Deleted: Haiku Physical Book Publishers

[pottygok]

Deleted post. Clearly not a welcome discussion.

[AlanSummers]

Hi Joshua,

For starters, there are always a lot of chapbook contests in the general poetry arena. A well sequenced haiku collection could stand a chance.

re:
THE UNWORN NECKLACE, Snapshot Press, 2007

Although Roberta Beary's para-"verse novel" was published by Snapshot Press, if we can set that aside, as well as set aside that in 2008 it was named a Haiku Society of America Merit Book Award prize-winner...

What shows that a haiku collection can do well outside the haiku arena is that it was selected as a finalist in the Poetry Society of America’s William Carlos Williams Award, and the first book of haiku to receive such recognition.

I remember on, possibly the PSA blog, or Ron Silliman's blog I believe, that a couple or so 'haiku poets' attacked the book, and I did step in and calm things down. We must support each other!

Bill Higginson, the fine gentleman who gave us so much, had this wonderful thing to say, and we need to read it again:

Announcement:
Roberta Beary’s The Unworn Necklace Finalist for William Carlos Williams Award from Poetry Society of America! (22 April 2008 by wordfield)
https://haikaipub.wordpress.com/2008/04/22/announcement-roberta-bearys-the-unworn-necklace-finalist-for-william-carlos-williams-award-from-poetry-society-of-america/

I'm shocked that I was the only haiku poet to LIKE this!

I regularly help, as Call of the Page, with haikai manuscripts, and look to the bigger picture.

Roberta's book? It started off as a softcover edition and continually sold out its reprints. That meant it was a calculated gamble to bring it out as a hardback, which sold out!

The softcover edition is into its 5th print run.

Why all this? Because things changed in the publishing world, and the poetry world (books and events etc...) many many years ago.

Even big publishing houses expect everybody, and I mean everybody, to promote their book and the publishing house with vigour and successful vigour!

I saw Roberta do this in spades, both for her book and the publisher, in fact she did a lot more than that. And she was indefatigable! I have a softcover and hardcover and music versions! 

So it's been down to the author, for more than a decade across the publishing genres, to promote promote promote.

On a sad note those haiku speciality publishers outside the big haiku houses of Red Moon Press and Snapshot Press barely have any sales. Why is this, when there must be around 500 plus regular haiku poets on social media platforms?

And self-published? There is a long honorable history, even before Charles Dickens, of bringing out our own books.

Of course Dickens had to do it, and learnt from his friend HC Andersen who also very quickly brought out a winter classic to garner income.

A Christmas Carol:
http://davidabramsbooks.blogspot.com/2012/12/the-greatest-self-published-book-world.html


I also know very well a best-selling author in the haikai world who is not justly recognised, possibly because she is a best-selling author! Her books are self-published.

The author is the 'engine' and a publishing house will only do so much, or so little.

So she isn't in "the cool kids crowd" or necessarily has "the money to publish their own books" and uses Amazon Print on Demand platforms.

My Does Fish-God Know has never had a book review in the haiku print journals, and I think got a bit of a mention on one online journal, that's it. But I regularly told it's one of the best haiku collections around, and it was published way back in 2012!

Also, and sorry to say this, but this is another woman, so maybe this is a male thing? ;-)

ai li, quietly many years ago, and I think I was one of a few who noticed her come back, released high quality Kindle editions of her poetry (haiku, tanka, cherita). They were and are sublime, high production values (of course). And she has come back to the haikai world with a bang!

I was also the only one to step forward to help with two Snapshot Press launches. When there was a call out for help for the Wingbeats publication, I was the only one to step forward. I got the press a stall at the Royal Festival Hall, during the huge half a million attended Mayor's Festival in London. Karen and myself helped with the day's second launch as well! That was at the Poetry Society (UK) venue and cafe. There's a picture of myself and John Barlow, the last haiku poets standing, at around midnight in a bar-club around the corner.  Then I organised a massive launch in the City of Bath. It was so successful I had to get the editors and guest poet upstairs for health and safety. And by the way, the independent bookshop did incredibly well on other sales that evening.

It's all hard-grafting, I was often on my knees, but kept going.

Now we can only do online anyway. The promotion side of things can be via blog tours, and online festivals, and haiku zoom meet ups etc...

