The Truth in Haiku - How necessary is it?

[Don Baird]

To what extent do you literally change, manipulate the haiku?  Do you add things that aren't there:  do you delete things that are?  How true to the scene/image do you write?  And, how much will you change the haiku to get it published?

I'm interested in your thoughts about haiku today and whether you see it is an art of fantasy, of truth, or of both.

Looking forward to your thoughts.

Don

[Lorin]

Hi Don,

My first thought....

I used to teach ESL as well as English, and many of my students for ESL were Vietnamese and Cambodian. There was a reading period, once a week, with tapes of the books to listen to as well as the books/texts. Some of the students thought that they were wasting their time. When I enquired, they said they didn't think that they should be reading lies when they could be studying for history, maths or biology.

Lies?! Literature? It didn't take me too long to work out that what they basically meant was fiction, and that they equated fiction and lies.

I carefully pointed out the differences between 'fact' and 'truth', 'fiction' and 'lies'. The 'facts' can lie, as you'll know by various interpretations of statistics, just as one example. History is all too often taught as fact, when it is often incomplete and only from one viewpoint. Yet the greatest literature, including poetry, hopes to convey a truth/ truths. A truth may very well better be conveyed by fiction. I did give examples, and asked them to be the judges. (whew, they understood me, and no more problems!)

It is a truth, surely, that we aim for in our writing, not facts, whether it happens straight away in our selection of what to write about (& even in 'shasei' haiku, we select from what's around us, do not include all of the facts) or whether we add or delete, change, hone & polish until we feel that the poem conveys the truth of what we experienced as best as we can make it. Basho revised, so did Shakespeare...they're good enough role models for me.

- Lorin

[AlanSummers]

I also use aspects of what Lorin has said as an argument to compose haiku that has direct observation only.

So much fiction or spin is weaved into non-fiction tracts, that combined with fiction literature, we have such a large body of spin or fiction, that haiku is worth considering for using actual incidents experienced by the author.

Of course, great literature can be more truthful than history, you only need to read the history shown to students in each country.  But of course Shakespeare wasn't above spinning facts for the Tudors hence we get a skewed, and highly influential skewed viewpoint of a great king in Richard III.

But Shakespeare's work, often adapting earlier works, has messages that are still highly relevant for today's society.  It never dates, while history versions do (pun half intended).

The Second World War is a good example.  In the last couple of years we are being shown footage that is changing how we perceive that war all over again. 

Take for instance the Croatian War haiku, most of which I believe to be authentic:
http://www.thehaikufoundation.org/2010/11/18/13th-sailing-whats-your-edge/comment-page-6/#comment-4496

I wish haiku had been known to the public during WWII.

Alan

[Gael Bage]

Yes truth is important, it includes being true to self,  and true to one's art and even growing in truth, some things I thought true as a teenager, I see in a different light now, where things seemed more black and white before now there are many subtle shades of grey. I do see being true to the moment as important, somehow changing or embroidering, for me personally feels like cheating.

[AlanSummers]

Hi Gael,

I echo what you say, but despite the fact I personally prefer writing haiku that contain the actual experience I'll have to respectfully agree to disagree with you on your statement:

"I do see being true to the moment as important, somehow changing or embroidering, for me personally feels like cheating."

Any artform, not just literature, has to encompass some change however small, or slight.  Embroidering is a different matter, and I'd love to hear what you personally mean by that.

Alan

[Don Baird]

Lies?! Literature? It didn't take me too long to work out that what they basically meant was fiction, and that they equated fiction and lies.   - Lorin

Hi Lorin ...

Lies versus fiction.  That is a highly interesting topic in and of itself.  Of course, fiction is a pulp full of lies but then again, it seems so many authors base their fiction stories on real events too, which makes the subject all the more interesting.

Do you think there is room for fiction in haiku?  Or, do you think that haiku should remain, if it ever has been, a short poem of truth (as the reader see it)?

Thanks so much for your comment and thoughts.

Don

[AlanSummers]

I'm looking forward to Lorin's reply to Don's question, but in the meantime, i think we have to dispel an internal and external "urban myth" that haiku is about a moment in time truly recorded.

if you read Contemporary Japanese haiku in good translation, as well as Modern and Classic Japanese haiku in good translations, you will find that rarely is there a moment in time truly recorded.  That's not the point of haiku, or of hokku (where haiku derived from) and should never be limited to this inaccurate viewpoint.

I have made a specific choice, as an individual, to write haiku about incidents in or around my life.  The reasons are both personal and professional.

