The Haiku Foundation Forums

Quoteon a bare branch
a crow settles
autumn dusk

Gabi, my question:
you will know if you read the original Japanese verse by Basho if it's a simile or not?

I will look for the Japanese first

kara eda ni karasu no tomari keri
aki no kure

There is the kireji (cutting word) keri at the end of line 2

There is no word like "like" or "as" to indicate a direct simily (as Cat has remarked).

This is a good example of a cutting word used in a Japanses haiku to combine two images (toriawase), and it is up to the translator to show this relationship to poets who do not read Japanese.

Here are some more examples of translations:
http://wkdkigodatabase03.blogspot.com/2007/11/autumn-dusk-aki-no-kure.html

Gabi

.

sprouts of horsetail
as if a legendary person is wearing
a pleated skirt

Just found the Japanese for this one

真福田が  
袴よそふか
つくづくし　
（まふくだがはかまよそふかつくづくし）
Mafukuda ga hakama yosou ka tsukuzukushi

「眞福田」は、行基上人が前世に信仰を支援した僧侶の名前。

Mafukuda
wears his hakama ... ka
this horsetail

the "legendary person" is the young priest Mafukuda, for whom Saint Gyoki made a purple hakama (pleated trousers for men and women), but only with one leg.
(There is a purple flower called "fujibakama" (hakama like a wisteria, thoroughwort)

My bit on Gyoki, who seems at the center of this haiku, and reverence to old Basho, who knew so much in an age without googeling ...
http://darumapilgrim.blogspot.com/2005/09/gyoki-bosatsu.html

and more about the trouser-skirt hakama
http://haikutopics.blogspot.com/2006/12/trouser-skirt-hakama.html

I think I should study this more, seems it is another "haiku in context", with more background than the words will show.
.....

pine mushroom
with its ragged top it's
like a pine tree

maybe Jane can provide the Japanese for it.
Got to run for now

Gabi

On the Japanese side, we have some words to indicate "like"


In Japanese haiku, by using the cut marker carefully,
we can imply a comparison
without mentioning it directly.

That is one of the great tricks that gives Japanese haiku its special flavor and indirect touch. Juxtaposition (toriawase) should be studied carefully.


But in the Japanese language, we do use the direct comparison
... no gotoku ... のごとく,の如く　/ no gotoshi のごとし、の如し
in haiku, if the situation absolutely calls for it.



Gabi
http://wkdhaikutopics.blogspot.com/2008/07/metaphor.html

.
first picked tea -
the geiger counter keeps ticking
and ticking

http://japan-afterthebigearthquake.blogspot.com/2011/05/may-17-tuesday.html

te hajime 手始（てはじめ）first picking (of tea leaves)
ichibancha 一番茶（いちばんちゃ）first picked tea
nibancha 二番茶（にばんちゃ）second picked tea
sanbancha 三番茶（さんばんちゃ）third picked tea
yobancha 四番茶（よばんちゃ）fourth picked tea

and more kigo
http://haikuandhappiness.blogspot.com/2008/05/fresh-tea.html

Gabi

NHK television has a regular haiku program every week.
There is one kigo given each week and more than a few thousend people send their haiku with this kigo. They are published in the NHK magazine ... and everyone enjoys reading it.

There are no clichees with kigo, but there has to be a new angle around it, a new aspect, new situation, fresh moment, a new LIFE around the old kigo.
This is where the poet has to show his mettle (do you use this expression in English?) .

Gabi
(just back online after a blackout after a strong thunderstorm ...)

QuoteAs to kigo, I don't think there is a lack of interest in local/regional kigo, either in Japan or elsewhere.

Unfortunately where there may be a chance to increase development in regional Japanese kigo, there is resistance, even odd aggression against non-Japanese writers to collect and use local words and phrases that can be in time be considered Western kigo.

The more this resistance to surely an amazing opportunity in non-Japanese haiku continues it will be successful in making sure it never occurs.

Writers, hopefully, will work round the strangeness of resistance to developing this fact.

