Don... I can't seem to figure out how to edit quotes.  I noticed what you observed and I don't know how it happened or how to correct it.  I will try some things.

[chibi575]

Hello, chibi,

Similar to Don, I thought this was a thread for discussing the merits of changing the name of English-language haiku or leaving it alone.  Oh well.  My mistake.

If you succeed with the name change, I am sure we will all hear about it.

Until then, over and out,
cat

Thanks Cat, I felt that we stopped talking about the new genre and started more questioning just about anything I replied as to its worth.  Site: popularity of idea... what's with that?  I was hoping for more discussion about perhaps why haiku is haiku, the Shiki connection, and how he came up with support for his proposal of haiku from the roots of hokku.  There seemed to be few comments about actually naming the new genre.  Of course, I figured the forum was getting more personal about my ideas and motivations.  So, I tried to refocus the direction, and I hope that will work. 

I was hoping for some ideas on the support the genre idea, but, certainly and only if a member replying supported the idea. 

I have appreciated your replies and I fully understand if you no longer contribute as I am fairly sure you do not support the genre change (and that's fine really).

[Don Baird]

Thanks! I see the change.  :)

Your original premise for this subject/thread:  "In other words, if it is not written originally in Japanese it is not haiku."

With a strong stance such as this, of course people are going to "get into it" here.  That's such a powerful opinion it could hurt some folks feelings, especially, if they are new to writing haiku.  I empathize with them and feel badly that they come here to learn haiku and instead, they are told by a very well respected haijin that their newly learned art isn't haiku.

Also, it seems particularly poignant in that this site is called "The Haiku Foundation"........  

Would you consider opening a new thread to avoid confusion and delete or lock this one?  It would help avoid confusion as to what the subject is here.  Currently, if someone new comes in, they are going to read your opening statements and then start up with this old argument -- then we'll all end up in it again.  :(  

The new thread could be called:  Japanese Nuances in Writing Haiku?  Or something like that.  Then, we could all study together and share how each of us perceives the role of such things as kigo, kireji, ma and etc.  I'd love to hear your thoughts on these things and I think you do have a lot to share.  And, there are many haijin here that have extensive experience to share. I think that would be a dynamite discussion.

What do you think?  I'm in for a thread like that.

all the best,

Don
ps:  as far as websites, this is what I mean you could do but different subject of course:  

http://www.kungfukarate.com
http://www.clarinetpro.com
http://www.donbairdphotography.com

You could develop a site to specifically announce your beliefs regarding non Japanese haiku and what it should be called.  Then, you could contact jr highs, high schools, and colleges to look it over and try to influence it through the proper channels.  Personally, I want to keep it haiku and at 63, I'm probably going too.  LOLL  But, for you ... maybe you have a passion to see this through.  Take care ... just thinking out loud.  Nothing here is intended to be sarcastic.  I apologize in advance if I've worded anything that is ambiguous in that regard.  Don

[chibi575]

Don, I've made the changes and it was easier than I intially thought.

Now, just to be clear, our discussion on HH was never about a new genre name.  It was about the qualifying components of a haiku and if you did not have certain key components how could it be by definition a haiku.

The genre name is a proposal for solution allowing more freedom in the short poem by taking direct ownership and defining what's allowed in the resulting genre.  This particular proposal is recent from me.  I think less than a couple of months old.

Anyway, Don, thank you for your interest, but, now that I know you do not support the genre idea, it is perfectly fine to stop replying as to the idea's popularity or merit.  I know where you stand and it's fine, really.

[chibi575]

Thanks! I see the change.  :)

Your original premise for this subject/thread:  "In other words, if it is not written originally in Japanese it is not haiku."

With a strong stance such as this, of course people are going to "get into it" here.  That's such a powerful opinion it could hurt some folks feelings, especially, if they are new to writing haiku.  I empathize with them and feel badly that they come here to learn haiku and instead, they are told by a very well respected haijin that their newly learned art isn't haiku.

Also, it seems particularly poignant in that this site is called "The Haiku Foundation"........  

Would you consider opening a new thread to avoid confusion and delete or lock this one?  It would help avoid confusion as to what the subject is here.  Currently, if someone new comes in, they are going to read your opening statements and then start up with this old argument -- then we'll all end up in it again.  :(  

The new thread could be called:  Japanese Nuances in Writing Haiku?  Or something like that.  Then, we could all study together and share how each of us perceives the role of such things as kigo, kireji, ma and etc.  I'd love to hear your thoughts on these things and I think you do have a lot to share.  And, there are many haijin here that have extensive experience to share. I think that would be a dynamite discussion.

What do you think?  I'm in for a thread like that.

all the best,

Don
ps:  as far as websites, this is what I mean you could do but different subject of course:  

http://www.kungfukarate.com
http://www.clarinetpro.com
http://www.donbairdphotography.com

You could develop a site to specifically announce your beliefs regarding non Japanese haiku and what it should be called.  Then, you could contact jr highs, high schools, and colleges to look it over and try to influence it through the proper channels.  Personally, I want to keep it haiku and at 63, I'm probably going too.  LOLL  But, for you ... maybe you have a passion to see this through.  Take care ... just thinking out loud.  Nothing here is intended to be sarcastic.  I apologize in advance if I've worded anything that is ambiguous in that regard.  Don

Don, you've made some valid points and I would support you opening a subject in discussing the points you outlined.  Also, this forum header is called "In-Depth Discussions" and would imply a certain pre-knowledge of haiku and haiku history.  My replies and discussion has not taken into account that beginners would be attracted to the forum and infact I should have emphasized this in the beginning... "Beginners Beware"?  If it has caused undue concern I apologize.  Thanks for your insights.