Author Topic: zuihitsu, organic form poetry and open form poetry  (Read 687 times)

Lorraine Pester

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zuihitsu, organic form poetry and open form poetry
« on: May 29, 2021, 06:33:30 PM »


okay.

the “beyond the environment” essay writing class i’m taking through emergence magazine is going to feature poetry this coming week.

in preparation for the class, materials that center around organic form poetry have been read.

it strikes me that the essence of the process of writing organic form poetry is very similar to zuihitsu and the outcome is similar.

then there’s open form poetry, that seems to result in similarities.

are my observations valid?

and. . .just as free verse can be incorporated into zuihitsu, am i correct in assuming that deliberately incorporating organic form elements would significantly enhance the fragmentary style of zuihitsu?

conversation please

lorraine
My entire soul is a cry, and all my work is a commentary on that cry.   Nikos Kazantzakis

light pilgrim

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Re: zuihitsu, organic form poetry and open form poetry
« Reply #1 on: June 05, 2021, 09:06:44 AM »
Hi Lorraine,

A very interesting question and observation in your post.

Quote
the “beyond the environment” essay writing class i’m taking through emergence magazine is going to feature poetry this coming week. 

I don't know what modules are used in this particular class and so, my response is mainly to do with a basic understanding of "organic form poetry".


Quote
in preparation for the class, materials that center around organic form poetry have been read.

it strikes me that the essence of the process of writing organic form poetry is very similar to zuihitsu and the outcome is similar.

You make a good point about zuihitsu here and my answer would be a big yes, in as much as "organic form poetry" is seen as something that is "shaped" not "structured" by form (Coleridge) and that it is "exploratory" (Levertov). But most of all, I would say that what is appealing about such unstructured and exploratory form is what Hopkins calls "instress" (actual experience) and "inscape" (uniqueness, not repeated).

So, in as far as zuihitsu is exploratory, not structured but shaped and evolving and it has an unique motif , perspective and use of language, it is similar to "organic form poetry."

As a reader, I would say, in the end, what is it about one's poem that offers something to make the reader sit up and take note and also  to be inspired to write in a similar vein? These questions are essential for all writing indeed. I suppose what I am saying is it is not just the form that we use - zuihitsu, "organic" open poetry, tanka, haiku, etc, - but How, we use it that ultimately counts.

So yes, your observations are valid and thought-provoking too.

Enjoyed this too!




flowerfox

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Re: zuihitsu, organic form poetry and open form poetry
« Reply #2 on: June 05, 2021, 11:43:41 AM »
Apart from, Lorraine and Chen-Ou's zuihitzu poetry, I have found nothing else of this calibre. I have searched but nothing has come up to match these.
All I find is sporadic sentences that make no sense.

The words, instress and inscape is interesting know about. Something to consider when I, eventually, get to grips with this zuihitzu and produce an experimental piece.

A link to swatting up on this would be welcome.

Thankyou in advance.

Lorraine Pester

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Re: zuihitsu, organic form poetry and open form poetry
« Reply #3 on: June 05, 2021, 12:14:10 PM »
Hi Lorraine,

A very interesting question and observation in your post.

Quote
the “beyond the environment” essay writing class i’m taking through emergence magazine is going to feature poetry this coming week. 

I don't know what modules are used in this particular class and so, my response is mainly to do with a basic understanding of "organic form poetry".


Quote
in preparation for the class, materials that center around organic form poetry have been read.

it strikes me that the essence of the process of writing organic form poetry is very similar to zuihitsu and the outcome is similar.

You make a good point about zuihitsu here and my answer would be a big yes, in as much as "organic form poetry" is seen as something that is "shaped" not "structured" by form (Coleridge) and that it is "exploratory" (Levertov). But most of all, I would say that what is appealing about such unstructured and exploratory form is what Hopkins calls "instress" (actual experience) and "inscape" (uniqueness, not repeated).

So, in as far as zuihitsu is exploratory, not structured but shaped and evolving and it has an unique motif , perspective and use of language, it is similar to "organic form poetry."

As a reader, I would say, in the end, what is it about one's poem that offers something to make the reader sit up and take note and also  to be inspired to write in a similar vein? These questions are essential for all writing indeed. I suppose what I am saying is it is not just the form that we use - zuihitsu, "organic" open poetry, tanka, haiku, etc, - but How, we use it that ultimately counts.

So yes, your observations are valid and thought-provoking too.

