developing vocabulary

[chibi575]

I was watching an interesting documentary on bees called COLONY.  It turns out to really be about beekeepers and their struggle with the yet-understood disappearing bees.  Beekeepers are quite a monoculture in that they are a rather unique fellowship that is not well understood by those outside that culture, yet, they (the beekeepers) provide a vital stewardship over one of the key links in fruit production, bees.  Their efforts are usually hidden in the fruit and vegetable industry because that effort is not readily obvious, but, essential to get bees to the flowers that need to be fertilized to produce fruit (fruit meaning the generic product of flower fertilization, and, even the word "ferlilization" is most associated with chemical enhancement of soil and not commonly associated with flowering and fruiting).  Because, for the most part the beekeeper stewardship is neccessary but obscure, fruit farming is more concerned with the more overt components of fruit production, one of those being pesticides.  The documentary began to point out that there needs to be a focused dialog between the pesticide manufacturers, farmers, and the beekeeper, because, as it turns out the bees are a form of monoculture and vulnerable to a vector that if affects one affects all.  As part of this conclave between beekeeper, pesticide manufacturers, and farmers an interesting phrase, "developing vocabulary" came to the forefront.

You may be starting to ask what does this have to do with the Japanese literary genre haiku and its derivatives.  Well, as I was watching this documentary, a thought occured to me that us short poetry poets are similar in a way to the beekeepers, in that we are a rather unique fellowship (comparated even to the rest of the body of poets) mostly obscure in our efforts and may have the characteristics of a similar monoculture as the beekeeper.  That then made me muse, do we need "developing vocabulary" with the rest of the literature producing and using communities?

[AlanSummers]

Hi Dennis,

Very interesting post.

Perhaps a developing vocabulary is needed, although many haiku writers regularly mix with other types of poets and writers.

The main glitch, as I found out yet again last night, is this seventeen syllable myth that is so entrenched.

I was at a garden party, which was on the grounds owned by Alex Moulton: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alex_Moulton

A rather posh obviously educated woman, possibly a doctor, said to me when I mentioned haiku, that she hoped that I was a proper haiku poet who wrote haiku in seventeen syllables and not in the style of those (awful) American writers.

I said that indeed I was a proper haiku poet, and that the seventeen syllables was an urban myth unless you wrote in Japanese.

Alas she wasn't one to engage in further conversation, and I felt she was far too posh and educated to want to know why.

It is incredible that even a highly educated person would be so closed, not just to haiku, but possibly other subjects.

I know you don't think anyone, but a Japanese citizen, can write haiku, but the term is entrenched with tens of millions of people worldwide, mostly as anything goes as long as it's in seventeen syllables.

As this is often the main block to learning more about haiku, what developing vocabulary do you suggest.

Although this woman in question might continue to be close-minded, and I have had hundreds of people thank me for liberating them from the 17 syllable myth that stopped them writing haiku.

Alan

I was watching an interesting documentary on bees called COLONY.  It turns out to really be about beekeepers and their struggle with the yet-understood disappearing bees.  Beekeepers are quite a monoculture in that they are a rather unique fellowship that is not well understood by those outside that culture, yet, they (the beekeepers) provide a vital stewardship over one of the key links in fruit production, bees.  Their efforts are usually hidden in the fruit and vegetable industry because that effort is not readily obvious, but, essential to get bees to the flowers that need to be fertilized to produce fruit (fruit meaning the generic product of flower fertilization, and, even the word "ferlilization" is most associated with chemical enhancement of soil and not commonly associated with flowering and fruiting).  Because, for the most part the beekeeper stewardship is neccessary but obscure, fruit farming is more concerned with the more overt components of fruit production, one of those being pesticides.  The documentary began to point out that there needs to be a focused dialog between the pesticide manufacturers, farmers, and the beekeeper, because, as it turns out the bees are a form of monoculture and vulnerable to a vector that if affects one affects all.  As part of this conclave between beekeeper, pesticide manufacturers, and farmers an interesting phrase, "developing vocabulary" came to the forefront.

