Lost and Found in Translation

[Lorin]

Hi Lorin,

Alan, as far as I know, a 'kigo' is only a kigo if it's listed in a a major saijiki, along with the haiku which the kigo appears in. Unless the compilers of saijiki are also the haijin who create the new kigo (& this could very well happen!) then the aspiring creator of new kigo
would need to wait for the official recognition in order for his/her seasonal reference to become a kigo. Once it's in, it is officially a kigo, for all of Japan.

Some groups in English-speaking countries, or regions of the larger countries, have made their own 'kigo' lists, usually based on translations & mistranslations of Japanese kigo with a few local seasonal words or phrases thrown in, or words and phrases adapted from eg. the native peoples of such countries, such as 'hunger moon'.

Some have not. I quote from John Bird's sensible essay, 'Coming Clean on Kigo':

" And who may elevate a word to the status of 'Australian kigo'? An Hungarian tourist? The local cloudcatchers haiku group? Does AHS have the interest, expertise and clout to arbitrate?"

http://users.mullum.com.au/jbird/dreaming/ozku-about-kigo.html

- Lorin

I am confused.  You mention only Queensland Strine yet you are from Victoria?  Okay, next, I'm beginning to wonder if chibi and Mark Harris are right, going by what you say.

We don't do haiku, cannot mention kigo, pretty much any other Japanese word, term, phrase, relating to haiku and haikai literature.

What we do is funny little very short terse prose wannabe poems.  Okay, I can live with that.

So the "kigo police" lol, I thought I and others only had to deal with the Haiku Police (in general), only say a kigo is a kigo if a small number of people allow a real seasonal reference with vertical axis, which we may not be able to say even though it's not a Japanese term, allow to be designated a kigo.  Wow, the parallels in other areas is intriguing. ;-)

Don't even get me going on what can be an Australian kigo. ;-)

Alan

I'm confused now, Alan. Where have I mentioned Queensland 'Strine', or Queensland anything in this post? (or are you referring to my other post re kireji in response to Don, which was in jest though to make a real point, and I believe I gave quite a few examples from Australia as well as the distinctive Queensland 'eh'.) But in any case if I did want to mention Queensland 'Strine' or anything else, what's the fact that I live in Victoria got to do with it? I'm Australian, I've lived in FNQ, my haiku book was published by a Queensland Press (PostPressed- John Knight) Goodness, you live in England, yet mention Queensland quite a lot yourself.

I suggest you take your annoyance & frustration out on the real 'kigo police', not on me, but on those who are forever meddling in EL haiku, especially with beginners, telling them that what they write isn't haiku if it hasn't got a kigo and urging them to make up lists of 'kigo' without telling the whole story of what kigo is. Don't rely on what I say. Ask Gabi what it takes for a kigo to be recognised as such in Japan. Ask Gabi about hon'i. Read some of the contemporary Japanese haiku poets, such as Ban'ya Natsuishi:

"Season words indicate season. Take, for example, tsuyu (rainy season) which indicates the long summer rainy season, about the time when plums ripen. The reader associates it with high humidity and discomfort on the main island of Japan from June to July. However, in countries without tsuyu, the word's meaning is empty. Additionally, in areas without much rain, such as Hokkaido in Japan and Europe, the time for tsuyu is the peak of summer: with long daylight hours, and in some areas a summer festival is held.
Seasonal words, therefore, are keywords only expressing locality. That is because the unique climate of a particular area (like Japan, the U.S., or Europe) cannot be set as a standard for the world; it is merely one aspect of the global environment and of the diverse cultures in the world.
The Japanese inclination towards season words, including words indicating small animals and plants, came from animism: respecting spirits in not only human beings and animals, but also other elemental forms like rocks, water, fire, air, and the sun. Respecting and appreciating everything existing in nature have strongly and naturally endured in the Japanese' consciousness of the 20th century.
Of course all living things including animals, plants, and things in nature are not necessarily associated with seasons. Rather, some poets find intrinsic values and universality in them. Therefore, I have asserted and now would like to stress again that the term, "keyword" should be used to refer to both kigo (season words, expressing seasons) and muki (non-season words, expressing anything other than seasons)." (bolding mine)
http://www.worldhaiku.net/criticism/natsuishi1.html

