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In-depth discussion?

Started by Adam Traynor, November 01, 2012, 05:02:31 PM

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Adam Traynor

I have not logged into the Forums for some time now. Last time I did, I was disappointed to see how little discussion there was on the forum. That seems even more true now. The forum, at least as far as "in depth discussion" goes, appears dead. I wonder why.

Yes, I could get something started myself, I guess, but it looks like recent attempts have gone nowhere. The shell game for example, which was fun and informative, stuttered and died at its last attempt. Sails has bailed out. And so on.

So why is this? Do people not have the time, or the interest? Some interesting and challenging books have come out lately-- where's the discussion?

Or maybe it could be that some people are just like me-- unwilling to start something that few if any will respond to.

AlanSummers

Dear Tray,

Thank you for the post.

I guess the bottom line is that the people who have created dicussions in the past are the very ones now too busy working.  There a vast number of projects behind the scenes, not just THF, but elsewhere, and they all take time.

I'm a full-time haiku poet in that I earn my income almost exclusively running haiku and haikai literature events, workshops, readings etc...  I have no time to spare, being a freelance poet, but I do make time I can ill afford to post feedback on haiku posted for commentary.

There are just not many people with both the time and the income to buy that time, alas, to start and continue a discussion.

Please do consider starting a post for in-depth discussion though: We have had many new members, and I'm sure many of them would support you.

Would you have anything in mind that you could start?

kindest regards,

Alan


Quote from: tray on November 01, 2012, 05:02:31 PM
I have not logged into the Forums for some time now. Last time I did, I was disappointed to see how little discussion there was on the forum. That seems even more true now. The forum, at least as far as "in depth discussion" goes, appears dead. I wonder why.

Yes, I could get something started myself, I guess, but it looks like recent attempts have gone nowhere. The shell game for example, which was fun and informative, stuttered and died at its last attempt. Sails has bailed out. And so on.

So why is this? Do people not have the time, or the interest? Some interesting and challenging books have come out lately-- where's the discussion?

Or maybe it could be that some people are just like me-- unwilling to start something that few if any will respond to.
Alan Summers,
founder, Call of the Page
https://www.callofthepage.org

lulu

Tray --

You are right. It has been disappointing that there have been so few in-depth discussions because there is so much about today's haiku today to talk about, but perhaps, here's one reason – and in a very real way, it is a tribute to the ever-stimulating Haiku Foundation site.

It appears to me that the very people who had often taken part in some of the in-depth discussions have moved their energy (and time) over to the "Mentoring" section, both for beginners (where they critique new poets), but especially to the advanced site. All of a sudden there is a place for many well-known haijin to give and get feedback on their existing – almost daily – work. It is a magnet, an instant gratification that's too good to pass up. Some haiku entries have many responses, with varied and interesting commentary. One recent entry prompted 20 responses, including interesting analyses and notes such as "enjoyable thread" and "great discussion."

These sites, of course, do not make up for the really stimulating exchanges that had been, as you said, so much a part of THF in-depth discussions at one time. The interesting thing to me is that, as far as I know, there is absolutely no other place to go to share commentaries on a more advanced level. For example, I just read an essay in Haibun Today that I would have liked to rebut, but there was no place within the journal to send it. Now that I think about it, and after reading your comment, I could have highlighted that part of the article and talked about it in the in-depth discussion site (giving proper attribution, etc.).

All of this is to say, thanks for your comment, and reminding those of us who love THF site, that there is a place to talk about haiku and be heard. Perhaps your remarks will stimulate some new submissions. 
 


AlanSummers

Dear Lulu,

Thank you for the time you have committed to replying to Tray's post.

Many of us who are experienced haiku writers pride ourselves on the support we give to new people interested in haiku.  There are a number of commentators on the mentoring section who were themselves very new to the genre not so long ago.

The mentoring section is a very useful and highly successful workshop feature of THF.