You may be starting to ask what does this have to do with the Japanese literary genre haiku and its derivatives.  Well, as I was watching this documentary, a thought occured to me that us short poetry poets are similar in a way to the beekeepers, in that we are a rather unique fellowship (comparated even to the rest of the body of poets) mostly obscure in our efforts and may have the characteristics of a similar monoculture as the beekeeper.  That then made me muse, do we need "developing vocabulary" with the rest of the literature producing and using communities?

[chibi575]

Alan, thanks always for your replies.

I want to clear up a misunderstanding.  When I say, "if it ain't Japanese, it ain't haiku", it means that in a cultural absorbtion way.  I know that Robin D. Gill, is not a native Japanese, for example, but, he, after being in Japan for 20 years has the technical and cultural background to write haiku and does.  I, myself, hope to eventually acquire the same and one of my personal goals is to develop similar abilities and skills. 

I am beginning to feel that what may help solidify and clarify what we are writing in USAian (for example) needs a "developing vocabulary".  Some, of this vocabulary is being developed as a natural process of writing our genre.  For example the term, "Tontoism" as in "The Nick of Time: Essays on Haiku Aesthetics" by Paul O. Williams (c) 2001, Press Here.  I am sure, other terms and approaches can lend to a codified, "vocabulary", if the wealth of information in the transportation of haiku into American literature can be examined.  This effort has a great potential to being fun, also; but, the resistence to those whose cup is full (an example being perhaps the poosh person in your reply) will always be there.

Of course, the above USAian example can also be applied to other countries, although, I'm affraid, "Tontoism" a term derived from a rather dated series on American TV, "The Lone Ranger", but, may serve as a simple example.

ciao...

[Don Baird]

ma, zoka, karumi, yugen, tontoism, kiregi, kigo, in any language are some of the terms we use ... are these what you tend to mean here?  Should they be translated into English?... or do you mean vocabulary in Japanese and/or English?  Are all words in any language everyone's or do they need to be in the relative language of the poet?

interesting thoughts, chibi.

Don

[chibi575]

Hi Don,

Not so much "borrowed" Japanese words, but, some originating in local literature, perhaps, Poe's "tintinnabulation", also, we as USAians should examine and coin words for the way we practice ELH?  Shiki sama coined, "haiku", and, by similar means should we examine such coinage? 

It may and should take time for "developing vocabulary", I feel; but, I also feel confident this is part of our path.

I wonder if, as in other explorative topics in THF, we might or might not add "ku" to vocabulary possiblities?  I think you, Don, endorsed, Colin Stewart Jones' "forku", for "foreign ku" (although this a grand attempt to lightening the discussion at the time, and, Colin Stewart Jones is not from the USA).  This made me ponder further.  Should we reexamine some of Bill Higginson's (and others) work for such vocabulary?  "Rengay" might be an example found while exploring HSA journals and writings.

Explore and enjoy...

ciao...

[Gabi Greve]

Hi Chibi san,

I plead for MyKu ... my very own ku ... so anyone can say his/her poem is a (haiku).

Got to run in a hurry ...

new vocabulary -
a haiku is a haiku is
a haiku


Gabi

[John McManus]

Hi Chibi, this is an interesting topic.

First off, I do think there is a developing vocabulary within EL haiku. I don't think it's a huge vocabulary at the minute, but I think only when haiku becomes a more ingrained part of western culture and poetics that we can start expanding it greatly.

At the minute there are no haiku groups or events in the far north of England, where I live. Hell, there isn't even any decent contemporary haiku books in the local libraries or bookstores. I can't for certain say what it may be like elsewhere, but it would be my guess that this reality is repeated elsewhere.

I must admit Chibi that I find your thoughts on cultural absorbtion a touch ironic. It seems from your reply to Alan that you are saying we must have experience and knowledge of Japanese culture to be able to write haiku. Is this correct?

Would it not be fair to say that modern Japanese haiku poets have been influenced by western poetics and culture? Plus I thought the whole point of calling the kind of haiku we westerners write 'English-language haiku' is that in general it is not the same kind of haiku that Japanese poets write.

warmest,
John

[chibi575]

Hi John,

Thanks for your reply.  I seem to be misunderstood when I say, "if it ain't Japanese, it ain't haiku".  I mean simply don't call what we write in English, haiku.  It's just not.  It is similar.  It is based upon a conglomeration of Japanese literary form(s) (essentially hokku and haiku), but it just can never be haiku.