So the book itself?

It's about how the collection is put together. If we do just a generic competent collection we might get a few sales. If we push the boat out, just as Roberta, ai li, and the other author, the world is your oyster! But it is a lot of sheer grafting, meaning time, energy, enthusiasm, passion, and ways of getting the book out there, and not just in the obvious ways alone.

Lulu and Amazon mean you don't pay. Of course it's sensible to order at least one softcover book to check for layout errors etc... But that's cheap to do in cash, one single book, which before it's public, you can knock down to its lowest retail price. Then bump up the price when you go public!

We aren't women, but as men, we can try to be 'nearly' as good as them, fingers crossed!!! 

warmest regards,
Alan

I the US, there seem to be two options to getting a physical haiku book published. One, of course, is Red Moon Press. The other seems to be self-publishing.

In the UK, there seem to be two or three option (Alba, Snapshot, etc.)

Obviously, we're a niche market within a niche market, but I'm wondering if anyone knows of any other presses that routinely publish haiku books. This just seems a limited option for folks who either aren't in the cool kids crowd or, alternately, don't have the money to publish their own books.

[pottygok]

Deleted post. Clearly not a welcome discussion.

[AlanSummers]

Joshua,

No worries. I thought I would reply as no one else did.

Brendan Slater created Yet To Be Named Press to publish work outside this cool kids you mentioned maybe. It's gone now, but we published interesting collections like this one, now recently gone out of print:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1479304565/ref=dbs_a_def_rwt_bibl_vppi_i2

And collaborations:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1478307544/ref=dbs_a_def_rwt_bibl_vppi_i1

etc...

So you either got to do it, or find someone.

Shloka publishes but I've heard her say not many people buy the books, and I don't see the authors often busting a gut promoting their book and the press that supports them.

I know other haiku poets that create publishing houses and bust a gut, and not enough poets return that.

It's an exhausting business and sometimes thankless.

So I am not sure what you want. Are you saying your work isn't good enough?

If you find a lot of places corrupt then perhaps create a co-operative with those you don't feel are corrupt? Co-ops are not easy either, as I've witnessed in the art world.

The issue isn't one of marketing, but of having something to market. When only two or three publishers basically control the market, which I will agree is niche upon niche, and poets make poet salaries and don't have the time or resources to pay to have someone design a book, let alone print a book, then the "scene," as it is, becomes limited and myopic.

If it's not about marketing, or promoting, or letting people know about your work, your book, your poems, I must admit I'm puzzled.

I still remember this Brisbane, Queensland poet, who had a thousand books printed and took them around all day and night to cafes, bars, nightclubs etc... It took him a year but he sold every copy! That is grafting, and I mean the honest sort of grafting.

Now if someone has a full-time job, it is not easy, but I got to meet a lot of poets and novelists, while doing my Masters. One guy, he'd be up at 4am, other times he'd squash himself in the linen cupboard and not acknowledge the view or the sunshine, and get each novel done. He was a dad as well as having to hold a job down. It must have been utterly exhausting and he would have missed out on a lot of socialising. But it paid off.

Simon Armitage, current UK Poet Laureate, I met him when his wife would accompany him from post to post to gig to gig and poet-in-residencies, and he'd barely sell a couple of books sometimes. That is until he brought out this book, and starting selling big time: https://www.simonarmitage.com/sir-gawain-and-the-green-knight/

It's bleeding through the eyes sometimes. I feel you are blocking yourself. I don't care about the big publishers as it's a book I'm interested in. GoFundMe and similar set ups can work. Again, it's hard graft as you have to be on the ball supporting those who donate, but it cover production costs etc...

So I don't know what is obvious or not obvious. If you have faith in your work, which you should, and graft, and look around, it'll happen. You might even invent a system that others will pay into, as it's fresh and original and clean.

Perhaps you are 'the obvious'.

wishing you every success,

Alan

Alan,

I'm aware of all of this; however, it still seems that there are only two or three presses that regularly publish haiku, and getting onto them is a crapshoot, especially if one's haiku are merely mediocre or if one isn't in the upper echelon of the haiku world.

Furthermore, while self-publishing/POD is an option, most of those companies are extremely problematic. Amazon is EXTREMELY corrupt, for example, so using their POD service is very problematic.