I too miss the addition of in-depth dicussions, and urge yourself and Tray to post some discussions.  They would be gladly received.

kindest regards,

Alan

Quote from: lulu on November 02, 2012, 02:18:42 PM
Tray --

You are right. It has been disappointing that there have been so few in-depth discussions because there is so much about today's haiku today to talk about, but perhaps, here's one reason – and in a very real way, it is a tribute to the ever-stimulating Haiku Foundation site.

It appears to me that the very people who had often taken part in some of the in-depth discussions have moved their energy (and time) over to the "Mentoring" section, both for beginners (where they critique new poets), but especially to the advanced site. All of a sudden there is a place for many well-known haijin to give and get feedback on their existing – almost daily – work. It is a magnet, an instant gratification that's too good to pass up. Some haiku entries have many responses, with varied and interesting commentary. One recent entry prompted 20 responses, including interesting analyses and notes such as "enjoyable thread" and "great discussion."

These sites, of course, do not make up for the really stimulating exchanges that had been, as you said, so much a part of THF in-depth discussions at one time. The interesting thing to me is that, as far as I know, there is absolutely no other place to go to share commentaries on a more advanced level. For example, I just read an essay in Haibun Today that I would have liked to rebut, but there was no place within the journal to send it. Now that I think about it, and after reading your comment, I could have highlighted that part of the article and talked about it in the in-depth discussion site (giving proper attribution, etc.).

All of this is to say, thanks for your comment, and reminding those of us who love THF site, that there is a place to talk about haiku and be heard. Perhaps your remarks will stimulate some new submissions. 

Alan Summers,
founder, Call of the Page
https://www.callofthepage.org

Adam Traynor

I tend to believe that the issue is not that people are too busy to engage. I don't think that people are busier now than they were during the first year or two of Troutswirl, when people like Richard Gilbert, Philip Rowland, Scott Metz, Ed Markowski, Peter Yovu, Paul Miller, John Stevenson, and Jack Galmitz among others, were regular contributors. Seldom see any of the them here now.

So I don't know. But I do notice that even over on Scot Metz' blog, there is little discussion. Maybe some of the excitement over the "new ku" has settled. Maybe the whole process of online conversation is too clunky, and frustrating-- there were certainly complaints about that in the "good old days".

My one suggestion for stimulating conversation would be to pick a recent book and offer it up. Most of the above names have new(isn) books out and there are others, including Haiku 21 and the Red Moon Press series featuring Kaneko Tohta, the last of which is a selection of his haiku.

In the meantime, an open question to all who used to contribute and no longer do: where are you?


JGalmitz

#5
Tray
I can only speak for myself about my complete loss of interest in engaging in dialogues about haiku at The Haiku Foundation.
Oddly, for a form originally (renku) that was a social event, what the newest most modern art has been described as-relational aesthetics-I find haiku poets like old Romantics, persons seeking their personal visions as if they were privileged visions of God (in the quiet of their rooms). They share little and many, imo, are the most awful examples of egoists I have ever seen.
I wrote a full length academic book-VIEWS (Cybernet Press) of 227 pages of theoretical analysis of modern haiku (through fourteen different authors); the choice of authors is not as important as the critical analysis of the works, because the analyses go far beyond the individual authors and really encompass the totality of the world-view and dynamics of the art.
Only 15 copies sold. Peter Yovu (who has dropped out of  the haiku scene because of feelings similar to my own) wrote a long comment in the posting about the book at the Roadrunner blog-he urged everyone to buy the book; with disappointment that some authors were not included and some poor editing (typos left within), he said nonetheless the book was the most important one we had on the subject, the only real one we had on the subject.
He received absolutely not one reply.
I have not received any replies (except from friends Paul Pfleuger, Mariu-ki Moreno, Susan Diridoni).
The book took approximately a year to write and a lifetime of academic learning to achieve. For about 8 months now essays from the book have appeared at Roadrunner and A Hundred Gourds and NFTG (until they summarily rejected one essay they had previously accepted because they found it too radical for them) and then they had the f....g nerve to just close up shop a couple of weeks before the last issue was due and now they have the f....g nerve to return (as if nothing happened).
Because of the cost of the book ($25), I put it up at Scribd for free, so people could read it for free (this was really somewhat wrong because Cyberwit had taken  on the full cost of publication and deserves to earn their money back. I received 2 complimentary copies and the author of the long intro, Dr. Beth Vieira, former Prof. at UC Berkely, received 2 complimentary copies.
So, I have nothing financially to gain from all the above and the book.
The fact that there are so few people interested or capable of conversation about the subject has led me to eschew THF, and, in fact, I have turned out quite a bit of longer poems (seen at The Letter Project), Word Riot, Unrorean, visual art at Otoliths,Spinozablue, the cover of a new journal called Bop Dead City, and other projects.
Have you read VIEWS? Would you care to and then use it as a starting point for serious discussion?
Yours,
Jack