We need another name/genre or set of names/genre to coin and take ownership of the resulting poetry.

So, whether we as short poetry poets like it or not, this is the way it should trend, I feel.

As to ELH (the current compromised name using abreviation for "Eglish Language Haiku") groups and library endorsements and support, well, it is a bit dismal in all but metropolitan cities (and even there).  I hope over time this will change and I see it is changing with the use of the internet, although, the practice of sitting down at a pub or equivalent and sharing drink and verse is mostly a thing of the past, the internet being instrumental in the way we communicate and acquire information (sans physical library books, as I speak, this mode is fluxing away from "paper", ie., Kindle & iPad).  I recommend, as relief of some consternation, using the internet and shift the way we think about engagement of common interests and passions.  In fact, this short but powerful form of poetry lends itself to modern electronic use, as examples: twitter, texting, and the like.  

As to "developing vocabulary", this will grow and become a vital part, I hope, with the growing understanding and practice of writing and reading of and in this "undiscovered country" of short English poetry. (Nods to The Bard, and, Star Trek  ;D ).

ciao...

[AlanSummers]

Hi Dennis,

The problem is that those of us who study Japanese haiku, and articles on Japanese haiku in depth, at least in translation, started dropping the  term haiku, it would still leave millions of people calling their jokey 17 syllable verses by the term haiku.

If you could work on those who do, or attempt, nonsense 17 syllable verse and call it haiku because it is 17 syllables, so that they drop the term, that would be a great start.

Otherwise if all non-Japanese haiku writers ceased calling their work haiku, after studying Japanese haiku, it would leave millions owning the right to call their stuff haiku.

It just doesn't make to make those of us who respect the haiku genre drop the term, when millions of people just think haiku is anything comical in seventeen syllables.

If you could also give your examples of developing vocabulary here, that would be really helpful.

I think most of us will continue to call our work haiku, because we write based on the genre and/or form of haiku and other haikai literature.

I think it's important to continue using certain terms as haiku; kireji; and kigo for instance.

A successful argument for those who think haiku are funny comical seventeen syllable verses is to ask does it contain kireji and kigo.  Kire and kireji go further in supporting developing vocabulary, as many people just think bunging in a weather report makes a haiku, or simply slapping in Spring; or  Summer; or Autumn/Fall; or Winter doth make a haiku.

Haiku is under the banner of short form poetry, so calling haiku short form poetry is misleading as it's one of many genres and forms under that umbrella term.

Also dropping ku onto anything else just dilutes the situation.

Not really sure why this interesting topic has gone into not calling anything haiku unless it's in Japanese etc... helps.

Unless someone really comes up with a fantastic term which is the equivalent of Shiki making haiku the term for the standalone hokku, I feel it's a red herring.

Alan

Hi John,

Thanks for your reply.  I seem to be misunderstood when I say, "if it ain't Japanese, it ain't haiku".  I mean simply don't call what we write in English, haiku.  It's just not.  It is similar.  It is based upon a conglomeration of Japanese literary form(s) (essentially hokku and haiku), but it just can never be haiku.

We need another name/genre or set of names/genre to coin and take ownership of the resulting poetry.

So, whether we as short poetry poets like it or not, this is the way it should trend, I feel.

As to ELH (the current compromised name using abreviation for "Eglish Language Haiku") groups and library endorsements and support, well, it is a bit dismal in all but metropolitan cities (and even there).  I hope over time this will change and I see it is changing with the use of the internet, although, the practice of sitting down at a pub or equivalent and sharing drink and verse is mostly a thing of the past, the internet being instrumental in the way we communicate and acquire information (sans physical library books, as I speak, this mode is fluxing away from "paper", ie., Kindle & iPad).  I recommend, as relief of some consternation, using the internet and shift the way we think about engagement of common interests and passions.  In fact, this short but powerful form of poetry lends itself to modern electronic use, as examples: twitter, texting, and the like.  

