Concerning English Short Poetry

[chibi575]

ok..I'm up for the challenge. Since the essence of haiku is "poetry of the moment", "flash of lightening behind the mountain", or my:

smile
click
memory

here are a few possible names off the top of my head:

burst
spark
lightbeam
flare
wink
bolt
splash
zoom

I like  LIGHTBEAM the best


now, here's the hard part. In oder for wide acceptance, the word has to be embraced by the majority of the haiku community--and used over an extended period of time.

For example: how do you think a "new word" gets published in a forthcoming edition of Websters International? How you ever thought?

Here's how:

At the annual lexicographer's  convention (I believe they convene in NYC) HUNDREDS of new words are presented--and then voted upon as to which will be added to first the "supplemental" edition and then annexed into the final next edition. The critera: the words that are accepted--invaribly ALL have been used by writers who write articles for the major newspapers, (NY Times numero uno)  and popular or critical magazines. I invented the word "mindache" (a headache specifically the result of overthinking, mental confusion from too much thinking, etc) which is up for consideration, but since no author has used it in a major publication, it has little chance for acceptance

So, if you accept lets say LIGHTBEAM, then it must be used by the majority of well-known haiku experts in well publicized articles, newspapers, etc--in order to get in with the new specialized meaning (Lightbeam..an American shortpoem--similar to haiku--usually 3 lines and less than 17 syllables in duration that captures and expresses a singular moment or experience).

So you see..it's  a daunting challenge and it seems like none of the respondants so far to your post are interested.


good luck,

hairy

hairy, welcome to a daunting challenge... first let me ask, do you mean "lightening" or "lightning"?  If "lightening" as a play on words from "enlightening", I feel this a different deepening than to use "lightning".  I like both, but, those that read it would feel you mean, "lightning" and miss some intent.  Perhaps I read too much into it and it is simply a typo?

Shiki faced a daunting challenge, but, he knew the way to attempt the coinage of "haiku" within the Japanese poet community. 

I think if some well known and respected authority, could suggest a change in the nomenclature, if convinced so.  I speculate that if Bill Higginson, would have suggested this change, it would have happend; but, Bill Higginson is no longer with us, regretfully.  I never had the opportunity during his life to suggest it to him, although, we did discuss aspects of English as well as other languages difficulties on what Japanese characteristics could be ported to other cultures and languages.  I discussed this with him in person, although, privately at the HNA convention in Winston-Salem, 2007.  Also, there are discussion currently in Japan as to specify a delineation between Japanese haiku and other countries/language.  (see a previous post on page one)

I know, but disagree, with the dissolving of English words by disuse, as in your reference (my wife is a professional in Library Sciences and we've regreted some of the annual lexicographer's effort).  Yet, English is a living language and as such shrinks and grows within resolved limits.

I've toyed with the word coinage of ASP "American Short Poem" and ESP, "English Short Poem", although, a bit tongue-in-cheek because "asp" and "esp" both are overloaded in English (one a snake the other a pseudoscience).  If in English we follow the structure used by Shiki but in English context, then it would be a combination similar to ha.i and ku （俳句）or "phrased poetry" (a difficult translation to English at best).  Shiki was reacting to "haikai no renga" or vulgar linked poetry.  So, "phrase poetry" might be a good phrase to represent English language haiku.  Because I like achronimic names, "poam"... (poetry of a momement) hmmmm... that may stick or slide down the wall?

ciao...thanks for your reply

[hairy]

Chibi 575:  oops, I did mean "lightning" --pardon the typo--altho the inadvertant "lightening" does offer possibilities..

I believe "poam" too closely linked with "poem" and some might think it was a typo

"highbeam" just crossed my cranium...it has 2 syllables like haiku,  similar in sound ...and its definition "bright, illumination of a darkened road"..imbues it with some quintessential haiku attributes...


the key now would be to gather maybe 10 or 20  possible words and present them to influential haijin--and hope for the best!

hairy

 

[sandra]

I've toyed with the word coinage of ASP "American Short Poem" and ESP, "English Short Poem" : chibi

Oh dear, oh dear.

