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become (haiku & transformation)

Started by Scott Metz, July 23, 2011, 04:06:16 AM

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Mark Harris

#45
"There is no one to one correspondence of language to world (Wittgenstein, Derrida, Barthes, et al) and so expressing a "truth" through the fantastical or metaphoric in poetry is in its very nature." --Jack

yes, did squids fluoresce above Tohta's head as he worked in the bank all those years ago? And on a different day, did he get into an argument about haiku, go out into the street, climb onto a bike and roar away? Did he see a motorcycle go by? Did he become one? Does he remember? We are discussing an act of creation. The end result is the words, and the author himself may not know all their sources.

Jack Galmitz

Indeed. I'm not questioning the act of creation is with words; of course, it is.  Then, we are left with the signifiers, the words, that relate to other words, and there is no centered consciousness or author anymore; it is the reader's text and all their associations, connotations, memories, dreams, reflections, much of which is unconscious.
But words, yes, they are our medium of existence.  That's why I like to look for the affect of the words, because I think you can best express something by choice of words rather than attempt to reflect any factual.  Writing off the subject, someone called it, was the best pursuit, if you wanted to express the subject.

chibi575

Quote from: Mark Harris on July 25, 2011, 02:12:54 PM
to ride on a motorcycle or any open air vehicle at high velocity is a speedrush. A miscalculation in steering or leaning, a pebble in the road, a blink of an eye at the wrong moment . . . if you want to live, attention to the operation at hand is vital. Put out of your mind such minor matters as syllable counts and nationalism and warring saijiki and cops and wolves. Go, Kaneko, go, but remember to write the haiku down later.

I agree with you upto, "nationalism", this, is and never has been the issue, I feel, also, perhaps a certain discipline (in terms of the meaning of sensei "those that go before" might be a courteous concideration).  Although, I think your remarks in an a courteous spirit, I take issue in calling "cops" and "wolves" as a way of demonizing those of different opinions.

I understand the idea behind the word "free" applied to verse, but, there is always a cost and possible collateral damage.  To end in cliche': "There is no free lunch..."

I do quite agree, that if you do not care for a certain style not to embrace it is well within your rights.

keep it  8)
知美

Mark Harris

"Although, I think your remarks in an a courteous spirit, I take issue in calling "cops" and "wolves" as a way of demonizing those of different opinions." --Chibi

I did not mean to offend you, and take care never to demonize (as if i had that power) anyone. By cops I meant literally the police in Japan who arrested and harassed (not in a metaphorical way) gendai haiku poets. I used the word wolf in reference to the haiku magazine and to Tohta's haiku group, and my intention was to include Tohta (the political side of him) in my statement.

For what it's worth, I enjoy traditional and modern haiku, written in any language.

chibi575

Dear Mark,

My apology, with your explanations I am eggfaced.   :-[

write on... keep it  8)
知美

Mark Harris

no, wash the egg off, please.

I thought irreverence might provide insight into a Tohta poem circa 1961. Opacity, and subsequent misunderstanding, was an unfortunate byproduct.

Lorin

#51
Quote from: Gabi Greve on July 25, 2011, 11:52:41 AM
Is tsukushi a kireji, then?

No, it is not a cut marker.
It is derived from tsukusu ...  to exhaust

http://dic.search.yahoo.co.jp/search?p=%E5%B0%BD%E3%81%8F%E3%81%99&aq=0&oq=%E3%81%A4%E3%81%8F%E3%81%99&r_dtype=all&ei=UTF-8

You can check the most common kireji here
http://haikutopics.blogspot.com/2006/06/kireji.html



I am still trying to find out if Tohta sensei used a motorbike at that time, maybe to drive home from the haiku meeting after the heated discussion.

Gabi

.

Thanks Gabi... just intuitively (which is as often wrong as right) this (prose) sense occurs:

" having exhausted the topic of the heated argument"

I go out into the street
and become a motor bike

...which emits an identifiable motorbike sound through its exhaust pipe (& pollutes the air?)

