haiku or hokku -- is there a difference?

[haikurambler]

By hokku we mean pre-Shiki (especially the http://bit.ly/big-5 of Nippon's classical period). By haiku we mean post-Shiki (in the global sense as well as regionally in Japan). Some may suggest another watershed, and others still may propose that there is no division. Whatever your perspective feel free to share any ideas in your own words.

For focus: Is the following a haiku, hokku, or neither?

so scruffy and crass
the sparrow's children-
splashing in dust

jp

[John McManus]

John, the only way the above verse can be a hokku is if you're planning on it being the opening verse of a linked verse.

Why on earth would you want to call it a hokku if it's a standalone verse? I think there's enough debate over what a haiku is and isn't already. There's no need to muddy the waters any further.

warmest,
John

[haikurambler]

John, the only way the above verse can be a hokku is if you're planning on it being the opening verse of a linked verse.

Why on earth would you want to call it a hokku if it's a standalone verse? I think there's enough debate over what a haiku is and isn't already. There's no need to muddy the waters any further.

warmest,
John

Can I quote you on that?

[John McManus]

And why would you want to quote me John?

I gave you my honest opinion on the verse you posted. I make no claims to have any kind of superior knowledge or authority. I'm just a guy who loves to read and write haiku.

I'm not interested in telling anybody what they can and can't do and I certainly have no interest in playing games with anyone who does such things.

[haikurambler]

And why would you want to quote me John?

I'm currently preparing an article -- partially to deepen my own understanding of this often misunderstood question.

so scruffy and crass
the sparrow's children-
splashing in dust

jp

John, the only way the above verse can be a hokku is if you're planning on it being the opening verse of a linked verse. - John McManus

Let's run your opinion (and other members are invited to respond also) using the following well-known ku as a focus now:

old pond
a frog jumps in
the sound of water

- Basho, 1644 – 1694
(common translation)

[John McManus]

Well John, let me make this clear just so there's no confusion.

You do not have my permission to quote me under any circumstance in any form of media.

I know you've already screen captured me and I find it disturbing that you are trying to dress up your shenanigans as some kind of personal quest for understanding.



       

[haikurambler]

You do not have my permission to quote me under any circumstance in any form of media.

If you are not keen on standing by your previous opinion, that's not a problem.

John, the only way the above verse can be a hokku is if you're planning on it being the opening verse of a linked verse. - John McManus

However, if it is the case that you feel your previous opinion to be in need of modification, then what actually is your opinion now? Try to stay with the topic. Here's a tighter focus for this threads growing fan base to consider:


so scruffy and crass
the sparrow's children-
splashing in dust

jp


old pond
a frog jumps in
the sound of water

Basho


Which one is a haiku and which one is a hokku; or are they both haiku; or both hokku?