If you want to shoot your mouth off, from your short and narrow experience of haiku in Australia, on what can be kigo for Australia, then go ahead. But I suggest that you at least read John Bird's thoughtful essays on the subject. There are some obvious contenders, of course , 'Australia Day' eg, and 'Anzac day' for both Australia and New Zealand, but I think that John Bird puts it plainly & succinctly enough:

"Perhaps we could get all Australians to standardise kigo on Canberra, our national capital; pigs might fly." - John Bird (of NSW, btw, who has lived & worked in Victoria as well as other places)

The Great Australian Saijiki, Ha. The Great American Saikjiki, ha. Canberra the standard for season in Australia? Washington the standard for season in the USA? Or perhaps Maine, being culturally older? What about those haiku poets from Texas, Georgia or Florida? When it's snowing in Washington, then it's snowing in South Carolina, by decree? D'you really think they'd all agree to that kind of centralisation?

Don't forget that there are no regional saijiki in Japan. One nation, one saijiki.

1.
Little japanese apple tree
saying quietly:
no need to go to Kyoto

Kenneth White - The Bodhi Notebook - in the southern Spring  (KW is a Scot, quite respected in France.)

Perhaps you can do it for England, because it is a smaller area, like Japan. Perhaps you can even get the Scots and the Irish to subscribe to your saijiki. Good luck.

I will continue to call EL haiku, haiku. If some want to be sarcastic and call it 'HA. I. KU <grin>' because it's not Japanese , then that's an annoying form of xenophobia to me, but I don't really care. It's been a loan word in English for some time and it will remain as such, just as English loan words in Japanese will remain as such. To keep those who don't believe that EL haiku is haiku happy, I will continue to refer to Japanese haiku as haiku, a foreign word, to make the distinction.

- Lorin

[Gabi Greve]

Don't forget that there are no regional saijiki in Japan. One nation, one saijiki.
Lorin

I am afraid I can not agree with this assessment.
But let this not lead to any further discussion.

Gabi
http://worldkigodatabase.blogspot.com/

[Lorin]

" (I'm aware that "moon jellyfish" has been suggested as an Australian "kigo")." - Mark

As far as I know, Mark, I was the first Australian to use 'moon jellies' and 'moon jellyfish' in haiku ( I might be wrong, but I had not seen any 'moon jellies' or 'moon jellyfish ' haiku in English before I did) The 'moon jellies' one was posted on two forums some years ago, but not published for until Ron Moss submitted it last year as part of a haiga :

http://www.dailyhaiga.org/haiga-archives/548/-breathing-by-lorin-ford-australia

Another, written last year, will be published in the next Shamrock Haiku Journal., in March.

But although I know when the bulk of these wash in (after getting worn out breeding, I believe) in Victoria and Tasmania, I know I have never suggested it as an Australian 'kigo'.

I might suggest that it's a mid-to-late Summer seasonal reference for Southern Australia, just as I might suggest that stingers are a Spring-Summer seasonal reference for FNQ. I would never suggest that anything apart from some social event occasions such as Australia Day, Anzac Day and Melbourne Cup Day (yes!  ;D) might even approach having some resemblance to kigo.

Naturally , I 'm wondering who it is who might've suggested that 'moon jellyfish' is an "Australian kigo".

Gabi, in all these years, you have only spoken about the saijiki centralised on Tokyo (and previously, on Kyoto). You have never once mentioned, not even hinted,  until now that Japan has various regional saijiki. If these exist, would you please give details? And if these exist, which of the various regional saijiki do Western translators use?

