The Seashell Game - Round 4

[Lorin]

coming from the English, I have the following musings:

maple leaf (kaede no ha) ... that could be a green leaf in spring and summer and is not a kigo.
red maple leaf is a kigo, on the other hand.

So maybe the poet is observing a delivery in the garden or the veranda  of a home in summer?


red right hand ... I am looking forward to David explaining this !!


Gabi

Hi Gabi, ...true that 'maple leaf' alone does not show Autumn, but when one says 'a maple leaf has become a... red hand..., surely that shows that the leaf has become red , and this implies an Autumn leaf?
---
I forgot to say, in my post above, that I very much like the rhythm of this poem in English. It rolls more naturally and rhythmically off the tongue than the 'dew' poem.

- Lorin

[Gabi Greve]

Hi Gabi, ...true that 'maple leaf' alone does not show Autumn, but when one says 'a maple leaf has become a... red hand..., surely that shows that the leaf has become red , and this implies an Autumn leaf?

Well, the whole point of Japanese kigo is to state the season, not imply it thoughout the whole text.

it's become a midwife's
red right hand...
maple leaf

This makes me wonder why the poet did not use the kigo (check maple leaf in the online dict. it gives kaede no ha)

Did he have a special reason for implying the season as he did? It does not make much difference to the contents, grant you that.
But it makes a difference to the way this haiku would be placed in a Japanese saijiki.

as it is now, it is a zappai (miscellanous) or maybe even a senryu ?

If it were like this, it would be placed in autumn

it's become a midwife's
right hand...
red maple leaf


To me, what this haiku seems to say is simply this :

A red maple leaf reminds me of / looks like / ...   the right hand of a midwife.

Gabi
.

[Lorin]

Well, the whole point of Japanese kigo is to state the season, not imply it thoughout the whole text.


Gabi
.

hmmm... my kigo education is far from complete, as you know, Gabi, but will you tell me how, for example "ants out of a hole" states the season? Or (I just did a quick & random scan through the wikipedia article, to save time) how "sea-devil stew" (ankō nabe) states the season?

To my mind, most of the kigo imply the season, including those two I mention above and the old faithfuls, "moon viewing" and "distant thunder".

What I'm inferring, though, is that you mean that once a word or phrase has officially become a kigo, , that is, listed in a saijiki, the game is to incorporate that word or phrase precisely as it's listed.

But can poetry be reduced to such a game? And if we regard haiku as poetry, then can we apply such strict parlour game rules to it?

- Lorin

[Gabi Greve]

What I'm inferring, though, is that you mean that once a word or phrase has officially become a kigo, , that is, listed in a saijiki, the game is to incorporate that word or phrase precisely as it's listed.

But can poetry be reduced to such a game?
And if we regard haiku as poetry, then can we apply such strict parlour game rules to it?



As to your first statement, yes, that is what I wanted to say. Sorry my German mind takes over sometimes and my explanation was not clear enough.

As for your question, I can not answer for what  "WE"  feel.
All I can say is that traditional Japanese haiku works that way,
it is formal poetry and adheres to the form  (5 7 5 , one kigo, one cut marker).
Many haiku poets up till our time have used this form and still love to use it.

If "WE"  think that makes it a "parlour game", so be it.

Gabi

[Gabi Greve]

Talking about "parlor games" . . .

the seashell game is such a game.

The poets present at a meeting are asked to write about a certain theme, usually a kigo

In this game, it was momiji . . .
LEFT choose to compare the red autumn leaves to the hand of a midwive.
RIGHT chooses to write about the absence of it.

It is now up to the judge to decide which one is better or worse, more imaginative or whatever criteria are used to decide such a game.

Enjoy your decisionmaking.

Gabi

[Peter Yovu]

I would like (and truly hope) to make a couple of things clear: I am not a "global moderator"-- that's Jim Kacian. The designation is there (on the panel to the left of the my posts) by mistake, and as I said in a prior post, that will be rectified.

If anyone thought I was in any position to direct this thread in any way, that is a misperception possibly bolstered by my first post, which I copy and italicize here:

I, for one, intend to respond based on what David has presented. He has said they are "versions", not literal or close translations. I don't know how else to proceed. I'll check in later.

This was only meant to express what at that moment was a feeling of frustration (which I admitted in a later post) which I soon recognized in itself could put a crimp in the discussion. It was meant as a suggestion, though I was heavy handed about it. When I said "I'll check in later" I only meant I was not prepared at that moment to go on with some thoughts about the poems, but would come back to do that.
David came in and made his intentions clear, and I stood corrected.

I try my best to be clear, especially as I recognize that things like "tone" can easily be lost or misread in communications such as these.

If anyone wishes to discuss this further, please contact me by email. I'll add that I'm thankful for a private conversation I have had about this which helped me understand what may have happened. Thanks.

