Lost and Found in Translation

[Gabi Greve]

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More about Madoka Mayuzumi
and her talk in Brussels

http://wkdhaikutopics.blogspot.com/2010/11/mayuzumi-madoka.html

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[AlanSummers]

I was invited by the Japanese Embassy, although I wasn't able to go due to work, but she also gave a talk in London. 

I'd be interested to know if she wanted English-language haiku to be 5-7-5 English-language syllables, and only have a kigo from a Japanese saijiki?

Would anyone care to comment, or report on her visit instead?

Alan

p.s.  I'm a big big fan of her haiku by the way! ;-)

[John McManus]

I must confess I am unfamiliar with Ms. Mayuzumi and her work.

If she does want EL haiku to be 17 syllables with use of kigo from a saijiki then I think she is missing the point of multiculturalism within poetry, surely the beauty of english haiku is that we are able to put a different spin on what we perceive a haiku to be. Don't get me wrong I understand the need to aspire to the many virtues of what makes japanese haiku so wonderful, but not at the sake of ignoring our own culutral identities and afilliations.   

[Don Baird]

This section of her discussion is incredibly meaningful:

"In haiku, there is that empty space between the lines, which speaks at least as much as in the lines themselves. The writer will say the bare minimum -- and then, the educated reader will understand what has been said and what has not been said.

A haiku must have this elusive "blank" or space which expresses meaning as much as the words contained in the haiku. In translation, she called this the "literature of silence" or of "things unsaid" (in Japanese, yohaku 余白 ) -- but the educated reader would understand what had been left unsaid. Haiku is a joint undertaking between the author and the reader."

This "elusive blank space" is so important in composing fine haiku.  "literature of silence" is an immense thought and rather foreign to the western mind.  These are key ingredients that make the difference between writing average and superior haiku ... imho.

Don

[AlanSummers]

I agree with John's point wholeheartedly, and also with Don's pointing out the pointers for certain key aspects of haiku.

Gabi Greve attended the event in Brussels in Belgium, and as a Japanese speaker she may be able to clarify if the French are now expected to only compose 17 French syllable haiku.

I would be curious if she repeated the same demand in London, England and alas I was unable to go due to work pressures, and being a freelance.

Alan

[Gabi Greve]

Gabi Greve attended the event in Brussels in Belgium, and as a Japanese speaker she may be able to clarify if the French are now expected to only compose 17 French syllable haiku.

Dear Alan, if you read my entry carefully, you will notice that I did NOT attend the meeting in Brussels, nor in Paris, nor in London or elsewhere did I have the pleasure to meet Madoka sensei. (Only on Japanese TV, since I live in Japan, not Europe.)

She is in Paris since April 2010 as a Japanese government-designated "cultural envoy" .
She might be availabel to answer herself, through the Embassy in Paris?

Gabi

[AlanSummers]

Apologies Gabi, it sounded like you were there with Isabelle.

As someone who keeps the kigo database of haiku in languages other than just Japanese, what are your own opinions about syllable count in non-Japanese haiku.

Should French and English haiku be only 5-7-5 syllable constructs?

Alan

[Gabi Greve]

Should French and English haiku be only 5-7-5 syllable constructs?
Alan

Dear Alan and all,
you can read my detailed thoughts  to this old problem here

http://happyhaiku.blogspot.com/2000/07/theory-5-7-5.html

5-7-5 ... go shichi go ... in Japanese

short-long-short ... in other languages
(Unless 5 7 5  feels quite natural without padding.)

This is my simple advise for the problem of adapting the Japanese pattern of 5-7-5 beats to any other language.

A Japanese haiku comes in three sections:

kami go (the top five section)
naka shichi (the middle seven section)
shimo go (the lower five section)

Wheather to write this Japanese in one line or three lines or from top to bottom or from right to left ... depends on the paper you are given, independent of  the structure of the haiku.

The details are here:
http://happyhaiku.blogspot.com/2000/07/one-sentence-haiku.html


Hope it helps.
Gabi

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[AlanSummers]

Thanks for putting this up.  It's very useful, I'll put it up on the links page.

What do you think of Madoka Mayuzumi stating that the French should only write 5-7-5 syllables in their language (plus kigo); and does she say the same for English-language haiku, and for Romance haiku?

Alan

[Gabi Greve]

I am afraid I can not answer for Madoka sensei.

