haiku vs. haiku

[lulu]

If the following, from August 15th's per diem is considered a haiku, with respect, would someone, please explain why.

blue apple
it gives birth
to a mirror

- Scott Metz

[chibi575]

modern haiku can be any three line poem, or for that fact, any written phrase or set of phrases declared by the author to be a haiku... saddly, for some, this is mostly the case... yet this is very freeing and should be encouraged to become its own genre (as the Japanese have named modern haiku, gendai haiku).

If you want to know historically what haiku is, start with exploring Shiki, the Japanese poet that coined the word from a combination/contraction of the Japanese written in romaji, "haikai no ku" to "haiku" this done in the mid to late 1800s.  As far as I'm concerned, if it ain't Japanese it ain't haiku.  I'm calling the poems I write in English based upon Shiki's definition of haiku, "chibiku" literally "short verse" in Japanese.  Have fun with your explorations.  ;D

ciao...

[AlanSummers]

Interestingly enough I read this out to my wife without stating it was a poem and she immediately knew it was a haiku and very interesting.

It's great to have something fresh and different.

I saw this earlier and loved it as well.

Alan

If the following, from August 15th's per diem is considered a haiku, with respect, would someone, please explain why.

blue apple
it gives birth
to a mirror

- Scott Metz

[Jack Galmitz]

I think it might be wise to begin to answer your question by questioning yourself as to what a haiku is, for your question really begs a question.
Hamlet said, referencing classical notions of theater "to hold as 'twere the
mirror up to nature."
But, time moves on doesn't it?  Read Abrams The Mirror and the Lamp and you will learn that by the time of the Romantics literature was no longer judged by classical standards but by new ones: how well the author shone the lamp of his/her inner being on the world and thus illumined it.
So, how about asking yourself what "birthing" is and what a "mirror" does, particularly in view of modern theories of language and art and you will begin to formulate an answer for yourself.
And just as a side note, Shiki was born in the 19th C. and wrote in the Meiji period, which was the end of the century to the beginning of the 20th C.

[Jack Galmitz]

Or, if we look at another gentre-painting- we can see the disruption from classical representation to say cubism.  Here what was previously "represented" as "real" was broken up, analyzed, and re-assembled to depict objects from various viewpoints, thus representing the subject in a greater context than had previously been tried.

[sandra]

Hi Lulu,

Good question. I'm intrigued that none of the responses so far have attempted to address your question directly.

Hmmm ...

[John McManus]

Hi Lulu, I guess the best way to answer your question would be if Scott himself posted a response, but in the mean time I'll try to take a stab at it.

To me this is a haiku because firstly we are presented with a peice of nature, albeit a strange peice of nature. I can't recall seeing any blue apples in my short life, but I don't doubt they do exist somewhere.
So since haiku are often described as nature poems we are off to a good start, yes?

The second line is an action, which again is pretty typical for a haiku. Of course we are forced back to the first line, and are left wondering for a second how the hell a blue apple could give birth. But as Jack states what is birth? Is it not animation, an adding of something to a pre-exisiting world?

I think that is what happens in the last line. The Mirror is animated and gains life by the reflection of the blue apple inside it.

I hope at least a part of this makes sense, and helps in some way.

warmest,
John

   

[Gabi Greve]

If the following, from August 15th's per diem is considered a haiku, with respect,
would someone, please explain why.

blue apple
it gives birth
to a mirror

- Scott Metz

In this special case, maybe the author can answer this?
Or the editor who choose the poem for "per diem" ?


Haiku in languages other than Japanese has taken many twists and turns, as you will find when reading more.
Traditional Japanese haiku are well defined by their form.

Basic Conditions of Japanese Language Haiku
Inahata Teiko

http://www.kyoshi.or.jp/inv-haiku/basic.htm

But that will not help much in understanding and accepting why some short poems in other languages use the qualifier "haiku".

Try to find a "definition" of English Language Haiku online, and you will be quite surprized, I guess.

Gabi
http://worldkigodatabase.blogspot.com/

.

