developing vocabulary

[John McManus]

I do agree with Don's comments about haiku not being exclusive, and that we as serious haiku writers must study the methods of how things have been done, and are currently being done in Japan.

As to rules of engagment, I think it's much less clear cut. From Richard Gilbert's gendai haiku web page. I recently learned the 'hai' in haiku literally means non-human (a statment made by Tsoubouchi Nenten) and that japanese haijin used different haigo (pen names) not because they bored of monikers easily, but rather it allowed them to take up different personalties and thus change their way of viewing the world. Tsoubochi also states his interest of writing from the perspective of a hippo, so that he becomes "a man like a hippo." Is this an approach that we in the west should take, and if it is'nt, then why not?  

I know that Scott Metz and Paul Pfleuger do the Masks journal, where poets are asked to use pen names, but in every other haiku journal that I can think of, there is no importance being placed on trying to change one's identity. Shiki, during his short life used over one hundered different haigo.

I'm not meaning to sound difficult or argumentative, but if we are to seriously analyse japanese techniques, and apply them to how we write haiku, then I fear alot of the rules of engagement that we have become familiar with are going to be thrown clean out the window.

warmest,
John    

[AlanSummers]

I agree with a lot of what John says, particularly as there has been an overdoing of the importance of the fourth line aka the author's identity.

I'm more interested if a haiku excites me, and not who wrote it.  Maybe roadrunner's Masks is a great idea to have, and similar ways of keeping the fourth line less of an issue.

Alan

I do agree with Don's comments about haiku not being exclusive, and that we as serious haiku writers must study the methods of how things have been done, and are currently being done in Japan.

As to rules of engagment, I think it's much less clear cut. From Richard Gilbert's gendai haiku web page. I recently learned the 'hai' in haiku literally means non-human (a statment made by Tsoubouchi Nenten) and that japanese haijin used different haigo (pen names) not because they bored of monikers easily, but rather it allowed them to take up different personalties and thus change their way of viewing the world. Tsoubochi also states his interest of writing from the perspective of a hippo, so that he becomes "a man like a hippo." Is this an approach that we in the west should take, and if it is'nt, then why not?  

I know that Scott Metz and Paul Pfleuger do the Masks journal, where poets are asked to use pen names, but in every other haiku journal that I can think of, there is no importance being placed on trying to change one's identity. Shiki, during his short life used over one hundered different haigo.

I'm not meaning to sound difficult or argumentative, but if we are to seriously analyse japanese techniques, and apply them to how we write haiku, then I fear alot of the rules of engagement that we have become familiar with are going to be thrown clean out the window.

warmest,
John    

[Don Baird]

You've made excellent points here John.  I concur.  The more we learn of the Japanese ways the better our haiku will be; the more we know about the aesthetic tools the more our haiku will be likened to the Japanese tradition.  It is a dignity to uphold a tradition; in particular, it is an honor as well.

I would appreciate poets stop calling it ELH.  It isn't.  It is haiku and we should call it by its proper name.  However then, we need to live up to the aesthetics of haiku and learn more about kigo, yugen, zoka, ma, kireji, karumi et al ... to retain the essence of Japanese haiku the very best we can.  It is an obligation.

We hold Japan accountable for rules in baseball.  They have every right to hold us accountable to the rules and structure of haiku.  Whatever those rules may be, lets conntinue to learn about them, explore their theories, and write excellent haiku (in any language).

[chibi575]

Alan, Don, Gabi san

In a way, you're all supporting the "developing vocabulary".  I think ELH is part of that vocabulary.

Don, I take it you are changing your mind about ELH, and, in part, I agree with you in that ELH is not the "name" but I believe a stepping stone to other names for the derivatives and variations of transported haiku.

Gabi san, well... I think you mostly understand my heart and passion for haiku, because, I have relied on and embraced your insightful guide.

Alan, your energy and thoughtfulness is always welcome, even if you feel this a "fool's errand".