- Lorin

[chibi575]

 ???
Don't forget that there are no regional saijiki in Japan. One nation, one saijiki. <== Lorin

Lorin, I believe as a matter of fact there are regional sections to the a Japanese saijiki.  The Japanese are well aware of, for example, that hanami (cherry blossom viewing) happens at different times in different regions and at different altitudes and climes.  Therefore, it is important in understanding Japanese haiku, from what region the poem has been written when using "hanami" as kigo.  There, also, are regional kigo with encyclopedic explanation and example.  

I believe, also, there is a process by which a word/phrase candidate is accepted officially to the saijiki (sometimes there is considerable debate).  I am not completely familiar with the process, but, I suspect it is similar to EL dictionary commitiees for sanctioning words and definitions to be included in an official unabridged dictionary.

I suppose you have seen a Japanese saijiki?  Big thing... usually a hardcover and expensive; but, now one is available completely electronically.  I would venture to say that Dr. Gabi Greve is a better source for what is in a Japanese saijiki as I have only seen one briefly in my stay in Japan and only the abridged pocket editions on ginko with other haiku writers in Japan.  Unfortunately, my reading skill for Japanese is limited to mostly recognizing "の", so, I relied on their patient and gracious translations/transliterations and paraverses.

This may seem mean spirited (my apology), but if you are not concerned about kigo and what is potentially lost and found in translations (of Japanese poetry) for the lack of understanding kigo, then, I am very confused about your comments? If you are truly not concerned, then silence would be a powerful verification of that feeling.

To be honest, I am continuely questioning direction and goal in the "haiku community" throughout the world... it is my curse and my blessing.  I love haiku.

As to seminal work and effort on gathering and presenting kigo and seasonal reference words and phrases, my hat is off to Dr. Gabi; and, her work would be a great foundation to use for the saijiki-kigo "idea" throughout the world.

(An aside to Gabi sama -- I am gathering more information on indigenous words and phrases (potentially to qualify as candidates) in the Southeastern region of the USA.  I have asked a writers group, The Living Poets Society, of which I am a member, to give example of such words and phrases.  I hope to have some reply at our next monthly meeting.)

Yours in poetry.

Ciao... Chibi

[Lorin]

This may seem mean spirited (my apology), but if you are not concerned about kigo and what is potentially lost and found in translations (of Japanese poetry) for the lack of understanding kigo, then, I am very confused about your comments? If you are truly not concerned, then silence would be a powerful verification of that feeling.

To be honest, I am continuely questioning direction and goal in the "haiku community" throughout the world... it is my curse and my blessing.  I love haiku.


Ciao... Chibi

Hi Dennis, don't get me wrong, it's not that I'm not concerned with kigo. I am quite passionately involved (all too often) and I'm also continually thinking about it. I haven't got to the bottom of it all. I think Gabi's database is a great thing and the most reliable source I have to learn about kigo (Japanese) from , & also to correct notions of particular "kigo" words that have been mistranslated into English, but which people use just because they're on an EL kigo list.

I don't have Japanese. I rely on translations and the information passed onto me from various sources, including Gabi.

What I don't believe in is the creation of 'instant kigo'. I don't believe that kigo can be 'created' for the English language. Season words, yes. Keywords, yes. But not kigo, in any real sense of kigo. Kigo are based on centuries upon centuries of Japanese literature (and founded from seasonal references in Chinese literature before taking on their specific Japanese nature) They are not simply season words, words which evoke a season, but a coded way of referencing old literature and even mood.

Check out the last 'seashell game' thread again. Fay A's 'ants out of a hole' doesn't just indicate Spring, but also a mood, 'The Joy of Spring'. Kigo are a complex code system.

What I am against is the unnatural forcing of kigo without the culture, something I believe should evolve, if it is going to. I don't believe that Joe Blow from Darwin or Mary Smith from Hobart or Me from Melbourne can get together with a few mates from their poetry group and draw up a list of 'Australian kigo'. Who are they speaking for? Better that we observe the seasons etc around them and write poems. One day, those poems  might be the foundation for Australian kigo, who knows? But that , surely, is up to future generations of readers. A list of seasonal keywords from their region would be a better & more workable thing, though less important sounding than a saijiki, that's how I see it.

