? haiku or senryu ?

[Gabi Greve]

Take this for example (I make it up for this purpose)


winter night -
the neighbours quarrel
again


If you ask me to comment on this, I will first ask back:
Did you want to write a haiku or a senryu?

if your answer is

I do not care, call it what you like !

then this is the end of my commenting.


if you say HAIKU
I might have this to say:

Go for a better kigo to fit the situation. In winter most windows are closed and you might not hear the neighbours.

sultry night -
the neigbhours quarrel
again


if you say SENRYU
I might have this to say:

forget about the season and tell us more about the human condition.

thin walls -
the neigbhours quarrel
again

or

trailor park -
the neigbhours quarrel
again


So there is a difference in the response and the way I would advise in a workshopping situation!

Gabi

with respect to your information in the glossary for definitions ...

http://www.thehaikufoundation.org/forum_sm/new-to-haiku-free-discussion/organic-glossary/

.

[Grace]

I found this definition online. Unfortunately I had visited so many sites, I can't remember where I read it. I only remember there was no author associated with it.


haiku - the charm of the ephemeral

I thought that quite beautiful.

[Gael Bage]

hello Gabi, where I flounder a bit here is I think due to how I see humanity in the context of life, simply put, I see myself as a small part of nature, equally as wonderful as the rest of nature. I don't see us as separate or superior just unique as the rest of nature is unique and interrelated.  Monkeys can use tools and experience self doubt as we can, plants when cloned can recognise self and communicate with the new cloned plants... ok they may not do things in the same way as us but there are things they do that we can't. Harder to separate out if seen as one whole nature that just is.

[Gabi Greve]

hi Gael,
that is just right!

humanity is part of nature, is part of haiku !!

Check the WKD for all the kigo about humanity and observances .. the rich life of us human beings within the seasons ... all part of a fullfilled daily haiku life !

http://worldkigodatabase.blogspot.com/


Good night from Japan !
Gabi

[Gael Bage]

thank you Gabi, then it leaves me wondering why do western haijin always advise us to take self out of a ku, as long as we are not directing the reader, or leaving a heavy thumb print, but sticking to simple facts/ observences, I see no harm.  :)

[Gabi Greve]

why do western haijin always advise us to take self out of a ku, as long as we are not directing the reader, or leaving a heavy thumb print, but sticking to simple facts/ observences, I see no harm.

Good morning from Japan, dear Gael,

I see no harm myself (coming from the Japanese side of haiku, which is defined by its form, not by its content).

I copy this from another thread :

I am always curious about pronouns in haiku
is there a rule?Judi

In Japanese haiku they are used when necessary, in ELH, editors have their own views about this.

My Japanese sensei always says

Haiku is the poetry of the first person.

There are many different words to be used when talking about oneself in Japanese, differing on the social status of the other person and whether a man, woman or child is talking.
But this is a different problem of the Japanese language.

ware 吾 我
watakushi 私
wagami, waga mi, waga-mi 我が身 "my body"


Kobayashi Issa :

yuugure ya kagashi to ware to tada futari

evening falls--
me and a scarecrow
just us two


ware shinaba haka mori to nare kirigirisu

when I die
guard my grave
katydid!


ikana hi mo uguisu hitori ware hitori kana

whatever the day brings
the nightingale's alone
I'm alone


and many more to be found here
http://wkdhaikutopics.blogspot.com/2008/02/i-first-person.html

This is just a reminder about terms and definitions :

Traditional Japanese Haiku

It is very important that you feel free to write a haiku your way.
But there are certain basic conditions which you as a haiku poet are supposed to observe.

three sections 5 7 5 (three lines short/long/short)
one season word
one cut marker

Haiku is seen as formal poetry (yuuki teikei, yuki teikei).

(slightly simplified, according to Inahata Teiko)
http://www.kyoshi.or.jp/inv-haiku/basic.htm

. . . . .


English Language Haiku (ELH)   (compared to the above)

no restrictions as to the lines
no season word needed
no cut marker needed

Restrictions to the "contents" ,
as expressed in the many "rulz" and Do's and Dont's by various poets, editors etc. , based on personal opinions. 
These rulz come and go, as there are no formal criteria when writing ELH.

http://wkdhaikutopics.blogspot.com/2007/02/haiku-definitions.html

. . . . .

I hope this is all not too confusing
Gabi

[AlanSummers]

Hi Gael,

Gael said:

thank you Gabi, then it leaves me wondering why do western haijin always advise us to take self out of a ku, as long as we are not directing the reader, or leaving a heavy thumb print, but sticking to simple facts/ observences, I see no harm.  :)

I don't know which westerners have said this, but there are a lot of clichés and misunderstandings in the West, and we don't have enough high quality translations of Japanese haiku, or even contemporary haiku, that would help.

I tend to veer away from using haijin because it denotes a Japanese haikai literature writer to be an expert in haiga, calligraphy, haiku, haibun, and renga and renku.  I think it's best to just say haiku writer or haiku poet. ;-)

Leaving a smeary thumbprint is a good way to think when putting yourself into the middle of a haiku.  Like all good writing you have to consider how relevant it is, and what does it add to the poem itself to the reader.

Issa used the method of first person to great effect in his part-factual haikai verses (he didn't write haiku) but it was also a thing of the time that some poets would go wandering, and suffer poverty (even if that wasn't strictly true with him).

A fine contemporary example of someone using first person is John Stevenson, and you could also get a collection from Gary Hotham who almost always puts himself into his poems.