I think the point of language dependency I've tried to emphasize, has been side-stepped.  If Japanese re-write their haiku in English, what is it called?  If USAians re-write their poems in Japanese, what is it called?  This is in part a reason for "developing vocabulary".

It seems I must end the discussion here, but, it carries on elsewhere on its own.

Your impassioned replies are indicative of your love for this type of poetry.  Thank you.

The forensic focus for me has ended for now.

ciao...

[AlanSummers]

Hi Dennis,

I'm sorry to see you go now we've actually gained some interesting posts on this topic.

I don't think you personally are on a fool's errand, but possibly up to a million European/American participants who merely write comic verse or statements in 17 syllables and insist they are haiku or haikus [sic] are highly unlikely to join this debate, and engage in developing vocabularly.

I'm really not sure about calling haiku by Japanese people who write haiku in English, and non-Japanese who write haiku in English being called different things from Japanese people who write Japanese haiku in Japanese.  A sonnet is a sonnet, although I prefer sonnetti, is a sonnet. ;-)

Alan

Alan, Don, Gabi san

In a way, you're all supporting the "developing vocabulary".  I think ELH is part of that vocabulary.

Don, I take it you are changing your mind about ELH, and, in part, I agree with you in that ELH is not the "name" but I believe a stepping stone to other names for the derivatives and variations of transported haiku.

Gabi san, well... I think you mostly understand my heart and passion for haiku, because, I have relied on and embraced your insightful guide.

Alan, your energy and thoughtfulness is always welcome, even if you feel this a "fool's errand".

I think the point of language dependency I've tried to emphasize, has been side-stepped.  If Japanese re-write their haiku in English, what is it called?  If USAians re-write their poems in Japanese, what is it called?  This is in part a reason for "developing vocabulary".

It seems I must end the discussion here, but, it carries on elsewhere on its own.

Your impassioned replies are indicative of your love for this type of poetry.  Thank you.

The forensic focus for me has ended for now.

ciao...

[Don Baird]

I believe this ELH point of view has emersed us into a lightless tunnel of hypocrisy.  When the Japanese were first writing poetry, they used the Chinese language to do so.   It wasn't until later that the Japanese poets wrote their poetry in the Japanese language (which developed later).  When the Japanese began to write primarily in the Japanese language, the reference became "Japanese Language poetry" not dissimilar to what is being forced on English language poets of today.  But, what folks are not saying is that the JLP designation was soon to be ignored.  EHL needs to be soon ignored and haiku needs to be called what it is in any language - "haiku".

There are those today who insist on English speaking poets to continue to use such a designation as English Language Haiku, ELH.  My premise is that it isn't necessary to do so.  And it's the hypocrisy of the century in haiku and poetry in general to force the odd term ELH on anyone, especially if it was being done by someone who is actually Japanese!  For now, the most vocal folks pushing this concept on English speaking poets are other English speaking poets or at least, non Japanese poets.  I find that particularly interesting.  

Remember, Japanese poets originally wrote poetry primarily in Chinese.  As they switched language, over time, they began new collections of poetry in their own language.

Again, I ask all haiku poets to stop referencing our work as ELH or any other designation than haiku.  At the same time, I also suggest that English speaking haijin intensely study the Japanese ways and style of haiku in order to carry haiku forward into the world of non English speaking poetry while simultaneously retaining the integrity of the Japanese ways.  It's called respect.

Vocabulary: haiku, kigo, kireji, ma, yugen, zoka.  There is no reason why non-Japanese poets cannot use Japanese words as part of their vocabulary.  They are easy enough to say and it keeps the thought alive that we are indeed writing a historical style of the Japanese culture.  

Just my thoughts.