We already get complaints from the Japanese that Westerners don't use kigo properly, don't understand kigo, and I think that for most of us, that's the case. So until we have our own authentically, why fake it?

- Lorin

[Gabi Greve]

Kigo are based on centuries upon centuries of Japanese literature (and founded from seasonal references in Chinese literature before taking on their specific Japanese nature)
Lorin


I do not agree with this statement.
for example

reiboo, air conditioning ... has not been around for centuries, at least not here in Japan.
http://worldkigodatabase.blogspot.com/2010/05/air-conditioning-reiboo.html

What it takes for any word to become a KIGO, in Japan and elsewhere, I guess, is the fact that someone uses it in haiku.

And then someone else to pick it up from there and add it to a saijiki.

There are many "season words" in Japan which are NOT (or not yet)  kigo for haiku ...

Gabi
.

[Lorin]

OK, Gabi...'air conditioning' is a kigo.  :D Obviously, air conditioning has not been around for centuries.

Yet air conditioning could not be added to a saijiki, couldn't be a kigo, if that kigo culture didn't already exist beforehand, and that kigo culture is centuries old and provides the base on which the current monolithic kigo structure is built. 'Air conditioning' as a 'late Summer' is an addition, from relatively recent times.

Who decided that 'air conditioning' is a kigo? Why is it a kigo for 'late Summer', since office buildings, movie theatres, large hotels and department stores, eg, world-wide use air-conditioning all year round? Possibly because enough poems were published with 'air conditioning' in the context of 'late Summer'?

How many new kigo have been added to the 'big saijiki' in the past 110 years? Perhaps there isn't a lot left in Japan that's not a kigo these days (I don't know, only speculate)

We do need to know about Japanese kigo, and I truly appreciate your work in translating it. But I see no basis for building an Australian saijiki, let alone an EL saijiki, until we have a large body of work to draw upon.

"What it takes for any word to become a KIGO, in Japan and elsewhere, I guess, is the fact that someone uses it in haiku.

And then someone else to pick it up from there and add it to a saijiki." - Gabi

Well, at least the horse & the cart seem to be the right way around there. How different it would be for me to declare that 'moon jellies' is a late Summer kigo for all of Australia? I claim that it is a late-summer seasonal reference for Victoria and Tasmania, possibly also for SA and NSW, but no more. Gradually, over time, when others write & have 'moon jellyfish' haiku written & published, we will get an idea of whether it has kigo potential or not. (Considering that the oceans are warming and that this favours the proliferation of jellyfish of all kinds, it might end up being a different seasonal indicator in 50 years or so)

- Lorin

[Lorin]

ps... since Dave's title at the beginning of this thread is 'Lost and Found in Translation', I don't see that the discussion about kigo in relation to EL haiku is irrelevant. Part of the problem with kigo, when related to EL haiku, is that it was translated into English simply as 'season word', when in fact 'season word' is inadequate in conveying the full function of kigo in Japanese haiku, even if 'season word' is a literal translation.

As Gabi herself is wont to say, "kigo is not the weather report".

- Lorin

[John McManus]

Lorin, I can see by your posts you are very passionate on this subject.

I am not going to pretend to have a broad working knowledge on the inner workings of kigo. What I was thinking when I was discussing with Alan the possibilities of a unified british saijiki was if we were going to try to compile a saijiki it would be best to do it through an official body like the BHS and discussed at greater length by my elder and betters so that we may kickstart our own poetic traditons within british haiku instead of getting accused of stealing/borrowing/imitating or corrupting others.

   

[AlanSummers]

Hi Lorin,

Not quite sure what all this is about.  We've all moved on from sarcasm and/or irony. It proved a useful vehicle for something useful to come out.

A group of us got to thinking about kigo, or seasonal reference etc... and a number of us are thinking of this as a useful collating tool, regardless of opinion elsewhere.

