Lost and Found in Translation

[Lorin]

I think it's time for another article (or even book) on kigo. 

I love discussion on kigo, but we are continuously told we can not only not do it, but we shouldn't even attempt it.

Even young and famous Madoka Mayuzumi is telling us that without kigo, a poem cannot be a haiku.  But then what is a kigo if someone who is Japanese (and in Japan) creates a new seasonal reference, is that also not a kigo?

Alan

Alan, as far as I know, a 'kigo' is only a kigo if it's listed in a a major saijiki, along with the haiku which the kigo appears in. Unless the compilers of saijiki are also the haijin who create the new kigo (& this could very well happen!) then the aspiring creator of new kigo
would need to wait for the official recognition in order for his/her seasonal reference to become a kigo. Once it's in, it is officially a kigo, for all of Japan.

Some groups in English-speaking countries, or regions of the larger countries, have made their own 'kigo' lists, usually based on translations & mistranslations of Japanese kigo with a few local seasonal words or phrases thrown in, or words and phrases adapted from eg. the native peoples of such countries, such as 'hunger moon'.

Some have not. I quote from John Bird's sensible essay, 'Coming Clean on Kigo':

" And who may elevate a word to the status of 'Australian kigo'? An Hungarian tourist? The local cloudcatchers haiku group? Does AHS have the interest, expertise and clout to arbitrate?"

http://users.mullum.com.au/jbird/dreaming/ozku-about-kigo.html



- Lorin

[AlanSummers]

Hi Lorin,

I think it's time for another article (or even book) on kigo. 

I love discussion on kigo, but we are continuously told we can not only not do it, but we shouldn't even attempt it.

Even young and famous Madoka Mayuzumi is telling us that without kigo, a poem cannot be a haiku.  But then what is a kigo if someone who is Japanese (and in Japan) creates a new seasonal reference, is that also not a kigo?

Alan

Alan, as far as I know, a 'kigo' is only a kigo if it's listed in a a major saijiki, along with the haiku which the kigo appears in. Unless the compilers of saijiki are also the haijin who create the new kigo (& this could very well happen!) then the aspiring creator of new kigo
would need to wait for the official recognition in order for his/her seasonal reference to become a kigo. Once it's in, it is officially a kigo, for all of Japan.

Some groups in English-speaking countries, or regions of the larger countries, have made their own 'kigo' lists, usually based on translations & mistranslations of Japanese kigo with a few local seasonal words or phrases thrown in, or words and phrases adapted from eg. the native peoples of such countries, such as 'hunger moon'.

Some have not. I quote from John Bird's sensible essay, 'Coming Clean on Kigo':

" And who may elevate a word to the status of 'Australian kigo'? An Hungarian tourist? The local cloudcatchers haiku group? Does AHS have the interest, expertise and clout to arbitrate?"

http://users.mullum.com.au/jbird/dreaming/ozku-about-kigo.html

- Lorin

I am confused.  You mention only Queensland Strine yet you are from Victoria?  Okay, next, I'm beginning to wonder if chibi and Mark Harris are right, going by what you say.

We don't do haiku, cannot mention kigo, pretty much any other Japanese word, term, phrase, relating to haiku and haikai literature.

What we do is funny little very short terse prose wannabe poems.  Okay, I can live with that.

So the "kigo police" lol, I thought I and others only had to deal with the Haiku Police (in general), only say a kigo is a kigo if a small number of people allow a real seasonal reference with vertical axis, which we may not be able to say even though it's not a Japanese term, allow to be designated a kigo.  Wow, the parallels in other areas is intriguing. ;-)

Don't even get me going on what can be an Australian kigo. ;-)

Alan

[Mark Harris]

hey Alan, just want to say, before you "get going"

I think, for the reasons I mentioned above and more, that the seasonal references we use in elh don't correspond to kigo because elh doesn't benefit from the rich history, mutual understanding, and long and strong "vertical axis" of jlh. Don't know if that's a weakness or a strength; it's just different. Does it mean I think we can't learn from and reference and emulate (if we choose) japanese kigo? No.

and I have no problem calling elh haiku.

(you're quick, Alan, I edited some of the above before your answer. No real change in meaning, though)

[AlanSummers]

Thanks Mark, appreciate your reply. ;-)

Mark says:
"I think, for the reasons I mentioned above and more, that the seasonal references we use in elh don't correspond to kigo because elh doesn't benefit from the rich history and cultural context of jlh."

I actually, respectfully, disagree.  I think it may actually be a fallacy.  I'm in love with Japanese haiku (and pre haiku).  After all, isn't Basho called the Shakespeare of Japan. ;-)

The non-Japanese world (and we'll exclude ancient cultures of Korea and China) have an immense cultural background.  Indian culture is comparable to Japanese culture (as well as Chinese and Korean) and I feel they, in particular, have the opportunity to start the long road to their own pukka kigo before the Western world.

But we in the West, particularly the European bothered stock, have precedent in our own way, after all European stock isn't that simple, and much of it tracks back to leaving the heck away from the Great Wall. ;-)

Mark says:
"Does that mean I think we can't learn from and reference and emulate (if we choose) japanese kigo? No."

Absolutely!

We've only been going at the haiku since Shiki imported many Western techniques into Japanese haiku.  Okay, there is a move from Japanese haiku writers to dispense with the Western techniques absorbed into Japanese haiku, but there are many examples that can never go away.