As to "developing vocabulary", this will grow and become a vital part, I hope, with the growing understanding and practice of writing and reading of and in this "undiscovered country" of short English poetry. (Nods to The Bard, and, Star Trek  ;D ).

ciao...

[chibi575]

red herring -- sushi?

Alan, thanks for your reply.  Wild goose or red herring...

I don't have as yet a definitive "developing vocabulary".  I might just be fishing... as you suggest.  I am ok with you believing it a waste of time, really.

Yes, it is my personal pet peeve, as is many of the so-called "haiku".  I have the right to rankle as anyone else.  I do not have within my limited experiences as catchy a coinage as Shiki did with "haiku" from "hokku".  I simply suggest trying, red herring and all.  If it a fool's errand... I join the ranks.

ciao...

[AlanSummers]

Hi Dennis! ;-)

red herring -- sushi?

No, sashimi. ;-)


I don't have as yet a definitive "developing vocabulary".  I might just be fishing... as you suggest.  I am ok with you believing it a waste of time, really.

I don't think you are fishing re developing vocabulary, but I do feel that finding another name for haiku in English for a few hundred of us, while millions will keep calling their comic stuff haiku BECAUSE it has seventeen syllables, is a complete goose chase.

Those millions will never change what they do from haiku to say 'comic verse'.  It just won't happen, and even if you convinced us to change what we call haiku to something else, that would vindicate what millions do for a bit of a laff, and authenticate what they do as haiku because we don't call our's haiku anymore.

Is developing vocabulary a tool for dialogue between us and mainstream poetry practitioners, and us and Jo and Joe Public?

Yes, it is my personal pet peeve, as is many of the so-called "haiku".  I have the right to rankle as anyone else.  I do not have within my limited experiences as catchy a coinage as Shiki did with "haiku" from "hokku".  I simply suggest trying, red herring and all.  If it a fool's errand... I join the ranks.

Of course many of us do rankle when doggerel is labelled haiku by so many, and you rankle that we, who have pursued a craft in creating haiku, should now disown that term, but haven't done so.

I'm presuming that 'developing vocabulary' is to enable us to interact with the public, and that schools, colleges, universities, libraries, and all places of learning, take haiku practice more seriously, and know the difference between 'haikus' and 'haiku'.

As I also teach haiku as a literacy tool, as well as a legitimate part of literature events, I'm always open to anything that's useful to increase understanding.

all my best,

Alan

red herring -- sushi?

Alan, thanks for your reply.  Wild goose or red herring...

I don't have as yet a definitive "developing vocabulary".  I might just be fishing... as you suggest.  I am ok with you believing it a waste of time, really.

Yes, it is my personal pet peeve, as is many of the so-called "haiku".  I have the right to rankle as anyone else.  I do not have within my limited experiences as catchy a coinage as Shiki did with "haiku" from "hokku".  I simply suggest trying, red herring and all.  If it a fool's errand... I join the ranks.

ciao...

[John McManus]

I think Alan has found the crux of this argument.

I feel it is a pertinent question that if we who take the time to learn and appreciate haikai literature can't call our english attempts haiku/senryu/haibun/tanka/haiga . . . Then how do you stop the millions who know nothing about haikai other than what they read in books or web entries that are out of date or just flat out wrong?

I would be interested Dennis to hear your personal definition of what a haiku is. You have me intrigued.

warmest,
John

[Don Baird]

I think it's rather clear that haiku can indeed be written well in English.  Though a different language from where haiku was created, haiku (in English) can, with the right poet, carry the poem well enough to retain its now famed name, haiku.

It's absolutely true that many folks writing in English simply miss the entire essence, structure and theories of haiku.  But, those aside, in any genre, haiku is established and often well written in English.

Baseball is played rather well in Japan too.  I believe they still call "strikes", "balls", "you're out of here" (LOL), "home run" ... and though in a different language, true baseball lives on in Japan.

Sonnets live on from Italy as well ... in English, French and a zillion other languages.

This is old.  And thank goodness, it's not going anywhere but behind the scenes with the intellectuals pondering whether haiku can exist in any language but Japanese. It does; it will always.