In other words, could there be, lurking somewhere in this ku, the same pun on 'exhaust' in Japanese as there is in English?

With the word "exhausted [the topic of conversation]"  echoed by the implied sound coming from the exhaust pipe of a motorbike as it starts up and takes off?

If that's the case in the Japanese, then there's a piece of the puzzle entirely missing in the English translations.... tsukushi ( "derived from tsukusu ...  to exhaust") appears not to have found its way into the translations, anyway.

I know that Tohta (I think it was Tohta) used a sound pun in a dandelion...tanpoppo? ...haiku, that you explained somewhere.

- Lorin

modified: found I'd posted my comments within Gabi's quoted comments  ::) so corrected that, then added the 2nd last sentence to (hopefully) clarify what I mean by my guess. Then added the last sentence.

Gabi Greve

激論つくし街ゆきオートバイと化す

gekiron tsukushi michi-yuki ootobai to ka su

Kaneko Tohta, in 1961


In other words, could there be, lurking somewhere in this ku,
the same pun on 'exhaust' in Japanese as there is in English?


No, I do not think so.

tsukusu means to use something to its fullest, to do all that can be done with it,
but not in the sense of exhaust fumes of a motor bike.
It is used for example of a meal where one special ingredient is used in all preparations, like in the soup, fried, steamed, in salad and so on.

michi-yuki ootobai
The poem also does not say "I go out into the street"
but rather  "a motor bike passes on the street"

ka su
is a poetic short version of henka suru, when A changes into B.

Got to run.
Gabi

.

Lorin

" tsukusu means to use something to its fullest, to do all that can be done with it," - Gabi

yes, so does 'exhaust' (verb)...to 'to exhaust the supply', 'to exhaust the potential' of something. Yet this is connected (in English) with 'exhaust' as used in relation to motor vehicles. The 'exhaust pipe' is what carries the remaining gases from exhausted fuel away from the engine. The remaining gasses and carbon left over from the exhausted fuel are called "the exhaust" (noun)

having exhausted the hot topic
I go out into the street --
a motorbike passes

;D well, I like it, anyway. The connection/ relationship between discussion topic and motorbike is implied, as is the relationship of the sound of a motorbike to the sound of people arguing a 'hot topic'. . . people sounding like motorbikes, a motorbike sounding like people expressing their views strongly.

gekiron tsukushi michi-yuki ootobai to ka su

After hateful words,
I roar off
like a motorcycle.

(tr. by Lucian Stryk)

or

After a heated argument
I go out to the street
and become a motorcycle

(tr. by Makoto Ueda)

I can't understand why tsukushi didn't make it into the translations. There has to be a reason.

- Lorin

Lorin

" After a heated argument" --- heated:   the product of combustion?

"Definition: Combustion is a chemical reaction that occurs between a fuel and an oxidizing agent that produces energy, usually in the form of heat and light. 

Internal Combustion Engine:

"The internal combustion engine is an engine in which the combustion of a fuel (normally a fossil fuel) occurs with an oxidizer (usually air) in a combustion chamber. In an internal combustion engine, the expansion of the high-temperature and -pressure gases produced by combustion applies direct force to some component of the engine, such as pistons, turbine blades, or a nozzle. This force moves the component over a distance, generating useful mechanical energy.[1][2][3][4]"


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internal_combustion_engine

exhaust:

ex·haust Pronunciation (g-zôst)
v. ex·haust·ed, ex·haust·ing, ex·hausts
v.tr.
1. To wear out completely. See Synonyms at tire1.
2. To drain of resources or properties; deplete: tobacco crops that exhausted the soil. See Synonyms at deplete.
3. To use up completely: exhausted our funds before the month was out.
4. To treat completely; cover thoroughly: exhaust a topic.
5. To draw out the contents of; drain: exhaust a tank gradually.
6. To let out or draw off: exhaust vaporous wastes through a pipe.
v.intr.
To escape or pass out: Steam exhausts through this valve.
n.
1.
a. The escape or release of vaporous waste material, as from an engine.
b. The fumes or gases so released.
2. A duct or pipe through which waste material is emitted.
3. An apparatus for drawing out noxious air or waste material by means of a partial vacuum.
[Latin exhaurre, exhaust- : ex-, ex- + haurre, to draw.]