I'm told Shakespeare really works well, if not better, in Klingon (which is a full language whether you like Star Trek or not). 

I'd actually be fascinated for anyone who is a trekker or a trekkie to translate good contemporary (or classic) haiku/hokku into Klingon, because many of the Victorianesque translations are something that should be excised.

Alan

[AlanSummers]

Spring would be traps, either animal traps or anti-personnel ones, which a lovely SAS attached officer showed me, gotta love those mercury switches. ;-)

So we got to excise kigo from our EL vocab, and it doesn't end there.  Interesting that chibi's argument grows ever stronger.  I always thought he had a point, though I'm rather fond of the haiku. 

Alan

[Gabi Greve]

The title of this post is
Kigo and Saijiki

The non-Japanese world (and we'll exclude ancient cultures of Korea and China) have an immense cultural background.  Indian culture is comparable to Japanese culture (as well as Chinese and Korean) and I feel they, in particular, have the opportunity to start the long road to their own pukka kigo before the Western world.
kigo is the soul of haiku (in another thread, I think)
Alan


Have a look at the India Saijiki to see the efforts of regional poets to introduce their culture throughout the six classical seasons.
http://indiasaijikiworlkhaiku.blogspot.com/

Have a look at the Kenya Saijiki (also some other tropical regions)
with four seasons and a lot of cultural keywords to reflect their daily realities in haiku
http://kenyasaijiki.blogspot.com/

These  are just two  examples to show that with a positive attitude,  co-operation and hard work of regional poets, regional saijiki can be compiled.

I want to thank all poets who have tried to incorporate new kigo in their regional haiku life.

I would like to encourage the THF to begin compiling the
Great American Haiku Heritage Saijiki!

Small beginnings are here
http://worldkigodatabase.blogspot.com/2006/02/north-america-saijiki.html

Gabi


.

[AlanSummers]

Thanks Gabi, what a terrific response!

I second that as I love American style haiku, and the culture behind America and American haiku.  After all don't the States and Japan share an equal love of baseball also immortalised in haiku? ;-)

Also, I'd really like a grounded British and Irish, or English, Welsh, Irish and Scottish series. ;-)

Alan

[John McManus]

That is a really good idea Alan. Just wondering though with all the regional accents and dialects in England and other parts of Britain whether there would have to be certain ground rules to establishing an ofiicial english or british kigo list 

[AlanSummers]

Gael seems to have accidently kickstarted it, and I know David Cobb has created a saijiki, although I haven't seen it in depth.

God forbid someone starting to control this.  I think a central point where people could add information would be great to start with. ;-)

Alan

[John McManus]

Is there no way of doing an official british saijiki through the BHS if the intention is to have an official and unified source.   

[AlanSummers]

David won the last Biennial Sasakawa Prize for Original Contributions in the Field of Haikai.  I wasn't a judge on this one, but I'd probably have voted for it.

Weblink:
http://www.haikusoc.ndo.co.uk/comp.html#bsh

If you are not a member, I recommend you join:
http://www.britishhaikusociety.org.uk/

You could apply to be attached to the committee and instigate this.  I'd like it to be open, a little like Gabi's, rather than something autocratic. 

If I was a multi-millionaire and there was someone of the quality like the lovely Bill Higginson, I'd gladly pay a generous life stipend for someone to put together something like this. 

Alas I'm only a jobbing poet (mostly haiku and renga/renku etc...) ;-)

But seriously, check it out with the BHS.

I really think culturally this could be an important document utilising the tool that kigo is, and even if it took fifty years or more, it's worth starting now.

Alan

[John McManus]

We could always get lucky Alan and one of us win the lottery (not that I ever play the bloody thing, but we can all dream of one day stumbling upon a winning ticket!)

I will check it out with the BHS, and see what comes of it.

There are some very interesting points being posted. Very educational for one as green as I.

[AlanSummers]

I think your greeness might be an advantage in many ways.  We should talk offlist about a possibility of a saijiki or at least a useful collection of place names, seasonal activities etc... via the BHS. 

Alan

[Gabi Greve]

David Cobb - Equinox Press
http://www.thomcobb.f2s.com/davidcobb/

Euro-Haiku by David Cobb
http://www.inpressbooks.co.uk/eurohaiku_david_cobb_i018739.aspx



Saijiki of Europe
http://europasaijiki.blogspot.com/


There are separate saijiki for various dialects of Japan,
so the same could be done for other countries.


Let me know if I can be of help.
(it is all volunteer work, I remember a friend promising to help with  a region of USA, then after a few contributions giving up because "it is so much clerical work involved" ... ).  ;D

Thanks for your positive attitude, Alan and John !

Gabi

[AlanSummers]

Hi Gabi,

We're contact you offlist as I think we've swayed from the original topic of Lost and Found in Translation.
But on the other hand, if we hadn't gone off topic, this project would not have happened, so thank you THF. ;-)

I've emailed you, and the project would have to be long term as it is unpaid, with no funding or grant.  My business is as a jobbing freelance poet (mostly with haiku and renga/renku) so I can only spend so much time.

But the project will happen! ;-)

Thanks so much for your passion, enthusiasm, and encouragement, and for John McManus's stepping into this project.

I think it will be baby steps because the project is enormous, but will show much raw material there is in the U.K. and Ireland over the last couple of thousand years or more. ;-) 

It's not ten thousand years I know, but I'm sure we will find plenty of material nonetheless.

Alan