Alan

Hi Lorin,

Alan, as far as I know, a 'kigo' is only a kigo if it's listed in a a major saijiki, along with the haiku which the kigo appears in. Unless the compilers of saijiki are also the haijin who create the new kigo (& this could very well happen!) then the aspiring creator of new kigo
would need to wait for the official recognition in order for his/her seasonal reference to become a kigo. Once it's in, it is officially a kigo, for all of Japan.

Some groups in English-speaking countries, or regions of the larger countries, have made their own 'kigo' lists, usually based on translations & mistranslations of Japanese kigo with a few local seasonal words or phrases thrown in, or words and phrases adapted from eg. the native peoples of such countries, such as 'hunger moon'.

Some have not. I quote from John Bird's sensible essay, 'Coming Clean on Kigo':

" And who may elevate a word to the status of 'Australian kigo'? An Hungarian tourist? The local cloudcatchers haiku group? Does AHS have the interest, expertise and clout to arbitrate?"

http://users.mullum.com.au/jbird/dreaming/ozku-about-kigo.html

- Lorin

I am confused.  You mention only Queensland Strine yet you are from Victoria?  Okay, next, I'm beginning to wonder if chibi and Mark Harris are right, going by what you say.

We don't do haiku, cannot mention kigo, pretty much any other Japanese word, term, phrase, relating to haiku and haikai literature.

What we do is funny little very short terse prose wannabe poems.  Okay, I can live with that.

So the "kigo police" lol, I thought I and others only had to deal with the Haiku Police (in general), only say a kigo is a kigo if a small number of people allow a real seasonal reference with vertical axis, which we may not be able to say even though it's not a Japanese term, allow to be designated a kigo.  Wow, the parallels in other areas is intriguing. ;-)

Don't even get me going on what can be an Australian kigo. ;-)

Alan

I'm confused now, Alan. Where have I mentioned Queensland 'Strine', or Queensland anything in this post? (or are you referring to my other post re kireji in response to Don, which was in jest though to make a real point, and I believe I gave quite a few examples from Australia as well as the distinctive Queensland 'eh'.) But in any case if I did want to mention Queensland 'Strine' or anything else, what's the fact that I live in Victoria got to do with it? I'm Australian, I've lived in FNQ, my haiku book was published by a Queensland Press (PostPressed- John Knight) Goodness, you live in England, yet mention Queensland quite a lot yourself.

I suggest you take your annoyance & frustration out on the real 'kigo police', not on me, but on those who are forever meddling in EL haiku, especially with beginners, telling them that what they write isn't haiku if it hasn't got a kigo and urging them to make up lists of 'kigo' without telling the whole story of what kigo is. Don't rely on what I say. Ask Gabi what it takes for a kigo to be recognised as such in Japan. Ask Gabi about hon'i. Read some of the contemporary Japanese haiku poets, such as Ban'ya Natsuishi:

"Season words indicate season. Take, for example, tsuyu (rainy season) which indicates the long summer rainy season, about the time when plums ripen. The reader associates it with high humidity and discomfort on the main island of Japan from June to July. However, in countries without tsuyu, the word's meaning is empty. Additionally, in areas without much rain, such as Hokkaido in Japan and Europe, the time for tsuyu is the peak of summer: with long daylight hours, and in some areas a summer festival is held.
Seasonal words, therefore, are keywords only expressing locality. That is because the unique climate of a particular area (like Japan, the U.S., or Europe) cannot be set as a standard for the world; it is merely one aspect of the global environment and of the diverse cultures in the world.
The Japanese inclination towards season words, including words indicating small animals and plants, came from animism: respecting spirits in not only human beings and animals, but also other elemental forms like rocks, water, fire, air, and the sun. Respecting and appreciating everything existing in nature have strongly and naturally endured in the Japanese' consciousness of the 20th century.
Of course all living things including animals, plants, and things in nature are not necessarily associated with seasons. Rather, some poets find intrinsic values and universality in them. Therefore, I have asserted and now would like to stress again that the term, "keyword" should be used to refer to both kigo (season words, expressing seasons) and muki (non-season words, expressing anything other than seasons)." (bolding mine)
http://www.worldhaiku.net/criticism/natsuishi1.html