Enjoyed this too!

hi pilgrim,

i swear you and i have been reading similar information. coleridge. levertov. gerald manley hopkins.

for carol::no link, but google poetry foundation essay on poetic theory “some notes on organic form “ by denise levertov.

back to you, pilgrim:

the above mentioned essay by levertov was only briefly mentioned by the person who was running the class. however, i found in it the basis that made best sense for addressing the structure of organic poetry which you mention.

not sure what others got out of a fairly choppy presentation by a Dine poet (native american poet who primarily uses native american language processing to write their poetry) but i just followed the google breadcrumbs to yet another essay.

for carol:::again, google poetry foundation essay on poetic theory “projective verse” by charles olson

back to you, pilgrim:::

projective verse :::appears to me that the main element in utilizing it has to do with the actual line length and structure of a poem being dictated by the length of the poet’s breath as he writes the line as he would speak it (so the poet’s speech patterns become the shaping factor of each line of each poem?) and also the way it sounds to the ear when read aloud. so that rhyme of all sorts. rhythm. the way syllables act. will all be of primary importance to this way of writing. so that the artificial forms created to use these elements (i think of meter,accent, used in writing sonnets for example) are to be eschewed.

william carlos williams (of the red wheelbarrow fame) and the Beats are mentioned in articles about projective verse.

comments please? i too am enjoying this conversation.

lorraine
My entire soul is a cry, and all my work is a commentary on that cry.   Nikos Kazantzakis

Lorraine Pester

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Re: zuihitsu, organic form poetry and open form poetry
« Reply #4 on: June 05, 2021, 12:20:11 PM »
Apart from, Lorraine and Chen-Ou's zuihitzu poetry, I have found nothing else of this calibre. I have searched but nothing has come up to match these.
All I find is sporadic sentences that make no sense.

The words, instress and inscape is interesting know about. Something to consider when I, eventually, get to grips with this zuihitzu and produce an experimental piece.

A link to swatting up on this would be welcome.

Thankyou in advance.

carol,

i convert certain articles i read to pdf and lose the link in doing so.

however,in my response to pilgrim, i left you the google information for denise levertov’s excellent essay on organic poetry form. the instress and inkscape pilgrim mentioned to me is found in that essay.

would you like for me to send you info on other articles i’ve read on the topic?

lorraine
My entire soul is a cry, and all my work is a commentary on that cry.   Nikos Kazantzakis

Lorraine Pester

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Re: zuihitsu, organic form poetry and open form poetry
« Reply #5 on: June 05, 2021, 12:22:20 PM »


pilgrim,

your last paragraph was most thought provoking. be back to you on that.

thank you

lorraine
My entire soul is a cry, and all my work is a commentary on that cry.   Nikos Kazantzakis

light pilgrim

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Re: zuihitsu, organic form poetry and open form poetry
« Reply #6 on: June 05, 2021, 12:27:07 PM »
Hi flowerfox,

You're right. There aren't many current poets who write Zuihitsu.
Apart from, Lorraine and Chen-Ou's zuihitzu poetry, I have found nothing else of this calibre. I have searched but nothing has come up to match these.

Which source is this? "sporadic sentences" might well be the poet's way of "organic" writing, which is characteristic of Zuihitsu.
Quote
All I find is sporadic sentences that make no sense.

We have mentioned the Pillow Book in the discussion thread about Zuihitsu and another Japanese example is As I Crossed a Bridge of Dreams: Recollections of a Woman in Eleventh-century Japan by Lady Sarashina This book has anecdotes, poems, personal ruminations and observances about the countryside and the places she visits on her travels.




Quote
The words, instress and inscape is interesting know about. Something to consider when I, eventually, get to grips with this zuihitzu and produce an experimental piece.

"Instress" and "inscape" are the ideas of Gerald Manley Hopkins (1844- 1889), an English Jesuit priest and poet. A wiki link here for him:
 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerard_Manley_Hopkins
Also: https://www.britannica.com/biography/Gerard-Manley-Hopkins
And: https://hopkinspoetry.com/



Quote
A link to swatting up on this would be welcome.

I hope it is more than "swatting": inspiring and enriching  :)

light pilgrim





Lorraine Pester

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Re: zuihitsu, organic form poetry and open form poetry
« Reply #7 on: June 05, 2021, 01:57:24 PM »
Hi flowerfox,

You're right. There aren't many current poets who write Zuihitsu.
Apart from, Lorraine and Chen-Ou's zuihitzu poetry, I have found nothing else of this calibre. I have searched but nothing has come up to match these.

Which source is this? "sporadic sentences" might well be the poet's way of "organic" writing, which is characteristic of Zuihitsu.
Quote
All I find is sporadic sentences that make no sense.