You have to ask her about the meaning of her words.
As I said, maybe the embassy in Paris will put you in contact ?

Gabi

[Don Baird]

@Gabi,

One of the aspects of writing ELH that I've been looking very carefully at these days is whether we should count : ; ... , – !  etc as beats when considering the meter of S/L/S or 5/7/5.

Example,

one string ...
a street man plays
for money

Line one is generally considered 2 syllables;  but, if you count the ellipsis, then you could say it is three.  The "ya" and other markers of such nature, are counted in Japanese haiku.  They are not words (per se) but sounds of accent, ma or space - for timing.  It seems, that the symbols being used to replace or emulate them in other languages, should be considered as syllables as well.  ?

This poem is a classic 2/3/2 beat (depending how you read it etc) that would become a 3/3/2 beat if the ellipsis was considered to be a ELH kireji.

Don

[Gabi Greve]

aaa, you are really going to make life complicated for the ELH poets, dear Don !  ;)

The two languages are just sooooo different

I guess counting a ! as one "beat" will not sit well with the ELH poets, I wonder what they think.

furu ike ya ..  that is normal haiku japanese, counting 5 (whatever), one for the kireji YA
marumi kana ... counts 2 for the kireji KANA
maru mogana .. counts 3 for the kireji MOGANA


old pond     - count 2
this old pond      - count 3
old pond -   ?how many for the -? take your pick !
old pond --  ?how many now ?? count two for the -- ?

old pond !  ?how many, since ! is a longer break than - ...  count two or three ?

I give up ...  for now   ;D   ;D.

Gabi

The Cut in Japanese Haiku

http://haikutopics.blogspot.com/2006/06/kireji.html
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[AlanSummers]

Don has a good point, as Japanese writing includes punctuation as written words not symbols as is common in English for instance.

Does a question mark become a beat or syllable counting exercise?  What do you count, the symbol ? or the word <question mark>.  How many beats, stresses, syllables are there in ? or question mark

I don't think it's complicated so much as not being made clear by those who demand seventeen syllables in whatever language system(s) you use.

Is number crunching more important than content?  Some Japanese women write tanka shorter than haiku, and some write haiku longer than tanka.  They are respected writers, so where does that leave us, and also where does that leave other Japanese writers who might not be aware of this?

Alan

[Lorin]

@Gabi,

One of the aspects of writing ELH that I've been looking very carefully at these days is whether we should count : ; ... , – !  etc as beats when considering the meter of S/L/S or 5/7/5.

Example,

one string ...
a street man plays
for money

Line one is generally considered 2 syllables;  but, if you count the ellipsis, then you could say it is three.  The "ya" and other markers of such nature, are counted in Japanese haiku.  They are not words (per se) but sounds of accent, ma or space - for timing.  It seems, that the symbols being used to replace or emulate them in other languages, should be considered as syllables as well.  ?

This poem is a classic 2/3/2 beat (depending how you read it etc) that would become a 3/3/2 beat if the ellipsis was considered to be a ELH kireji.

Don

Ha, Don.  ;D Of course a caesura mark, dash, points of ellipses, colon etc. can't count as sounds, like kireji do. They are not spoken, they are not sounds -- simple as that.

If you listen to regional English dialects around the world, you'll find that there are equivalents of kireji in English, though these are not formally recognised or formally designated: 'eh' , whether as question indicator or statement indicator is common to Queensland Australian English (and to some parts of Canada, I'm told). 'Innit' (with the 't' sounds disappearing in a glottal stop) is a common one in some parts of England. 'Like', and 'hum' are a couple with USA origins.

old pond eh
a frog jumps into
the sound of water

(Queensland English)

old pond innit
a frog jumps into
the sound of water

(London Cockney English?)

old pond like
a frog jumps into
the sound of water

(USA-originated, 'Beat' English' ?)

old pond hum
a frog jumps into
the sound of water

(USA-originated - wherever Gene Murtha comes from)

old pond ya-know
a frog.....

(USA & Australia)

old pond see
a frog jumps into....
(Australia and NZ)

old pond right
a frog...

(NZ & Australia)

old pond yunnerstan
a frog ...
( Mafia Movie English)

old pond yeah?
a frog...

(probably international English)

I'm sure there are many more. But we don't usually use these in written English and most of us wouldn't want to.

- Lorin

[Adam Traynor]

old pond lol
a frog...