If you want to shoot your mouth off, from your short and narrow experience of haiku in Australia, on what can be kigo for Australia, then go ahead. But I suggest that you at least read John Bird's thoughtful essays on the subject. There are some obvious contenders, of course , 'Australia Day' eg, and 'Anzac day' for both Australia and New Zealand, but I think that John Bird puts it plainly & succinctly enough:

"Perhaps we could get all Australians to standardise kigo on Canberra, our national capital; pigs might fly." - John Bird (of NSW, btw, who has lived & worked in Victoria as well as other places)

The Great Australian Saijiki, Ha. The Great American Saikjiki, ha. Canberra the standard for season in Australia? Washington the standard for season in the USA? Or perhaps Maine, being culturally older? What about those haiku poets from Texas, Georgia or Florida? When it's snowing in Washington, then it's snowing in South Carolina, by decree? D'you really think they'd all agree to that kind of centralisation?

Don't forget that there are no regional saijiki in Japan. One nation, one saijiki.

1.
Little japanese apple tree
saying quietly:
no need to go to Kyoto

Kenneth White - The Bodhi Notebook - in the southern Spring  (KW is a Scot, quite respected in France.)

Perhaps you can do it for England, because it is a smaller area, like Japan. Perhaps you can even get the Scots and the Irish to subscribe to your saijiki. Good luck.

I will continue to call EL haiku, haiku. If some want to be sarcastic and call it 'HA. I. KU <grin>' because it's not Japanese , then that's an annoying form of xenophobia to me, but I don't really care. It's been a loan word in English for some time and it will remain as such, just as English loan words in Japanese will remain as such. To keep those who don't believe that EL haiku is haiku happy, I will continue to refer to Japanese haiku as haiku, a foreign word, to make the distinction.

- Lorin

[AlanSummers]

Hi Chibi,

I have to agree!  Gabi has been patiently gathering a massive tome of information (which I hope is backed up on a spare harddrive <grin>).

I know from Bill Higginson what a massive undertaking The Haiku Seasons Project was (an understatement from me), and what he did in such a short time to bring out those two books.

Setting aside arguments over kigo, Gabi's resource is a great source of information, and encourages both seasoned haiku writers and people who derive great benefit from haiku in general.

Gabi also does a lot of other great work behind the scenes. ;-)

Alan

To be honest, I am continuely questioning direction and goal in the "haiku community" throughout the world... it is my curse and my blessing.  I love haiku.

As to seminal work and effort on gathering and presenting kigo and seasonal reference words and phrases, my hat is off to Dr. Gabi; and, her work would be a great foundation to use for the saijiki-kigo "idea" throughout the world.

(An aside to Gabi sama -- I am gathering more information on indigenous words and phrases (potentially to qualify as candidates) in the Southeastern region of the USA.  I have asked a writers group, The Living Poets Society, of which I am a member, to give example of such words and phrases.  I hope to have some reply at our next monthly meeting.)

Yours in poetry.

Ciao... Chibi

[AlanSummers]

Hi John,

Yes, you can see we are all passionate.  If something doesn't happen now, it won't happen. ;-)  As in Japan it took centuries, it can only happen elsewhere if we start as well.

It has already happened, e.g. David Cobb's compilation (well-respected around the world):

The Biennial Sasakawa Prize for Original Contributions in the Field of Haikai

This award was administered by the British Haiku Society with funds provided by The Great Britain Sasakawa Foundation. The award came to an end with the 2003 Prize, which was won by David Cobb, for his study of English Seasonal images. David writes: "It's intended as a working document, in which I put forward a number of familiar words/concepts that might work for us as the accepted kigo do for the Japanese. Some of these are illustrated by haiku from a number of different British writers, and some are left blank for others to illustrate with the best examples they can find at any time in the future." David visited Japan and gave talks on the progress of his project in October 2004.