We have mentioned the Pillow Book in the discussion thread about Zuihitsu and another Japanese example is As I Crossed a Bridge of Dreams: Recollections of a Woman in Eleventh-century Japan by Lady Sarashina This book has anecdotes, poems, personal ruminations and observances about the countryside and the places she visits on her travels.




Quote
The words, instress and inscape is interesting know about. Something to consider when I, eventually, get to grips with this zuihitzu and produce an experimental piece.

"Instress" and "inscape" are the ideas of Gerald Manley Hopkins (1844- 1889), an English Jesuit priest and poet. A wiki link here for him:
 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerard_Manley_Hopkins
Also: https://www.britannica.com/biography/Gerard-Manley-Hopkins
And: https://hopkinspoetry.com/



Quote
A link to swatting up on this would be welcome.

I hope it is more than "swatting": inspiring and enriching  :)

light pilgrim

pilgrim,

hadn’t heard of lady sarashina. thanks!

off to check it out and add it to my wish list.

lorraine
My entire soul is a cry, and all my work is a commentary on that cry.   Nikos Kazantzakis

Lorraine Pester

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Re: zuihitsu, organic form poetry and open form poetry
« Reply #8 on: June 05, 2021, 02:45:52 PM »



i’m back pilgrim. and i figured out what sounded familiar when you said:

“ As a reader, I would say, in the end, what is it about one's poem that offers something to make the reader sit up and take note and also  to be inspired to write in a similar vein? These questions are essential for all writing indeed. I suppose what I am saying is it is not just the form that we use - zuihitsu, "organic" open poetry, tanka, haiku, etc, - but How, we use it that ultimately counts.”

have you been talking to Alan Summers lately?  because this sounds like a mission statement for his new journal (or at least, new to me) MahMight Haiku Journal

lorraine
My entire soul is a cry, and all my work is a commentary on that cry.   Nikos Kazantzakis

light pilgrim

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Re: zuihitsu, organic form poetry and open form poetry
« Reply #9 on: June 06, 2021, 11:07:38 AM »
Hi Lorraine,

This thread seems to have taken off since I last replied to your first post, which is great. :)

Coleridge, Levertov and Hopkins are the basics for "organic form poetry, so I suppose the source is similar.

Quote
i swear you and i have been reading similar information. coleridge. levertov. gerald manley hopkins.


Mind you, I highlighted very bare-to-the-bone basics of organic poetry from my own reading so it is good to know that I have not veered off point in comparison to the essay you read:
Quote
the above mentioned essay by levertov was only briefly mentioned by the person who was running the class. however, i found in it the basis that made best sense for addressing the structure of organic poetry which you mention.

I find this fascinating. I would love to hear a Diné recitation. Perhaps such use of "organic form" poetry will grown exponentially and reach beyond cultural and language:

Quote
not sure what others got out of a fairly choppy presentation by a Dine poet (native american poet who primarily uses native american language processing to write their poetry) but i just followed the google breadcrumbs to yet another essay.

Now here I must admit that I know very little about American Literature, where "Projective verse" and Olson feature prominently.
Quote
projective verse :::appears to me that the main element in utilizing it has to do with the actual line length and structure of a poem being dictated by the length of the poet’s breath as he writes the line as he would speak it (so the poet’s speech patterns become the shaping factor of each line of each poem?) and also the way it sounds to the ear when read aloud. so that rhyme of all sorts. rhythm. the way syllables act. will all be of primary importance to this way of writing. so that the artificial forms created to use these elements (i think of meter,accent, used in writing sonnets for example) are to be eschewed.

However, what you say about Olson's idea of a poet's breath and the length of the line in a poem is interesting and makes me think of the Japanese Uta - gathering - where verses were read and written to what could be called "prompts" of motifs and themes. The latter were often premised on the host of the Uta - his house, garden, perhaps lineage of some prominence. My point being that what Olsen seems to be saying about the auditory and "breath" are quite similar to the way poetry was written and shared in Japan. Olson was influenced by Ezra Pound, whose monumental work, The Cantos was based on musical thematic structure rather than the traditional narrative structure. Pound in turn was influenced by the work of Ernst Fenellosa, a scholar of Japanese art and culture, who lived and taught in Japan. After his death in 1908 Fenellosa's body of notes on Japanese and also Chinese literature was left to Pound which Pound studied at great length with the help of Waley. Fenellosa's work on Chinese literature introduced Pound to Chinese ideograms, which feature in The Cantos. Pound also studied the verse form, the haiku, from Fenellosa's notes. So, I wonder if Olson's idea of "breath poem" is perhaps a nod to the influence of Pound?


