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The Seashell Game - Round 2

Started by David Lanoue, January 24, 2011, 03:33:39 PM

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Lorin


Gabi Greve

.
I long for the day when haiku can be discussed
without reference to things Japanese.
Peter


I guess that will be the day you give the poems a new name.  ;D

sushi will always be Japanese food to start with,
but how about the California roll ?

Gabi

Peter Yovu

how about the California roll?

Why Gabi, that's sweet, but I am a married man.

eluckring

#63
 Hey now, watch it with the California cracks.... :o
I eat California Haiku ;)...and for that matter, so does Fay!

Mark Harris

having lived in CA for many years, I can tell you that californian sushi might be even more delicious than japanese sushi, roll or no roll :)

AlanSummers

The California Roll is fun, but for travelling across country I'd have to have quite a variety of sashimi and sushi I'm afraid. ;-)


Hi Lorin (twice) ;-)

QuoteHi Alan,
I'm not sure that the term kigo can be used "in a generic manner". If we use kigo to mean both kigo (Japanese, by definition) and the developing references to seasons and nature in EL haiku, we rather obscure the very real differences.

I meant by kigo in its generic sense that I wasn't breaking it down into hon'i etc... Just saying kigo.  I'm keeping my With Words hat on, and making it accessible without dumbing it down.

I'm not even sure the Western experts in kigo can break it down to its component parts, and perhaps only a handful of Japanese experts can write about it, but probably have it in their blood of course. ;-)

QuoteI don't believe that an authentic EL 'kigo culture' can be "created", certainly not by us and not by anyone in the near future. If it is to be, it will develop, through the literature, over many generations.

I believe I covered that, and said the Indian Sub-Continent is more likely than us because of their much longer cultural background to pull from.

Quote

- Lorin

- Lorin

Is this like New York, New York, it's so fine they named it twice? <grin>

Alan

Lorin

Quote from: Alan Summers on February 02, 2011, 11:18:16 PM

Quote

- Lorin

- Lorin

Is this like New York, New York, it's so fine they named it twice? <grin>

Alan

...just me & my shadow  :)

Lorin

Quote from: John Carley on February 02, 2011, 12:26:54 PM

QuoteThe whole issue is a caution against cultural insularity - Lorin

Yeah, or cultural misappropriation. The risk of parody here is pressing; I'm not sure how anyone who is not fluent in Bogush can claim intimate familiarity with Bogushetti iconography. Put another way: why is Borat funny?

But treading on eggshells aside, I'm not sure how hon'i squares with fuga no makoto.

Best wishes, John



Yep, both cultural insularity and cultural misappropriation.

There seem to be so many takes on what fuga no makoto means, though. as I look around the web. It seems to be made to fit with hon'i by some, and seems to contradict it in the view of others. Very slippery! My head spins.

- Lorin

Gabi Greve

#68
Pondering over the problems raised here I think we have this :

the author includes a kigo / an allusion

... now there are some possible reactions on the side of the reader

the reader knows the kigo / the allusion

the reader does not know the kigo / the allusion

the reader has a different kigo / allusion in mind


Since the reader is usually alone and has no further feedback he is left with his own knowledge of things.
In the case of haiku, he might check a kigo list, saijiki, database, haiku book ...

If you read "firefly" only as an animal, you get that much out of the Japanese haiku.
If you read "firefly" in the allusion to the  Genji/Heike, you get so much more out of the Japanese haiku.


If the poet wants to make sure the reader "gets" his kigo/allusion, he must provide a footnote with his haiku.
(I call this "haiku in context" and urge poets in international, cross-cultural settings to add some information for their haiku, to spare the reader the task of googeling.)


And as an addition to this, I added up all the hibernating animals getting in and out of holes in Japanese kigo  :)

http://worldkigo2005.blogspot.com/2011/02/hole-ana-and-hibernating-animals.html

Gabi

Lorin

Quote from: Mark Harris on January 26, 2011, 02:55:00 AM
One of these poems is translated and one not. Despite David's efforts, I worry my ignorance of Spanish might handicap Senegal in this match-up, and that makes comparison difficult for me.

Senegal's is almost motionless, a meditation and foretelling. Has a loved one died? The implication is there, I think, for the reasons Lorin gave.


Someone will be coming on here, when the registration process is finished, with an interesting and important detail which might answer your question, here, Mark.  8)

- Lorin

Mark Harris

What? Who? I wait with bated breath...

Lorin

... t'wouldn't be fair if I told, would it?  :-X

- Lorin

Mark Harris


Lorin

Quote from: Mark Harris on February 04, 2011, 01:55:49 AM

Tantalus?


Not sure if there are any Greeks in his family tree or not, Mark.  :) Ya never know, though.

- Lorin

saore

En el candil cad├íveres  
de zancudos. Alguien solloza
en la habitaci├│n.

"candil" is an "oil lamp" and they are still used, for some reason, at wakes all over Latin America.  My first language is Spanish.  

Sergio

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