Don

ps ...  "If Japanese re-write their haiku in English, what is it called?  If USAians re-write their poems in Japanese, what is it called?  This is in part a reason for "developing vocabulary"." chibi

Answer:  it's called a translation. Otherwise, it is haiku.  The need to change Japanese terms into other languages is a frivolous waste of time.  It also distances foreign writers of haiku from the history and cultural ambience that needs to be retained, actually.  It's important for foreign poets to understand the words and concepts the Japanese use in order to keep from straying from the integrity of haiku and its principles.  haiku, kigo, kireji, ma, yugen, zoka, and all the rest need to be studied intensely, as I've mentioned.  How we reference those skills later might not matter, also.  For now, while we learn more about the haiku ways of Japan, the Japanese terms should continue to be used.

[chibi575]

Ah... a missive, my apology to John.

To try to answer your question as to what I feel haiku is or is not, let me say, I adhere to Shiki sama's coinage.  Study Shiki, you study the core of "haiku".  I do not have a definition other.

If you study Shiki, you may and should take your time.  In truth, I am not at the end of my exploration.

The definitive link between haiku and hokku (its root) is the Japanese language and literature and that I contend makes haiku haiku.

Let me try to make my position clear.  It IS the language that determines the literary genre as Shiki has supported, haiku is a legitimate and valid Japanese literary form.  It is history that this form was transported to the west with name intact.  History is in error.  Will that change?  I hope so.  History has been in error before and has taken eons to change.  We are but slightly less than 100 years in the transportation of haiku to the USA.  Will it change in my life-time, I care not, but, I have faith eventually history will correct the error.  In a way, it matters not to my writing.  I simply reserve to the right to rankle...  ;D

I do feel that this my concludes any outstanding direct questions being answered.  Sorry, John, for my missive.

[Don Baird]

I'm not meaning to sound difficult or argumentative, but if we are to seriously analyse japanese techniques, and apply them to how we write haiku, then I fear alot of the rules of engagement that we have become familiar with are going to be thrown clean out the window.

warmest,
John    

Sorry John, I meant to respond to this more specifically earlier. 

Yes, it's true.  And, it's needed.  If we are going to write haiku with the utmost integrity, we need to write it by Japanese rules of engagement, in any language.  Non Japanese poets should not take someone's art form and randomly change it because of want.  I sincerely believe it is imperative to respect the haiku art form to the highest degree and then go about writing the finest haiku that we can. 

Our haiku will improve as our "true knowledge" of haiku history and practices are more adequately understood.  We need to study kigo, kireji, ma, yugen, zoka, karumi and so forth in order to write haiku in the wonderful tradition of the Japanese ways.  I understand that we may fall short because we are not of the Japanese language, heritage, culture and/or traditions.  But we shouldn't fall short for lack of integrity.  It's integrity that we must keep while we remain in pursuit of haiku poetry and its practices, in my opinion.

A pointed article on the subject of kigo and Japanese aesthetics can be read here:

http://simplyhaiku.theartofhaiku.com/summer-2011/features/to-kigo-or-not-to-kigo.html

While the delivery is moderately unforgiving, the general point that Robert is making is spot on. And, possibly we need his kind of shake up to protect the haiku way of Japan in non Japanese cultures.  He has my attention!

Just some more thoughts ... as my friend chibi says, I'm just "wrankling" a bit.  :)

Don

[Gabi Greve]

As far as kigo are concerned, I can only say ... ask me ! :D

I try for many years now to introduce Japanese culture via its kigo, since from my very first meeting with a saijiki many years ago, it looked to me like a door to an unknown world ... 

And I am still on the discovery trip !

The simple translation of the word SAKURA as cherry blossom does not bring much of the deeper meaning the word has when used in Japanese poetry.

So, let us continue to walk the walk to the sources of haiku . . .

Gabi
.

[John McManus]

Hi Gabi, the hon'i of kigo is a very interesting aspect of haiku composition, but I am wondering what are your personal thoughts on poets like Ban'ya Natsuishi, who regularly and intentionally does not use kigo (or as he likes to call them keywords)?

warmest,
John   

[Gabi Greve]

We see a lot on TV about the gendai poets and how they struggle to be something special (like the hippo Tsubouchi Nenten ... and the ageing WOLF Kaneko Tohta.)
They show  a strong influence back from the American haiku attempts and Western philosophy.