Thanks John, for stepping in, and I feel someone fresh to the scene can be an invaluable enabler, to move this forward. ;-)

Alan

Lorin, I can see by your posts you are very passionate on this subject.

I am not going to pretend to have a broad working knowledge on the inner workings of kigo. What I was thinking when I was discussing with Alan the possibilities of a unified british saijiki was if we were going to try to compile a saijiki it would be best to do it through an official body like the BHS and discussed at greater length by my elder and betters so that we may kickstart our own poetic traditons within british haiku instead of getting accused of stealing/borrowing/imitating or corrupting others.

   

[cat]

Hello, all,

I have been following this thread with interest, although I'm too stupid to contribute to the conversation in any worthwhile or meaningful way.  But something has been nagging at me, so I thought I'd ask a question.

If kigo has a cultural aspect (and from reading this thread, it appears that at least some haiku practitioners think it does), how is kigo to ever be developed in the immigrant countries (I'm thinking the US, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, and even England herself) when there is such a "melting pot" (as we used to say back in the day) of cultures, compared to Japan, which was closed to most foreigners and hence outside influence for what, 200 years?  From where is a consistent viewpoint that would allow the compilation of culturally-agreed-upon kigo going to arise?  Am I missing something here?

Just wondering.

cat

[AlanSummers]

Good points as usual Cat! ;-)

re England, it's always been a melting pot, since the Celts arrived, then the Angles, Saxons, vikings first generation, vikings second generation, more vikings a la Rollo's mates, and descendents (William etc..)  from Normandy, plus immigration from traders from the lowlands 10th century onwards.

I think the same can be said for any country really.  India was invaded by the Mongols after all (aka Moghuls). Then the Ottoman Empire took over from the Byzantine Empire (the Roman Empire still officially exists today, but mostly collapsed 1453 and 1461 A.D.).

I seriously think in the 21st Century we have to think differently.  Also someone and his mate, in Japan, must have started something several centuries ago, which then attracted a third bloke (it was very male orientated back then) and then a forth and so on. Then this idea that became kigo in Japan would have been so successful a committee took it off all these people and forced a centralised saijiki.  There are parallels in Christianity (but that's another story). ;-)

Japan is not dissimilar in geography etc... to the U.K. and if we don't start something now, just like that bloke and his mate several centuries ago, then it will always have the same argument.

I don't think a number of us mind if this takes centuries, what's 800 years amongst friends after all?  But back on a serious note, the genie is out of the bottle (Matsuyama Declaration, and before that the French and Dutch, Blyth, imagists, beat poets etc...) and won't be going back.

If we don't do this, the term haiku will continue to be derivative doggerel to most people, and the same could happen to kigo anyway.

Alan

[chibi575]

GRITS!!!

What the hell?   ::)

hominy yankee


Please forgive the tacky (sticky and cultural faux pas) of this post, but, I've proposed "grits" as a regional seasonal word, perhaps as the "all season" variety, although mostly cold weather seasons depending on the region.

Now, what does that have to do with THF Subject: Lost and Found in Translation?  Just try to translate that meaning from my short poem at the beginning of this post without having some idea and history of "grits", "hominy", and "yankee" in relationship to The South. 

So, Lorin and others, questioning relevance of the "kigo" discussion in this particular forum... I rest my kigo in your saijiki!!

I love haiku... I write/read/translate haiku and ELH ("forku" as Colin coined it)  ;D

I MUST use a saijiki and dictionary in translating Japanese poems or risk totally missing the feelings-meanings of the author; and, for that same reason as someone caring about feelings-meanings in others poems it would help tremendously if a concise world encyclopedia of such would exist for other readers/writers/translators (not to mention editors, bless there halos and black hearts).

[The opinions expressed by me in this forum are soley mine and not necessarily the sponsors of THF.  I take sole/soul responsibility for its content.  ::) ]

Now, if I could only figure out how to be the character Bill Murray played in "Lost in Translation"   :o