Is the Clock Ticking on Haiku?

[AlanSummers]

Thanks John. 

Helen just shows us we can be completely fresh about moon haiku, and a lot of other haiku subjects covered so well in the past, that need new writers to approach them their way, but as relevant.

Alan

[Lorin]

The moon is something we all share. It's so universal that, from the old Japanese masters to today's EL haiku, it appears perennially, yet its possibilities in haiku seems undiminished.

Here are four from the selections I made for the first four issues of Notes From the Gean', one from each issue:

rising moon
my knife divides
the fish's belly

-Graham Nunn, Australia, NFTG, vol. 1, issue 1


strawberry moon
all night something huge
romps in the attic

Carolyn Hall, USA  - NFTG, vol. 1, issue 2


snow moon eclipse eclipsed by snow

Ann K. Schwader, USA - NFTG, vol. 1, issue 3


milk moon
their faces tilt
in turn

Helen Buckingham, UK  -NFTG, vol. 1, issue 4

- Lorin

[Don Baird]

Hi Alan,

While I really enjoyed your post it is off topic in a way.  The concept I'm bringing out here (not my idea, actually ... more of relaying what I have read) is for example:

what if the haiku started out,

the moon

... only.  Not another fragment but the moon.  No other subsitutions.  What would be the math of how many phrases that could be made before we ran out of any possible variance?  That's the specific question of my post.  I think the responses are off topic at this point.  It isn't about expertise either, actually.  It's one of math.  The original question was posed by folks in Japan during the wars over the need of kigo (that's my undesrtanding ... I had ran across an article about it awhile back and was pondering it ... now, I can't find the darn article ... sigh!)  And, ps ... to it all ... I'm not saying that my inquisition reflects my personal beliefs either.  I just posted this for the sake of exchange.  I'm not posting this as a stance, a belief or a suggestion.  What I have here is a simple question.  

Is there a finite numer of finishes to a poem that starts out, the moon?  With only a phrase left and a max of 12 syllables, is there a finite number of finishes we can use or is it still infinite.  And, if you believe it is infinite, how would you theorize a proof of that?

An interesting topic.  I wish I created it, actually.  But, I didn't.  This is something I ran across in my reading and then was too dumb to save the link!  Now, that is how I annoy myself sometimes!  LOL

What's the math?  And, in that math ... is it finite or infinite?

all my best and of utmost respect...

Don

[chibi575]

.
mooning
the moon --
moonroof

(special car-eography)

:D ??? ;D

[Don Baird]

Hey Chibi,

Great.  Now, I have an idea.  Will you write one hundred of these?  Same kigo?  "the moon" .  Then if we can get four other people to write one hundred each, when finished, we reveal them and see how many come to close match.  From there, we can create a formula that might predict, based on the complexity of the fragment/kigo ... how many close matches we will have on another five hundred as well as extrapolate it into a formula that would apply to ten thousand ...?  Of course, I'm just a poet and martial teacher ... but surely there is a mathmetician that can help us with the stats.  That would be cool. 

On the other hand... lets play a game.  On another board, Share Haiku, I have posted a kigo.  Lets each write five poems to it for over the next ten days.  And then, add another kigo, and do the same again.  Lets see how creative we can be with our phrases while we all use the same kigo!  Another challenging, but fun way to study writing and haiku.  The more folks involved, the more interesting this will become!  :)

Please join us there.

Don

ps... ok cat, we're on.  It's time to play! and learn.

[cat]

What fun!

Thanks, Don.

cat

[AlanSummers]

Hi Alan,

While I really enjoyed your post it is off topic in a way.  The concept I'm bringing out here (not my idea, actually ... more of relaying what I have read) is for example:

what if the haiku started out,

the moon

SNIP

Don

If you mean if 1000 people were coerced into a room and wrote one haiku each, and the first line could only be : the moon  I guess it depends on the people.

Are they creative writers?  Have they ever done haiku before? Are they seasoned writers in haiku? 