The issue isn't one of marketing, but of having something to market. When only two or three publishers basically control the market, which I will agree is niche upon niche, and poets make poet salaries and don't have the time or resources to pay to have someone design a book, let alone print a book, then the "scene," as it is, becomes limited and myopic.

From what you're telling me, there are no obvious solutions.

[pottygok]

Deleted post. Clearly not a welcome discussion.

[Jason]

This doesn't seem quite fair to Alan.  It reads to me that he engaged you at length, trying (and perhaps failing) to understand your individual problem.  It seems to me that he tried to give you context and the advantage of looking over his shoulder at some of his experiences.  It's not unreasonable that you feel there may be elitism in the haiku world (I wouldn't really know), but based on Alan's responses to you I'm not sure it's fair to blame him for that while he's engaging you.

[AlanSummers]

Thank you!

I am an outlier, hence the title of my online journal I created only back in November 2020, called Blo͞o Outlier Journal. In that journal there are some who had never written a haiku before, and some who are still new to haiku. Out of the 260 poets I published, no one was rejected. I did help maybe less than half a dozen, nudging them to a haiku that said what they wanted.

I wish I did know Charles Dickens, and even moreso H.C. Andersen, but those name droppings aren't because they are 'mates'. 

I was actually a little spellbound to have met Simon Armitage, but that was during a Diploma in Creative Writing at the University of Bristol. A difficult time for me as I was a full-time carer to my mom, and Karen developed M.E. (Myalgic encephalomyelitis): https://www.meresearch.org.uk/what-is-me/

Of course there is elitism in any area of life, and like my adoptive father, I've avoided being in a "gang" and lazily relying on nepotism.  I am an enabler where and when I can be though. And I am not in anyone's favor or patronage.

Dear catenate, you have been accurate in this post. And I thank you for that.

Joshua Gage created this post, and for some time I was the only one to answer, for what I assumed was a genuine request for a response.

The question was:
"... I'm wondering if anyone knows of any other presses that routinely publish haiku books. This just seems a limited option for folks who either aren't in the cool kids crowd or, alternately, don't have the money to publish their own books."

Indie presses can come and go, and sometimes we have to create our own, or keep searching for news of a press. If you do not already know about Cyberwit which is well known amongst haiku poets in the USA, India, Europe etc...

Publish Poem Collection | Poetry Submission
https://www.cyberwit.net/pages/Publishingprocess

There will be others I am sure.

I can't create a press, but I created my journal so people from all areas of haikai literature could have something published for Christmas Eve. I finished just after 4am British time Christmas Eve, as it was more work than I allowed for, and so Christmas was a bit of blur due to sleep deprivation in the two days I could allot myself! 

So sorry, not one of the elite, and any influence or power I have it's to help not hinder. In fact Karen is making a Call of the Page report on just how much outreach we do in fact. That doesn't even include what I do outside of Call of the Page.

I can only answer in my own manner. Obviously anything I say will not be taken in the spirit it is intended, so I will bow out.

This doesn't seem quite fair to Alan.  It reads to me that he engaged you at length, trying (and perhaps failing) to understand your individual problem.  It seems to me that he tried to give you context and the advantage of looking over his shoulder at some of his experiences.  It's not unreasonable that you feel there may be elitism in the haiku world (I wouldn't really know), but based on Alan's responses to you I'm not sure it's fair to blame him for that while he's engaging you.

[AlanSummers]

Thank you!

I am an outlier, hence the title of my online journal I created only back in November 2020, called Blo͞o Outlier Journal. In that journal there are some who had never written a haiku before, and some who are still new to haiku. Out of the 260 poets I published, no one was rejected. I did help maybe less than half a dozen, nudging them to a haiku that said what they wanted.

I wish I did know Charles Dickens, and even moreso H.C. Andersen, but those name droppings aren't because they are 'mates'. 

I was actually a little spellbound to have met Simon Armitage, but that was during a Diploma in Creative Writing at the University of Bristol. A difficult time for me as I was a full-time carer to my mom, and Karen developed M.E. (Myalgic encephalomyelitis): https://www.meresearch.org.uk/what-is-me/

Of course there is elitism in any area of life, and like my adoptive father, I've avoided being in a "gang" and lazily relying on nepotism.  I am an enabler where and when I can be though. And I am not in anyone's favor or patronage.