Both poets are American.  If you want to see a review I did of John Stevenson's Live Again you are more than welcome to message me privately, as I can't locate it in THF. ;-)

Alan

[Mariu Moreno]

Hi Gabi
Like Gael, I have been wondering about the boundaries between Senryu and Haiku, and many times I found myself taking me out of haiku for the sake of not letting human nature get in. For what I see in this discussion, haiku remains haiku even when pronouns are used or a personal vision of a moment is included. That is to say, not for these appearing it is a senryu instead of a haiku.
But what about when we include words that refer to things invented by men ("ring of a phone", for instance)? Is it a senryu JUSTfor the presence of a word or expression like that?
I have written a haiku about my baby children taking a bath, but the topic seems more senryu like, does it not?
Another thing, when you started this discussion, you asked whether the intention of the poet is to write a haiku of a senryu. Is is always like that? Do we have to make a choice considering both categories? I mean, do we have to consider our intention every time?
Thank you!
All my best from Argentina.

[Gabi Greve]

Dear Mariu

things are different in Japan and in ELH circles.
I usually advise my haiku friends in line with the Japanese tradition.

There haiku is defined by its form (short-long-short, one season word, one cut marker) and can contain any words and any subjects that come up in the situation the poet wants to write about.
If you include a season word, you are in the realm of haiku. Humanity is part of haiku, writing about ME and MY children and MY beloved wife is part and parcel of Japanese haiku (you can find many sampels in the World Kigo Database).
Season words include two categories that are only concerned with what we humans do during the seasons, they are called "humanity" (about food and drink, clothing, homes etc.) and "observances" (about annual festivals and rituals).
So you see, humanity with all their acitivities are part of haiku,
just as they are part of senryu.
Many haiku are humorous and funny, HAI even means this.


ELH, on the other hand, does not have such simple and clear definitinos in most forums (there are some that consider teikei, the haiku form, important) and thus the confusion about haiku and senryu. Many ELH editors have made up their own "guidelines" for their magazines.

You can read more Japanese haiku, senryu and about zappai, another type of haiku-derived poetry in Japan
http://haikutopics.blogspot.com/2006/12/senryu-and-haiku.html

Haiku, Senryu, Zappai (俳句, 川柳, 雑俳)

A traditional Japanese haiku poet has made up his mind to write haiku and thus adheres to the "three formal conditions" of haiku.
See Inahata Teiko
http://wkdhaikutopics.blogspot.com/2007/02/haiku-definitions.html

Gabi

.

[Gael Bage]

Smiling here Alan, I agree, though I once entered a poem (not haiku ) in a competition and won a wonderful weekend in Brighton learning about calligraphy, I learned how to hold a brush and write a little, and still have the brush in my art stuff.
   Gabi, thank you for that careful explanation, I think i should have been born Japanese, as my heart definitely veers towards their view.  ;D

[cat]

Hello, Mariu,

Gabi san has given you the complete run-down, and it's good to learn these things.

But in every day writing practice, it can be crazy-making and also an energy vampire to think too much about labels.  Write what you want to write.  Send it out, as most journals are receptive to both haiku and senryu and don't ask you to choose a term for your work.  (Some of the competitions and Prune Juice -- which focuses on senryu and kyoka -- are exceptions.)

One of my colleagues used to have a poster on his classroom wall that said, "Label jars, not people."  I would say "poems" could be substituted for "people" in that.  Sometimes the theoretical can help the practical, but it can also get in the way of the writing by pulling focus away from what makes a poem effective, which is after all the main goal.

Just some thoughts.

cat

 

[Mariu Moreno]

Thank you so much Gabi and Cat!!
I've gone through the links and they have been most clarifying. Thanks a lot.
I didn't even know about Zappai! Today has been a day of discovery, I'm so glad!
Cheers!

[Gabi Greve]

But in every day writing practice, it can be crazy-making and also an energy vampire to think too much about labels.  Write what you want to write.  Send it out, as most journals are receptive to both haiku and senryu and don't ask you to choose a term for your work.  (Some of the competitions and Prune Juice -- which focuses on senryu and kyoka -- are exceptions.)

One of my colleagues used to have a poster on his classroom wall that said, "Label jars, not people."  I would say "poems" could be substituted for "people" in that.  Sometimes the theoretical can help the practical, but it can also get in the way of the writing by pulling focus away from what makes a poem effective, which is after all the main goal.
cat

Well, traditional Japanses haiku is FORMAL poetry.
You have to make the effort to learn the form  before writing it well.
(stress is here on "make an effort")

It has been debated a lot ... what remains if you loose the form and just write short poems?
But that is another debate.

Gabi

[cat]

Dear Gabi san,

I am not suggesting one should not be mindful of one's craft and the elements one includes in one's poems.  I consider that a given.

But I think putting things into boxes -- getting out the label gun and trying to decide if this is this or this is that -- is truly an energy vampire.  When I'm thinking about what to call something after it's written, I'm wasting my time.

This won the Traditional Haiku category in the 2010 HaikuNow! competition here at THF.  Would it have even been submitted if Day were dividing her poems into haiku/senryu categories?

war memorial
the shine on a bronze soldier
from so many hands
~Cherie Hunter Day

I still feel the labeling is the province of editors, who are more attuned to the lit-crit enterprise.  Those involved in the process of creation should eschew labels if the work is to reach its full potential.

Just my opinion.

cat

[Gabi Greve]

Well, Cat
we have now figured out  the difference between
traditional Japanese haiku and the attitude of traditional Japanese haiku poets

versus

EHL haiku poets in an ELH environment  very clearly.



I think it is necessary for beginners to be aware of this difference.

Thank you.

Gabi