I think the math would be slightly different, but every haiku would be technically autumn unless they wrote a conflicting kigo or season word, but then that might not make it a haiku. ;-)

Would "the moon's" be allowed? ;-)

Alan

[Don Baird]

Well Alan, I wasn't talking about coercion.  LOL  I was referencing a "slightly" lighter side of things, actually!  LOL  (just kidding with ya)

I always appreciate your wit.

Don

[chibi575]

Don,

The fact is that if you gave the word "moon" even in a Japanese haiku circle lead by a haijin sensei.  Very few poems would be identical.  If we had a "formula" approach as I think you're implying might be associated with using a saijiki, I think even with the 5-7-5 constraint of the Japanese, I still feel few poems will be the same.  I think this is demonstrated even in English in the Shiki Kukai.

Haiku... takes a licking and keeps on ticking (ref. Timex commercial)  ;D

Time'll tell, as you've said in other posts.

[Don Baird]

Thanks chibi, for your thoughts.  Yes, I still think the math of "limited" language to create new poems in such a small venue is there.  But, what is more frightening, really, is the thought that writing from the wrong intention, will create an uninspired poem.  So, while we ponder this thought/study there are side aspects such as inspiration and "us forcing a haiku" versus the "haiku coming to us ... revealing itself to us. 

The experiement (once we hit ten thousand versions, will prove itself in terms of how many haiku can be written with one line already taken up with fixed kigo.  But, there are so many other aspects that are going to come up which will reveal to us that at least much of the haiku must come from personal experience and of witnessing an event - written in the now or from memory.

Interesting stuff.  I cherish haiku and it's true process.  It is an interesting study however, to search for its limitations, if any.

Thanks again chibi,

Don

[AlanSummers]

Is the clock five to midnight on haiku?

Just a catalyst statement, and reminescent of the Cold War. ;-)

Alan

[Don Baird]

Hi Alan,

Interesting thought!  Great seeing ya!

8)

[beagset]

Hi Don,
    hadn't written a moon poem in a long time. then one day, the beagles took me for a walk, and a day moon was out that morning. A crow happened to be there. The juxtaposition made a good ku. That's how I happen to write these haiku--am sure I'm not special in this method. Simple. The world arranged itself for me and I found it suitable and came back to the house to scribble it in my journal.
    At another workshop, a poet said that poems about day moons can't be done anymore at least to his satisfaction as an editor. Well, so much for his theory.  The poem appeared in a notable journal despite his objection.
   Your wonderful challenge of writing on the moon will likely produce close calls but no exact copies--and many gems--because that's what haijins do with their spare time. Personally, I only entertain the moon that I find rising over pine boughs, or setting in the bay of the Atlantic at the bottom of my street. I've got the patent on my unique arrangement of its light and influence on me.
   By the way, I wrote a moon haiku also about mooning. It appeared back some long time ago in Modern Haiku when Robert Spiess, god rest his soul, was the editor. It was back in that other century before the dawn of the I-Pod, Facebook, and the Twitter account. I'm going too toot my own horn because nobody else will, and you all might as well get a chuckle--especially if you forgot I also put it on another thread here. forgetting is a wonderful thing my friends.

dropping their pants,
the young campers moon
the moonlight cruise


paul cordeiro



   




   


     

[Don Baird]

Hi Paul,

I fully agree with you.  I felt it was a great challenge to folks to post this concept and discuss it.  As we all can see, there will be quite a few years left to go by before we get into duplication of efforts ... though, it happens occasionally today.

Your thoughts are appreciated and I agree with them fully.

Take care and thanks for joining in.

Don

my cat
dressed for Halloween
a blue moon

hahahaaha!!!!

[Lorin]

Paul,

:D I knew it was you as soon as I read "the beagles took me for a walk".

It's so lovely to hear your straightforward, down to earth, honest and unique voice here.

. . .all the neighbourhood Staffies (Staffordshire Terriers) still seek me out, even if no-one else loves me  . . . . .maybe I should get one of my own   8)

...and:

day moon
the dish rag
wearing thin

- Acorn #22, Fall 2009, + red moon anthology, where the wind turns, 2010

Yes, it can be read metaphorically, as I'm sure Carolyn Hall ( a great editor, btw) is aware.

- Lorin