Alan

[Don Baird]

I also use aspects of what Lorin has said as an argument to compose haiku that has direct observation only.

So much fiction or spin is weaved into non-fiction tracts, that combined with fiction literature, we have such a large body of spin or fiction, that haiku is worth considering for using actual incidents experienced by the author ... you only need to read the history shown to students in each country.  ~ Alan

I remember studying history again at the University level and how much of it was different from the ol' high school and jr. high days.  One professor made a similar statement as you have here inferring that each country on the globe has a different perspective on history while adamantly claiming it's truth.  So many stories:  so little truth.  Yet, they all believe in their stories.  It's amazing.

However, do you think haiku for each of us as individuals should relate to truth or actually be written in truth?  Do you think we should embellish the "moment" or find unique and profound ways to compose them that makes them not only interesting poems, but ones that are also true.  It seems, that would be the highest of all skill?

Thanks a ton for coming by.  It's great hearing your thoughts.

Don

[Don Baird]

Hi Gael,

I have a tendancy to agree with you here on a personal level.  I like haiku to reflect in a "haiku poetic way" the truth.  I wonder though, if all poets have the same view of truth?  Or, because we are all so different, that the truth of the moment is held slightly different by different hands?

Very interesting thoughts.

thanks,

Don

[AlanSummers]

What would be fascinating is a discussion involving parties who stick to actual events and manage to create art from reportage, and those who create art direct from events, and not keeping to the actual event itself.

Alan

[Don Baird]

"if you read Contemporary Japanese haiku in good translation, as well as Modern and Classic Japanese haiku in good translations, you will find that rarely is there a moment in time truly recorded.  That's not the point of haiku, or of hokku (where haiku derived from) and should never be limited to this inaccurate viewpoint."  ~ Alan

I wonder if Shiki was looking for and relaying truth?  It seems so to me.  His illness alone, you would think, would cause him to write "fantasy haiku" that are not even close to reality.  But, in reading his work and studying his journals, it seems, at least on the surface, that writing the truth or being true to the moment, was very important to him.  Of course, I understand that his poetry might not have reached the intricate woven beauty of Basho;  never the less, he is a celebrated poet (one of the "big four") world wide.

I could be wrong, but do you think that Shiki was writing to truth of what he saw?  Or, do you think he manipulated the scenes quite heavily?  And do you believe a fictional haiku can lead the reader to a truth ... a sort of cosmic truth, if there is such a thing?

Thanks so much very sharing your thoughts.

Don

[Don Baird]

What would be fascinating is a discussion involving parties who stick to actual events and manage to create art from reportage, and those who create art direct from events, and not keeping to the actual event itself.Alan

There has been a thought that a haijin is a reporter, of sorts.  That staying true to the moment is extremely important.  There is also that parallel continuum of poets who create their poetry from events while not keeping to the truth of the event itself.  (reiterating your thoughts, Alan)

This is a very striking, poignant seed for discussion, Alan.  You have a keen eye!

I wonder, Alan, if you have two haiku that contrast as a result of this very technique?  Can you post two haiku - one sticking to the truth of "the moment" and one that has been adjusted "from the moment" to create its own end game?

Interesting stuff.

Don

[AlanSummers]

I think most poetry writers manipulate events and experiences just as other artists do, so I am sure Shiki did the same.  He had a view out of his bedroom window for years as he died from spinal tuberculosis. 

His services to haiku are very important, and often we just get stuck in his first level of shasei and don't move on. 

It's difficult to know what cosmic truths come out as readers as well as commentators will also manipulate the written word from others.  Take Basho's summer grasses for instance.  It is not an anti-war, or pro-war, or eco-statement hokku.  It simply follows the tradition of composing verses about important sites be they temples, battlefields, or a place previously visited by a famous poet etc...

Alan

[AlanSummers]

I'm a fan of John Barlow's work, and I know for a fact that he creates art while maintaining the actual event.

There are known work from haiku poets who use an event but veer from its actual facts and timelines etc...

I'd rather leave it up to the poets who do the latter to post here.

This is mostly because there is a huge misconception in the West about how and why haiku is written.  Shiki did us all a service, but we haven't read beyond shasei.

For examples of John's work check out the With Words competition, here are two weblinks:
http://area17.blogspot.com/2010/12/winning-haiku-including-highly.html

And previous years, plus judge's commentary:
http://www.withwords.org.uk/results.html

Alan

[Don Baird]

Thanks for sharing the links, Alan.  Much appreciated.  Darn, now I have to read though!!!   ::)

:)