[Jack Galmitz]

Sandra, the reason I did not take on the subject directly, to be quite frank is it bores me and has been discussed ad nauseum on many threads at THF.  Also, I was not quite convinced of the naivite of the questioner; it was more of a statement than a question and I don't really care for baiting.  Hence, my indirect answer was a way to avoid my annoyance, to not sharply rebuke overly-simplified assaults on modernist haiku that have raised the form to the equivalent of modern poetry in general and to put the work of answering the question back on the questioner; perhaps some years of reading and research and understanding of language theory and modern art might qualify detractors to answer for themselves.
I'm afraid your little hmm is not an answer; it does not mean that the question can't be answered, or that indirect answers are avoiding what can't be accomplished, as you hint.
The question is in my opinion impertinent; and frankly, if you want an answer, look at the author's posting today re: Basho's old pond and you will see he is answering the question by not taking it up with those who with little knowledge jump to over-simplified conclusions.

[AlanSummers]

I agree with Jack. Sandra, do you see this as a haiku or not, and Lulu, why is it 'not' a haiku to you.

Also many Japanese haiku write veer from the constrictions of so called form. Gosh at one time you could be imprisoned and even tortured for veering away from the form. Is that what some are supporting albeit indirectly?

It's haiku to me and I think it's fantastic and Basho and Santoka etc... proved you have to break the mould sometimes to keep the art pure.

Alan

[AndrewHide]

Has Scott Metz given an account of what he originally witnessed to provoke this possible haiku?

The reason why I ask this is because the opening question leads us to consider the poem on a technical level instead of looking at the face value.

I have been in the fruit trade all my life and have never come across anything close to being a blue apple, so when I read 'blue apple', I didn't associate it as fruit.

My conclusion on the poem was that of an apple touch pad being turned off, which enabled it to be used as a mirror. The same object becoming a juxtaposion of itself. Whether this would be a haiku is another question.


Andrew

[Gabi Greve]

This will not anwer the question, but is another attempt to get to the poetry called haiku

Characteristics of English Haiku Poll Results
http://hailhaiku.wordpress.com/2011/07/26/characteristics-of-english-haiku-poll-results/


btw

blue apple, in Japanese, would be ao-ringo ... which basically is the word used for
green apple.

googeling with blue appel gives some interesting results too
http://www.google.co.jp/search?tbm=isch&hl=ja&source=hp&biw=839&bih=816&q=%22blue+apple%22&gbv=2&oq=%22blue+apple%22&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&gs_sm=e&gs_upl=938l3125l0l3282l12l12l0l11l0l0l125l125l0.1l1l0

and "Blue apples" is even better
http://www.google.co.jp/search?hl=ja&biw=839&bih=816&gbv=2&tbm=isch&sa=1&q=%22blue+apples%22&btnG=%E6%A4%9C%E7%B4%A2&oq=%22blue+apples%22&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&gs_sm=s&gs_upl=50844l50844l0l51703l1l1l0l0l0l0l140l140l0.1l1l0


Gabi

[sandra]

Thanks for the replies Jack, Alan and John.

I took the question at face value and in good faith and didn't see any baiting going on so was sorry that the replies that Lulu was receiving weren't that illuminating as I was going to be interested to read them myself.

The "hmm", Jack, was merely intended as a thoughtful gap filler, waiting for one of the many erudite posters to come along and help Lulu (and me) out. I wasn't hinting at anything.

My knowledge of modernist haiku, as you term them, is almost nil, but I am trying hard to learn and THF threads are one of the few places where I might do that, even if I do often find the discussion beyond me, but that's my fault, not the posters.

So, due to my general dullness and ignorance, it wasn't until I read John's thoughts that your text began to make sense.

I will go and have a look at the other thread, as you suggest and will try to keep my naivete to myself in future. (I daresay one of the emoticons would work well here but I hate them.)

I do hope Scott will drop in and share his viewpoint as the author.

[Jack Galmitz]

One last remark.
I don't know where you got the idea, Andrew, that haiku was based on observation, but it is not.
Basho's famous old pond poem, which created a brand new approach to haiku was based on imagination, not observation.
(see Scott Metz's remarks on the thread for "the pain of" something-sorry I can't recall the Japanese terms); it is loaded with commentary by famous Japanese critics).

[AlanSummers]

Hi Jack,

I can't find the link you are alluding to, but it's within THF itself?  I'll try to hunt it down if it's here.

In the meantime, it may be of interest to read this review:
http://www.modernhaiku.org/bookreviews/Metz2009.html

all my best,

Alan

One last remark.
I don't know where you got the idea, Andrew, that haiku was based on observation, but it is not.
Basho's famous old pond poem, which created a brand new approach to haiku was based on imagination, not observation.
(see Scott Metz's remarks on the thread for "the pain of" something-sorry I can't recall the Japanese terms); it is loaded with commentary by famous Japanese critics).