Thanks so much, chibi, for dispensing with all those speakers of English who don't happen to be American or English ....

Where shall I start? How about Canadians? Or Scots, Irish, Welsh? Or Australians, New Zealanders, Samoans, Fijians, Tongans, Cook Islanders? Or South Africans, Kenyans, Nigerians, Batswana, Gambians? Or Jamaicans, Barbadians, Belizians? Or Indians, Pakistanis and Sri Lankans? And the list goes on.

If I may be so forward as to speak on behalf of the people and nationalities you've disenfranchised, I wonder how serious you really are. It seems that you've taken a provocative stance but haven't done much thinking to back it up, if the best you can come up with is "American" or "English" short poems.

Humph, etc.

[chibi575]

I've toyed with the word coinage of ASP "American Short Poem" and ESP, "English Short Poem" : chibi

Oh dear, oh dear.

Thanks so much, chibi, for dispensing with all those speakers of English who don't happen to be American or English ....

Where shall I start? How about Canadians? Or Scots, Irish, Welsh? Or Australians, New Zealanders, Samoans, Fijians, Tongans, Cook Islanders? Or South Africans, Kenyans, Nigerians, Batswana, Gambians? Or Jamaicans, Barbadians, Belizians? Or Indians, Pakistanis and Sri Lankans? And the list goes on.

If I may be so forward as to speak on behalf of the people and nationalities you've disenfranchised, I wonder how serious you really are. It seems that you've taken a provocative stance but haven't done much thinking to back it up, if the best you can come up with is "American" or "English" short poems.

Humph, etc.

Sorry, you misunderstood, (mostly my fault); but, I was using American/English as just one example.  Of course, the rule can be applied to any nation (excluding Japan, of course because "haiku" is used in Japan).  I am just exploring, if you have a suggestion for other nations, please I would like to see them.  Yes indeed, the list goes on.  Since I am from the USA, and my native tongue is "English" or should I say "USAian", I was speaking from that perspective.

[chibi575]

Chibi 575:  oops, I did mean "lightning" --pardon the typo--altho the inadvertant "lightening" does offer possibilities..

I believe "poam" too closely linked with "poem" and some might think it was a typo

"highbeam" just crossed my cranium...it has 2 syllables like haiku,  similar in sound ...and its definition "bright, illumination of a darkened road"..imbues it with some quintessential haiku attributes...


the key now would be to gather maybe 10 or 20  possible words and present them to influential haijin--and hope for the best!

hairy

 

Yes, I see your point, "poem" and "POAM" are similar on purpose but could simply be discounted as a typo.  I am thinking more about "phrase-poem".  Of couse, as sandra pointed out this may exclude other languages, but, I feel it possible if a similar name could be translated to the appropriate language, like, Spanish, (and I am guessing) "frase poema" (thanks to sandra I am aware of confusion in my previous message to exclude other nations' languages).

[Lorin]

. . .I like to think of haiku as art, and art evolves and changes over time. Yet the essence of haiku remains.

Besides, what would anyone possibly have to gain by coining another term? How does one decide at what point something has evolved or changed enough to call it something different? And who would have the authority to do this?

. . .

:-\

Gisele, I agree with you as to your overall view, but in regard to the three questions above (which is all I'm responding to here) we might find some sort of answer historically (in Japan) in Shiki, might we not?

[G.R. LeBlanc]

Hi Lorin,

I know that Shiki is the one that coined the term haiku, but I'm not sure exactly what you're saying? Can you elaborate? I can sometimes be a little slow on the uptake.  ;)

[Lorin]

"How is it possible to ignore that much of Shiki's impetus to define the 'haiku' was derived from his espousal of European literary values?"  John Carley

Can you give your source?  I would love to read it. - Dennis

I don't think there is one source, Dennis, but translations of Shiki's own writings on haiku would be the place to begin. Along with Japanese visual artists of the time, Shiki embraced the values of the 'realist' movement in European or Western art and literature of Shiki's time. This is pretty clear in his early 'sketch from life' philosophy, I believe, and you would find it hard to refute it, should you care to do a bit of research reading.