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/exhaust

In relation to the poem, the "I'' of the ku still has energy after exhausting the topic of the 'heated discussion', and goes out into the street only to recognise himself (metaphorically) in a motorbike, still having more 'fuel' for more combustion and therefore able to go a further distance?

- Lorin

Gabi Greve

gekiron tsukushi michi-yuki ootobai to ka su

gekiron ... geki ron

the RON is the argument, but the GEKI is only "heated" in my English translation, since it is an English expression, I think, to have a "heated argument".

the GEKI in Japanese is not about temperature. not a product of combustion.
http://dic.search.yahoo.co.jp/search?p=%E6%BF%80&aq=-1&oq=&r_dtype=all&ei=UTF-8

it is more in the vein of "vehement".

Gabi


AlanSummers

Dear Lorin and Gabi

This is fascinating. :-)

I do wonder if Lorin is onto something though.

You can exhaust an argument as well.

What we need is an indepth Japanese English dictionary on modern slang and colliquisms and I wonder if such a thing truly exists?

Alan


Quote from: Gabi Greve on July 26, 2011, 07:18:52 AM
gekiron tsukushi michi-yuki ootobai to ka su

gekiron ... geki ron

the RON is the argument, but the GEKI is only "heated" in my English translation, since it is an English expression, I think, to have a "heated argument".

the GEKI in Japanese is not about temperature. not a product of combustion.
http://dic.search.yahoo.co.jp/search?p=%E6%BF%80&aq=-1&oq=&r_dtype=all&ei=UTF-8

it is more in the vein of "vehement".

Gabi



Lorin

#57
Quote from: Gabi Greve on July 26, 2011, 07:18:52 AM
gekiron tsukushi michi-yuki ootobai to ka su

gekiron ... geki ron

the RON is the argument, but the GEKI is only "heated" in my English translation, since it is an English expression, I think, to have a "heated argument".

the GEKI in Japanese is not about temperature. not a product of combustion.
http://dic.search.yahoo.co.jp/search?p=%E6%BF%80&aq=-1&oq=&r_dtype=all&ei=UTF-8

it is more in the vein of "vehement".

Gabi



gekiron tsukushi michi-yuki ootobai to ka su


" gekiron ... geki ron

the RON is the argument, but the GEKI is only "heated" in my English translation"

Yep, that fits , Gabi...but where is tsukushi in the translations?

heated argument exhausted
I go out into the street
and become a motorbike

(or "a motorbike passes" ?)

yours,
Sherlock Ford  8)

ps. in which case there would be an implied sense of "vented" , "venting" [one's emotional attachments to one's own position in the argument] as well. The argument (or the topic of it) is exhausted, but also one's emotions, in relation to it, have been 'exhausted' in the sense of 'safely carried away/ given an outlet', like the exhaust from an engine is carried away ( or 'vented') by the exhaust pipe.

vent 1 Pronunciation (vnt)
n.
1. A means of escape or release from confinement; an outlet: give vent to one's anger.
2. An opening permitting the escape of fumes, a liquid, a gas, or steam.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/vent

It fits for me, anyway.

---
modified: added the ps.

Gabi Greve

Hi Sherlock,

gekiron tsukushi michi-yuki ootobai to ka su

Kaneko Tohta, in 1961


After hateful words,
I roar off
like a motorcycle.

(tr. by Lucian Stryk)

or

After a heated argument
I go out to the street
and become a motorcycle

(tr. by Makoto Ueda)

I guess both these translations use AFTER as translation for tsukushi .


Gabi
.

Lorin

But 'after' doesn't carry the metaphorical connections with 'motorbike' that 'exhausted' /tsukushi does. So why would translators ignore tsukushi ( a rich word, in context) and replace it with a mere preposition (indicating place in time, and no more) in English?

- Lorin

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