Dear catenate, you have been accurate in this post. And I thank you for that.

Joshua Gage created this post, and for some time I was the only one to answer, for what I assumed was a genuine request for a response.

The question was:
"... I'm wondering if anyone knows of any other presses that routinely publish haiku books. This just seems a limited option for folks who either aren't in the cool kids crowd or, alternately, don't have the money to publish their own books."

Indie presses can come and go, and sometimes we have to create our own, or keep searching for news of a press. If you do not already know about Cyberwit which is well known amongst haiku poets in the USA, India, Europe etc...

Publish Poem Collection | Poetry Submission
https://www.cyberwit.net/pages/Publishingprocess

There will be others I am sure.

I can't create a press, but I created my journal so people from all areas of haikai literature could have something published for Christmas Eve. I finished just after 4am British time Christmas Eve, as it was more work than I allowed for, and so Christmas was a bit of blur due to sleep deprivation in the two days I could allot myself! 

So sorry, not one of the elite, and any influence or power I have it's to help not hinder. In fact Karen is making a Call of the Page report on just how much outreach we do in fact. That doesn't even include what I do outside of Call of the Page.

I can only answer in my own manner. Obviously anything I say will not be taken in the spirit it is intended, so I will bow out.

This doesn't seem quite fair to Alan.  It reads to me that he engaged you at length, trying (and perhaps failing) to understand your individual problem.  It seems to me that he tried to give you context and the advantage of looking over his shoulder at some of his experiences.  It's not unreasonable that you feel there may be elitism in the haiku world (I wouldn't really know), but based on Alan's responses to you I'm not sure it's fair to blame him for that while he's engaging you.

Alan,

You're snobbily name dropping, trying to show off that you're part of the elite, and then sneering at the folks who aren't. This is exactly the problem that I'm trying to discuss.

I haven't asked about marketing books; I'm well aware as a poet and someone who's had books published how much hustling and marketing goes into a book. I'm asking, very specifically, about publishers that routinely publish haiku collections.

So far you've mentioned two--Red Moon Press and Snapshots--both of which teeter towards elitism within the haiku community. I know there are one or two others, but as you've pointed out, they tend to fold or get drummed out as soon as they pop up. Alternately, they do virtual books, which don't seem to have the same selling power or clout in the poetry world as an actual, tangible book.

Outside of that, your responses have been about promoting books. That wasn't the question. The question is how to get a book in print. If the options are limited, basically two or three presses and some really problematic POD places, then I'd say there's a major problem in the haiku community that needs to be addressed.

[Lorraine Pester]

Hi Alan,

Had not heard of cyberwit. But then, that doesn’t surprise me since I’m not actively trying to publish even the occasional single poem here and there, let alone a book.

Thank you for the link which now resides on my iPad 🙃  Of course, a book is always in the back of my mind. 😉  I know someone with poetry he’d like to see published so I’ll be sharing that link with him. We’ll both head your direction when we’re ready to ready the galleys.

I appreciate everything you do (that I know about 🤓).

The best to you and Karen for this New Year


Lorraine

[flowerfox]

Just been reading through this-

Quote-

'you're snobbily name dropping, trying to show off that you are part of the elite, and sneering at the folk who aren't'

pottygok, you couldn't be more WRONG if you tried.

[pottygok]

flowerfox,

I have deleted my comments as the discussion about book publishers is clearly not a welcome topic and has obviously been shut down by the powers that be. I'd ask that you respect that.

Thank you.

[flowerfox]

Respect is a two way street, something for you to think about, and remember.

[pottygok]

Clearly not in these forums.

Seriously, I asked a question, had some OWM tell me how famous he was and how he knew everyone in the world of haiku without actually answering my question, and then when I called him on his BS, I got dumped on.

So I deleted my question, as it clearly wasn’t anything anyone actually wants to discuss and address. Which is fine, but once the OP asks someone to stop, it’s polite to actually stop.

You have not; your “two-way street” is clearly a one-way, dead-end alley and I’m in your headlights while you floor the gas.

Seriously. Stop responding to this post.