[Lorin]

hmmm...I think see what you mean as far as 'seashell game' goes, Gabi. Yes, I know it originated in a parlour game which paired shells, similar to some of the card games many of us played as kids. But I've heard that that Basho raised it to a level of critical comparison and a way of teaching. I haven't read his 'seashell games' writings, though. Not even sure if they've been translated.

So, is what you're saying something like, "Because these two poems, as translated, don't have precisely same stated kigo, they can't legitimately be compared in a traditional, Basho-style 'seashell game'?

- Lorin

[Lorin]

ah, Peter, thanks for the enlightenment.

So we don't need to treat you as if you were a galactic overlord or the like, then?   ;D

I must say that combination of 'Global Moderator' combined with that alien-looking cat or alligator eye glinting at one from the left hand border was a tad intimidating.

Thanks for explaining!

- Lorin

[Gabi Greve]

So, is what you're saying something like, "Because these two poems, as translated, don't have precisely same stated kigo, they can't legitimately be compared in a traditional, Basho-style 'seashell game'?

I think this is an English Language Sea Shell Game,
David has presented some haiku in original English and some translated from other languages, including Japanese so far.

If he thinks they can be compared, that is fine with me.

Whether the translations can be improved or not is a different question, maybe to be discussed in a thread about translations.

Poet LEFT:

it's become a midwife's
red right hand...
maple leaf

Poet RIGHT:

no autumn reddening for me -
come look!
oak branch dew


Gabi

[sandra]

I suppose by now you know that I am game for ... a game and am generally a good sport, despite not being terribly "good" at games (or sports). But I am a trier. :)

Ahem.

Poet LEFT:

it's become a midwife's
red right hand...
maple leaf


Poet RIGHT:

no autumn reddening for me -
come look!
oak branch dew

I choose poet LEFT.

Because? The poet has thought about the observation and the poem feels as though there is plenty of back story, tragedy probably. I'm swimming in tragedy just now, along with all the 4m people that live in my country, but especially those who are dying, injured, grieving and frightened in Christchurch.

This poem speaks to me (that is, the fibre of what is me, to my waters). It is about elemental things, earth, air, fire. It is true and it is about the core of being a human. I am a woman who has given birth and who has been in the care of a midwife for the delivery. This is my poem.

The other is someone showing off - look! - (don't tell me what to do, mate, I'll look if I want to). And the poetry seems mundane. "oak branch dew", pah! Send him back to write out poem LEFT 500 times.

Vote cast.

[Don Baird]

it's become a midwife's
red right hand...
maple leaf

It's curious as to why "left" didn't write it this way:

it's become a midwife's
right hand ...
red maple leaf

To me, that would have cinched it.  But, as it stands, it feels awkward, though less so in some way as compared to "right".

"Right" on the other hand, as mentioned, has an awkward rhythm to it and is lacking in anything really interesting.  I do like simple observations ... but I don't think the poem settles well there either.

To me:  they're a tie!  No vote for either!  Let Basho call it!  :)

Don

[Lorin]

" I'm swimming in tragedy just now, along with all the 4m people that live in my country, but especially those who are dying, injured, grieving and frightened in Christchurch."

...and no doubt, there will be women giving birth in the midst of it all, too. I've been following the news of the Christchurch earthquake, Sandra. Pleased to know you're not among the dead or injured, but of course it's a great shock and ongoing stress for all of you.

best wishes,

- Lorin

[Peter Yovu]

Yes, my vote to poem LEFT for being the more organic-- for locating the human in a context of nature, and nature in the context of humanity-- an intersubjecivity.

[David Lanoue]

Poet LEFT: "real" name Sanboku

it's become a midwife's
red right hand...
maple leaf


Poet RIGHT: "real" name Dasoku

no autumn reddening for me -
come look!
oak branch dew

I put "real" in quotes since these were their made-up haiku names, just as "Basho" was.

Here's what Basho had to say about these two haiku, as translated by Makoto Ueda in Matsuo Basho (Tokyo: Kodansha, 1970) 149.

The first poem employs a unique conceit in dealing with the subject of colored leaves. The second is well said, but it shows the poet to be a man of queer tastes: he likes a colorless oak tree and has no liking for the world of colors. The first poem suggests, with its lines about a midwife's red right hand, that the poet is well versed both in the art of love and in the skill of giving birth to vigorous language. It ranks thousands of leagues above the second poem. Therefore, if invited to come and look at such a happy product, the writer of the oak poem should withdraw his wooden sword and flee.

What do you think of Basho's judgment--both its content and tone? Does it tell us anything about our view of haiku in the 21st century? Are we still playing the Seashell Game by the same rules--or have the rules of what constitutes a good haiku changed over the past 339 years?

[Gabi Greve]

Here's what Basho had to say about these two haiku, as translated by Makoto Ueda in Matsuo Basho (Tokyo: Kodansha, 1970) 149.

Dear David,
could you also post the translations of Ueda for both of the haiku in this game?

It would be much appreciated, since I do not posess the book.

Thanks so much !
Gabi