Karen Cesar

Just a quick note to say thank you to Jack Galmitz for VIEWS. Since I have (temporarily?) deactivated my Facebook account this is the only way I know to contact Jack to tell him...THANK YOU!

Like you, I am somewhat disenchanted with haiku discussion at the moment. Your book is an example of how a haiku discussion should be conducted and so often isn't. Thank you again.

Best,

Karen


Jack Galmitz

Thank you so much Karen.
I thought even my somewhat irritated remarks would go-per usual-without any response.
For a supposedly sensitive, focused, receptive group of poets, they sure know how to miss things when they want, which is usually the case.

AlanSummers

Dear Adam aka Tray, Lulu, Karen and Jack, and other writers,

I would welcome one or more of you opening up a discussion topic on THF about approaches to haiku writing.   Also would anyone like to open up a topic on reading haiku approaches for newcomers to the genre?

Personally I have a heavy workload, both paid and unpaid, but I do enjoy regularly reading discussions on haiku and haikai literature.

Please do feel welcome to start up new topics for discussions.

kindest regards,

Alan

Code of Conduct:
http://www.thehaikufoundation.org/code-of-conduct/


Quote from: Jack Galmitz on November 19, 2012, 01:05:24 AM
Thank you so much Karen.
I thought even my somewhat irritated remarks would go-per usual-without any response.
For a supposedly sensitive, focused, receptive group of poets, they sure know how to miss things when they want, which is usually the case.
Alan Summers,
founder, Call of the Page
https://www.callofthepage.org

Adam Traynor

I would vote for a discussion on the role of criticism in haiku.

AlanSummers

Dear Tray,

Excellent topic.  Please go ahead and put up a new post about it.  I'm sure it would garner a lot of interest.

Alan


Quote from: tray on November 19, 2012, 04:12:13 PM
I would vote for a discussion on the role of criticism in haiku.
Alan Summers,
founder, Call of the Page
https://www.callofthepage.org

Adam Traynor

Alan and all: right now, there's a decent discussion happening in "and this is a haiku because". I've been checking that out and I might want to post something there about sentimentality and also in response to Paul Miller's post. So, maybe after that, we can get something going about criticism. Thank you.

Adam Traynor

Adam Traynor

Right now, frankly I do not feel encouraged to start upon a subject for serious discussion. I will continue to watch the boards, and if someone else wants to start, I'll jump on board.

AlanSummers

Tray, and others, there's a new feature called Field Notes ripe for discussion.  30 of us have had our viewpoints on Where do your haiku begin? posted, and others have posted their views: http://www.thehaikufoundation.org/forum_sm/index.php?board=21.0

Peter Yovu has given some good points as to how viewers can engage in the discussion:
http://www.thehaikufoundation.org/forum_sm/index.php?topic=5088.0

warm regards,

Alan



http://www.thehaikufoundation.org/forum_sm/index.php?board=21.0

Quote from: tray on November 29, 2012, 06:18:12 PM
Right now, frankly I do not feel encouraged to start upon a subject for serious discussion. I will continue to watch the boards, and if someone else wants to start, I'll jump on board.
Alan Summers,
founder, Call of the Page
https://www.callofthepage.org

Adam Traynor

I have seen the new forum and have read some of it. There's a lot to go through. Since I gave the challenge a while ago, it's probably fair that I write something. So that's what I'll do right now.

Thank you,

Tray

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