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sine qua non

Started by Dmitri, November 10, 2021, 09:33:41 PM

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Billy Mills

Quote from: Lorraine Pester on November 19, 2021, 06:05:52 PM

so it's something that i, not a translator, could not appreciate.

so. . .how bout one in good old english that meets that desire of musicality?

lorraine

Hi Lorraine

Take this one by Alan S above:

thunder
I slide a kigo
into the gun

there are some really nice sound patterns here: the repeated 'u' sound in 'thunder/gun', the same for 'I' in 'I/slide' really lift it to another level.

Billy Mills

Quote from: AlanSummers on November 19, 2021, 07:21:03 PM
Hi Billy,
Ah Shearsman, so possible we know certain poets in common re London, Bradford on Avon, City of Bath etc...

You said, about the quoted poems:
"In their own way, I think they are juxtaposing, but they may not be haiku. The first sets virus and bird together to produce an image; in the second the idea of a peter pandemic is a kind of metaphor, as pandemics of people don't literally exist.

For me they both lack one basic aspect of any poem, which is to do with the sounds they make. There's no real music, for me t least."


Both are about viruses, one is Avian Flu, and the other one is Covid-19 and family. The second one might refer to the infamous British Health Minister (for various reasons) who was called Peter Pandemic:
https://www.express.co.uk/showbiz/tv-radio/1282441/Charlie-Brooker-Antiviral-Wipe-Matt-Hancock-Peter-Pandemic-joke-BBC-video

Haiku is a peculiar bird, to continue with the bird theme, and is a genre but has form (pun intended) and an invisible form more potent than its perceived external form. Also, is haiku poetry, or prose, or in-between, or its own thing entirely? I'm talking about non-Japanese haikai of course, which often has its own musical shape.

Both haiku would fit easily into other types of poetry, to my mind, and even provide lyrical support to a song or two. But haiku are or derived from starting stanzas, so they are deliberate in their incompleteness, where the rest used to be within the following verse and despite losing linear narrative, would continue as ghost rhythm throughout the rest of the renga or renku poem.

Alan



Quote from: Billy Mills on November 19, 2021, 01:55:10 PM
Quote from: Dmitri on November 19, 2021, 01:47:27 PM
Billy Mills says: For me, one thing that all good haiku do is to produce an analogy by means of juxtaposition, two or more (usually two) disparate things brought together that open the readers mind in some way.

So, for you, would you say the following two examples, since they do not provide a juxtaposition of two disparate things, are not haiku? And please note, I am not disputing the merit of each piece. Buit just trying to be clear, and further the conversation.



from her chair by the window she says the virus is a bird
                                     Johnannes Bjerg

exit wendy from the peter pandemic
                        Lorin Ford

In their own way, I think they are juxtaposing, but they may not be haiku. The first sets virus and bird together to produce an image; in the second the idea of a peter pandemic is a kind of metaphor, as pandemics of people don't literally exist.

For me they both lack one basic aspect of any poem, which is to do with the sounds they make. There's no real music, for me t least.

I'm afraid I lazily use 'haiku' for both haiku proper and for hokku, and for Japanese and non-Japanese poems in the form. And I do think of them as poetry, and of poetry as having to do both with sense and sound.

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