Furthermore, the Haiku Foundation would have to change its name to "the Short English Poetry Foundation" of which would exclude a zillion other folks around the globe that do not read, write or speak English.   ::) :P :o 8)

Haiku is no longer exclusive and hasn't been for quite a long time.  So, it's time to accept where it is and begin to study Japanese techniques of writing such poems so that the integrity of them will not be lost.  There is skill in writing haiku; there are requirements; haiku, like the game monopoly, has rules of engagement.  We cannot escape that, change the rules and/or bend the art form beyond recognition either.  There is some inherent responsibility for the poets to live up to if they indeed want to continue calling the short poem haiku - in any language.

Instead of bantering about whether we can do it or not or what it should be called, I believe we should spend more time studying the Japanese ways and improve our skills at writing haiku in every regard. There is no argument.  It is already called haiku worldwide.  It's too late to change.  It has its own momentum.  It's this momentum we need to deal with.  Alan has it dead on.  Without us, without authentic haiku in the English language, the comic poets win - worldwide; then, the genre haiku (in English) will be ruined forever.

We are the caretakers.  We need to take that role of responsibility and do it right in any language.  

By the way, I also do not like the words ELH - English Language Haiku (I used to be for the idea but no longer).  I believe it is degrading of our work and the work of others who speak other languages than English.  We cannot and do not have to add the language as a preface to our artform, no matter where we're from or what we speak.  We write haiku.  That's it.  :)

Happy haiku-ing.

:)

Revised for clarification of ELH position.

[Gabi Greve]

quoting Don :

There is skill in writing haiku;
there are requirements;
haiku, like the game monopoly, has rules of engagement. 

We cannot escape that, change the rules and/or bend the art form beyond recognition either. 

There is some inherent responsibility for the poets to live up to if they indeed want to continue calling the short poem haiku - in any language.

Well stated, dear Don!
Gabi

.

[AlanSummers]

I'm looking forward to responses about all of the various aspects of Don's post. 

All I will say is that I agree with everything. ;-)

Alan

I think it's rather clear that haiku can indeed be written well in English.  Though a different language from where haiku was created, haiku (in English) can, with the right poet, carry the poem well enough to retain its now famed name, haiku.

It's absolutely true that many folks writing in English simply miss the entire essence, structure and theories of haiku.  But, those aside, in any genre, haiku is established and often well written in English.

Baseball is played rather well in Japan too.  I believe they still call "strikes", "balls", "you're out of here" (LOL), "home run" ... and though in a different language, true baseball lives on in Japan.

Sonnets live on from Italy as well ... in English, French and a zillion other languages.

This is old.  And thank goodness, it's not going anywhere but behind the scenes with the intellectuals pondering whether haiku can exist in any language but Japanese. It does; it will always.

Furthermore, the Haiku Foundation would have to change its name to "the Short English Poetry Foundation" of which would exclude a zillion other folks around the globe that do not read, write or speak English.   ::) :P :o 8)

Haiku is no longer exclusive and hasn't been for quite a long time.  So, it's time to accept where it is and begin to study Japanese techniques of writing such poems so that the integrity of them will not be lost.  There is skill in writing haiku; there are requirements; haiku, like the game monopoly, has rules of engagement.  We cannot escape that, change the rules and/or bend the art form beyond recognition either.  There is some inherent responsibility for the poets to live up to if they indeed want to continue calling the short poem haiku - in any language.

Instead of bantering about whether we can do it or not or what it should be called, I believe we should spend more time studying the Japanese ways and improve our skills at writing haiku in every regard. There is no argument.  It is already called haiku worldwide.  It's too late to change.  It has its own momentum.  It's this momentum we need to deal with.  Alan has it dead on.  Without us, without authentic haiku in the English language, the comic poets win - worldwide; then, the genre haiku (in English) will be ruined forever.

We are the caretakers.  We need to take that role of responsibility and do it right in any language.  

By the way, I also do not like the words ELH - English Language Haiku (I used to be for the idea but no longer).  I believe it is degrading of our work and the work of others who speak other languages than English.  We cannot and do not have to add the language as a preface to our artform, no matter where we're from or what we speak.  We write haiku.  That's it.  :)

Happy haiku-ing.

:)

Revised for clarification of ELH position.