[Lorin]

I'm in the process of getting access to the original Shiki in Japanese.  Then it may take me a long time to see with factual certainty that no haiku existed as such prior to Shiki.

o, dear... Dennis.

Granted, haiku is the term often given retrospectively to Basho's and others' hokku in the wake of Shiki, though there is some evidence that the word 'haiku' was in use in Japan before Shiki, but not to designate what has been termed 'haiku' post-Shiki. . . the single verse which has its origins and counterpart in the hokku of haikai-no-renga, when published separately from the renga.

In a scholarly work, then, perhaps, it would be more technically correct to refer to 'hokku' when writing about pre-Shiki works published in anthologies outside of the context of a complete renga, but the fact that Shiki was successful in changing the name does not change the lineage.

Shiki's name change does seem to cause confusion for some Westerners, though. Maybe this in itself is one reason why more name changing isn't advisable?

[Lorin]

Hi Lorin,

I know that Shiki is the one that coined the term haiku, but I'm not sure exactly what you're saying? Can you elaborate? I can sometimes be a little slow on the uptake.  ;)

Hi Gisele,
               I wouldn't have thought what I said was too difficult. Your questions, if not taken merely as rhetorical, can be answered by the obvious historical precedent, we could look at them thus:

"...what would anyone possibly have to gain by coining another term?"

What did Shiki have to gain, or what did he consider 'haiku' would gain, by coining the term 'haiku'?

"How does one decide at what point something has evolved or changed enough to call it something different?"

How did Shiki decide and at what point in the Japanese history of the genre or form that something had changed (actually, he thought it had degraded into triviality) enough to call it something different?

"And who would have the authority to do this?"

What authority did Shiki have to change the name?

(I guess there was enough agreement that the genre needed reviving and modernising, that his arguments were strong enough and that he had enough support to have his term, 'haiku' generally accepted)

It would seem to me that Shiki's motives were quite different from the motives of those who would now, after more than a century of promoting haiku in other languages, wish to take back 'haiku' as a term reserved for Japanese haiku only. Shiki's motives were to revive and modernise a flagging genre.
What are the motives of those, Japanese and non-Japanese, who now would like haiku in English and other languages to be known by a different name?

As it is, from what I've been told, the Japanese distinguish Japanese haiku (of any flavour) from non-Japanese haiku in the same way that they distinguish loan words from other languages from words of Japanese origin - by writing them in katakana.

Let's not forget that 'haiku' is modern term, coined by Shiki sometime around the end of the C19 or the beginning of the C20, and also that he was eager to embrace Western culture. Heavens, he even wrote haiku on baseball!
 
- Lorin

[chibi575]

I'm in the process of getting access to the original Shiki in Japanese.  Then it may take me a long time to see with factual certainty that no haiku existed as such prior to Shiki.

o, dear... Dennis.

Granted, haiku is the term often given retrospectively to Basho's and others' hokku in the wake of Shiki, though there is some evidence that the word 'haiku' was in use in Japan before Shiki, but not to designate what has been termed 'haiku' post-Shiki. . . the single verse which has its origins and counterpart in the hokku of haikai-no-renga, when published separately from the renga.

In a scholarly work, then, perhaps, it would be more technically correct to refer to 'hokku' when writing about pre-Shiki works published in anthologies outside of the context of a complete renga, but the fact that Shiki was successful in changing the name does not change the lineage.

Shiki's name change does seem to cause confusion for some Westerners, though. Maybe this in itself is one reason why more name changing isn't advisable?

Hi Lorin,

Could you give some direct references on your assertions about Shiki?  I would enjoy reading the same, to see, if something might have been lost in translation.  I have frankly read/translated little so far.  So, by providing such references perhaps I will agree with you.

I think if Bashou would be able to read Shiki's writings on formulating "haiku", he may be completely opposed, but, then Bashou was in a change phase toward the end of his life, if I understand the history.