I have enjoyed this discussion and will definitely read up more on "Projective Poetry".


light pilgrim


















« Last Edit: June 06, 2021, 11:30:36 AM by light pilgrim »

light pilgrim

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Re: zuihitsu, organic form poetry and open form poetry
« Reply #10 on: June 06, 2021, 11:13:20 AM »
Hi again,

Thank you for returning with this very interesting point.  I have not had any conversations about poetry and poetic forms with Alan recently. Amazed and indeed honored that you saw similarities in our perspectives. Thank you also for alerting me to his new MahMight Haiku Journal. I will definitely check it out.




i’m back pilgrim. and i figured out what sounded familiar when you said:

“ As a reader, I would say, in the end, what is it about one's poem that offers something to make the reader sit up and take note and also  to be inspired to write in a similar vein? These questions are essential for all writing indeed. I suppose what I am saying is it is not just the form that we use - zuihitsu, "organic" open poetry, tanka, haiku, etc, - but How, we use it that ultimately counts.”

have you been talking to Alan Summers lately?  because this sounds like a mission statement for his new journal (or at least, new to me)

lorraine

light pilgrim

flowerfox

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Re: zuihitsu, organic form poetry and open form poetry
« Reply #11 on: June 06, 2021, 12:30:11 PM »
Hi light pilgrim

Thankyou for your reply. The sites I have visited are, Autumn Sky Poetry and read work by Andrea Zawinsky
Poetry Foundation read work by Jenny Xie
also work by Tina Chang 1969

I know I'm a total novice in this subject, and each poet has his/her own way of writing, however, I found their interpretation of zuihitzu nothing like the format presented on this site.

I also came across the pillow book when searching. I'm happy to read this if it will enhance my understanding of this particular way of presenting verse.

Now, into the links you have provided.

Definitely more than 'swatting' :)
This will take some reading and understanding.

Thankyou

Carol
« Last Edit: June 06, 2021, 12:38:15 PM by flowerfox »

Lorraine Pester

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Re: zuihitsu, organic form poetry and open form poetry
« Reply #12 on: June 06, 2021, 02:48:25 PM »
Hi light pilgrim

Thankyou for your reply. The sites I have visited are, Autumn Sky Poetry and read work by Andrea Zawinsky
Poetry Foundation read work by Jenny Xie
also work by Tina Chang 1969

I know I'm a total novice in this subject, and each poet has his/her own way of writing, however, I found their interpretation of zuihitzu nothing like the format presented on this site.

I also came across the pillow book when searching. I'm happy to read this if it will enhance my understanding of this particular way of presenting verse.

Now, into the links you have provided.

Definitely more than 'swatting' :)
This will take some reading and understanding.

Thankyou

Carol

Carol,

About the pillow book: you need to be very careful about the translator if you decide to buy. Translators take a good deal of freedom when they translate it. Do yourself a favor and read my thread where pilgrim and I discuss it before you buy.

The translation I mistakenly bought was barely 25% of the total book. He omitted everything that he deemed boring trivia. Pilgrim and I discussed the different translations. I have yet to buy the full version. The version I have reads like well-written prose.

As Alan says, it’s a mix of genres(zuihitsu that is).  Fragmented. The way I tend to think. Jumping around. You decide what genre a snippet needs to be in. It will tell you. Don’t force it. Kinda like knowing that a haibun is needed rather than a brief haiku because of what you want to say. Alan told me that good writing is good writing.

I know for a fact that Issue 2 of Bloo Journal has a zuihitsu Alan wrote. His words: very different from yours, Lorraine.

Please stop trying to pin it down and just write. My two  cents   

Lorraine

My entire soul is a cry, and all my work is a commentary on that cry.   Nikos Kazantzakis

Lorraine Pester

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Re: zuihitsu, organic form poetry and open form poetry
« Reply #13 on: June 06, 2021, 06:04:48 PM »
Pilgrim and carol,

I’m in the annoying position of having no wifi until Monday late. Very limited cellular data. Plus I’m on my phone. Didn’t want y’all to think that I’m ignoring. Actually, perfect timing to ruminate on what pilgrim said.

Until the morrow
Parting is such sweet sorrow

Lorraine

My entire soul is a cry, and all my work is a commentary on that cry.   Nikos Kazantzakis

flowerfox

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Re: zuihitsu, organic form poetry and open form poetry
« Reply #14 on: June 06, 2021, 11:05:53 PM »
When you come back.

I was going to down load the kindle version, glad I didn't after reading your conversation.

I've seen different ways poets writ this zuihitzu, is there no right way. I like what I saw in the advanced mentoring section, so, I'll go with this.

I would indeed be more than happy for you to send me info.