Personally, I prefere traditional Japanese haiku as promoted by Inahata Teiko, president of the Japan Traditional Haiku Association, because personally I like Japanese culture before the influence of the West.
I guess I should have been born in the Edo period.  8)

Gabi

.

[John McManus]

Thanks Gabi, for filling me in on your preferences.

The reason I asked was because in order for writers in any genre to be relevant to the times they live, do they not need to be modern and  perhaps even futuristic at times in their thoughts and practices?

warmest,
John



     

[Gabi Greve]

Hi John,
I guess there are two or more aspects,
you can be futuristic, and individualistic, and Western-oriented ...
or as a traditional haiku poet
you can uphold the tradition, try to be one with the moment (loose your individualistic ego approach) and be more Eastern-oriented.

Japan is wide open on both sides (but somehow, lately, there is a general trend after all the Meiji-innovations and Westernization

back to the good old Japan (whatever that means) .
(girls may now wear yukata in the office, because it is cooler in summer ... )

It is fascinating to live here, with Kabuki and Opera,
with the beez and the butterflies and a flying pope for good measure.

Enjoy your haiku life!
Gabi
.

[AlanSummers]

Some incredibly fine arguments here, but without an argumentative tone, which is great.

For me, haiku is a fast moving and evolving form and we might as well say that Christianity was only intended for Jewish people, that the Sonnet should only be written by Italians in Italian etc... etc...

We should remember that Canute actually didn't try to rule the waves and try to turn them back, but was showing his bureaucrats and administrators how ridiculous an idea it was to hold back progress.  

As Shiki incorporated a number of Western art and poetic techniques, I don't think of haiku in Shiki's time as purely a Japanese construct, because the doors were opened to the West.  Shiki made sure that haiku survived, and also raised it again to an artform, and one accessible to people from all walks of life.

I also feel it's actually a poet's duty to look at everything, including any literature from any country, and use it, pretty much like a magpie, or re Bill Manhire:

Bill Manhire was talking a while ago (and in his poem On Originality) about not only stealing from your literary forebears, but killing them off too. Eventually the aim is to use them to make better art (at least more relevant to contemporary audiences) at which point you have successfully killed them off.


ON ORIGINALITY

Poets, I want to follow them all,
out of the forest into the city
or out of the city into the forest.

The first one I throttle.
I remove his dagger
and tape it to my ankle in a shop doorway.
Then I step into the street
picking my nails.

I have a drink with a man
who loves young women.
Each line is a fresh corpse.

There is a girl with whom we make friends.
As he bends over her body
to remove the clothing
I slip the blade between his ribs.

Humming a melody, I take his gun.
I knot his scarf carelessly at my neck, and

I trail the next one into the country.
On the bank of a river I drill
a clean hole in his forehead.

Moved by poetry
I put his wallet in a plain envelope
and mail it to the widow.

I pocket his gun.
This is progress.
For instance, it is nearly dawn.

Now I slide a gun into the gun
and go out looking.

It is a difficult world.
Each word is another bruise.

This is my nest of weapons.
This is my lyrical foliage.


Bill Manhire

Bill Manhire reading his poem:
http://www.thearts.co.nz/artist_page.php&aid=40&type=video&video_id=40

If you ever hear of Bill Manhire visiting your neck of the woods (he's international) do meet him.  He has an engaging manner and a terrific sense of humor.

EDIT REASON: To add Bill Manhire's reading of On Originality, and clear up a mispelling.

[John McManus]

Gabi, I am all for upholding tradition, but could this desire to honour the traditional prejudice haiku poets and readers against writing and reading poems that are firmly outside the traditional schools of thought?

Would it not be best to read and write a bit of everything in moderation? 

Alan will probably be able to say alot more than I on the matter, but I was under the impression that Basho was an incredibly modern thinker. I wonder what he would have made of the gendai poets?

warmest,
John