At any rate, it is quite a challenge untangling fact from the history's written word (and more than doubly so if translation is involved); and, I can tell from your comments that you are completely against a re-naming, but, that's fine.

[Dave Russo]

In regard to the haiku/hokku distinction: it is real, but it is most useful in scholarly contexts. These remarks from David Landis Barnhill might explain why:

"During most of the twentieth century, Western scholars and translators used the term haiku for both modern haiku and premodern hokku. And haiku has thus generally come to be the generally accepted term in the West for both premodern and modern forms. In addition, Basho's hokku now function in modern culture (both in Japan and the West) the same way Shiki's haiku does, as independent verses."

David Landis Barnhill, Basho's Haiku (Albany: State University of New York Press, 2004), page 4.

In the books of translated haiku that I've read by Barnhill, Ueda, and others, the typical approach is to acknowledge the haiku/hokku distinction, then move on. To make a big deal of this distinction now is contrary to standard usage and is therefore more confusing than accepting the status quo . . .

. . . unless your goal is to disrupt the status quo, which I assume chibi would like to do here! That's fine. Confusing, a little irritating, but fine.

[Lorin]

In the books of translated haiku that I've read by Barnhill, Ueda, and others, the typical approach is to acknowledge the haiku/hokku distinction, then move on. To make a big deal of this distinction now is contrary to standard usage and is therefore more confusing than accepting the status quo . . .

Yup, Dave, I can confirm that this is the typical contemporary approach and wholeheartedly agree with it for the reasons you give. Any other approach now is either misguided or deliberately mischievous.

[chibi575]

In regard to the haiku/hokku distinction: it is real, but it is most useful in scholarly contexts. These remarks from David Landis Barnhill might explain why:

"During most of the twentieth century, Western scholars and translators used the term haiku for both modern haiku and premodern hokku. And haiku has thus generally come to be the generally accepted term in the West for both premodern and modern forms. In addition, Basho's hokku now function in modern culture (both in Japan and the West) the same way Shiki's haiku does, as independent verses."

David Landis Barnhill, Basho's Haiku (Albany: State University of New York Press, 2004), page 4.

In the books of translated haiku that I've read by Barnhill, Ueda, and others, the typical approach is to acknowledge the haiku/hokku distinction, then move on. To make a big deal of this distinction now is contrary to standard usage and is therefore more confusing than accepting the status quo . . .

. . . unless your goal is to disrupt the status quo, which I assume chibi would like to do here! That's fine. Confusing, a little irritating, but fine.

Dave have we met?

It's a bit unsettling for you giving me a blind-side "compliment" asserting the idea of misnaming/re-naming is "... Confusing, a little irritating, but fine."  

I feel the "status quo" is simply wrong and misguided causing the deeper confusion we have today about "haiku".  If you don't believe it being deeply confusing today, just read what passes for "haiku" today.  I do not apologize for having my beliefs even though they may be judged confusing, irritating, but fine by you.  Although, I do feel your remark a bit condescending.  I will concede that what I say may be disruptive, but, I not only said it here, but, other places to with conviction. (See my first post on page one).

As to siting "... to acknowledge the haiku/hokku distinction, then move on. ..." I just don't buy that we've acknowledged it to the degree we need or else we just wouldn't simply moved on the way we have.

[G.R. LeBlanc]

I wouldn't have thought what I said was too difficult. Your questions, if not taken merely as rhetorical, can be answered by the obvious historical precedent, we could look at them thus:

Hi Lorin,

It may be obvious to anyone who is quite knowledgeable on the subject, but I am definitely not an expert on Shiki so I wasn't sure what you were implying with your questions. I agree that his motives at the time seem quite different from the motives that are spurring the current debate, which is why I still don't see how the historical precedent can answer what we have to gain? The circumstances are so different.  :-\

All I know is that I love haiku, I love writing it, I love reading it, and I love sharing it. And that's enough for me.

Oh, and I did not know that Shiki wrote haiku on baseballs! I really do need to start reading up on him. He sounds like he was a fascinating person.

Anyhow, thanks again for your input. It's appreciated. :)

Gisele