Gabi's kigo database helps prove there is a constant wave of people and examples that there can be a chance for non-Japanese kigo to develop over time.  What an amazing thing it could be that if we look back after 30-50 years (not us as individuals of course) that we could be on track.

Alan

Thanks for taking up worldwide kigo collecting ... maybe the THF could start a useful project?
New kigo are coming up in Japan every season, this year it might be

setsuden　節電 saving energy

New season words for other regions of the world should be sprouting too ...  taking ELH  a big step further, enriching its potential, widening the path for allusions ... enriching haiku in all aspects of cultural context.

Gabi

Basho's trip to Oku has been part of a TV movie series, with Sora being the ninja spy ... and old Basho writing cryptical haiku messages ...
His "alternative lifestyle" is known of course.
And food poisoning was quite common in these days without refrigerator, as was poisoning of enemies ...

Sorry, no time to indulge in more details right now.
Gabi

狼に蛍がひとつ付いていた　　
　
ookami ni
hotaru ga hitotsu
tsuite ita

ookami ni hotaru ga hitotsu tsuite ita

The Japanese does not have a kireji anywhere ...  it is in fact just one sentence ...

As you will realize from this, translators have a way of "interpreting" things for their readers ...
The whole discussion about semicolon and metaphor does not apply to the original haiku.

here

on the wolf
a firefly
attached itself

http://www.haiku-hia.com/rireki_tohta_en.html


Gabi

from the seat of ones pants. I was fooled.
cheers, paul cordeiro

Hi Paul, I think this wolf comes right from the "seat of his pants".  :)



He was still quite "acitve" until old age, as I remember him saying, and this haiku is about himself.

Gabi

Altogether elsewhere, vast
Herds of reindeer move across
Miles and miles of golden moss,
Silently and very fast.

I am tempted to parapharse


altogether elsewhere, vast
the huge tsunami  move across
miles and miles of coastal land
silently and very fast


But I would never consider this a haiku . . .

Gabi from Japan

Well, Cat
we have now figured out  the difference between
traditional Japanese haiku and the attitude of traditional Japanese haiku poets

versus

EHL haiku poets in an ELH environment  very clearly.



I think it is necessary for beginners to be aware of this difference.

Thank you.

Gabi

QuoteBut in every day writing practice, it can be crazy-making and also an energy vampire to think too much about labels.  Write what you want to write.  Send it out, as most journals are receptive to both haiku and senryu and don't ask you to choose a term for your work.  (Some of the competitions and Prune Juice -- which focuses on senryu and kyoka -- are exceptions.)

One of my colleagues used to have a poster on his classroom wall that said, "Label jars, not people."  I would say "poems" could be substituted for "people" in that.  Sometimes the theoretical can help the practical, but it can also get in the way of the writing by pulling focus away from what makes a poem effective, which is after all the main goal.
cat

Well, traditional Japanses haiku is FORMAL poetry.
You have to make the effort to learn the form  before writing it well.
(stress is here on "make an effort")

It has been debated a lot ... what remains if you loose the form and just write short poems?
But that is another debate.

Gabi

Dear Mariu

things are different in Japan and in ELH circles.
I usually advise my haiku friends in line with the Japanese tradition.

There haiku is defined by its form (short-long-short, one season word, one cut marker) and can contain any words and any subjects that come up in the situation the poet wants to write about.
If you include a season word, you are in the realm of haiku. Humanity is part of haiku, writing about ME and MY children and MY beloved wife is part and parcel of Japanese haiku (you can find many sampels in the World Kigo Database).
Season words include two categories that are only concerned with what we humans do during the seasons, they are called "humanity" (about food and drink, clothing, homes etc.) and "observances" (about annual festivals and rituals).
So you see, humanity with all their acitivities are part of haiku,
just as they are part of senryu.
Many haiku are humorous and funny, HAI even means this.


ELH, on the other hand, does not have such simple and clear definitinos in most forums (there are some that consider teikei, the haiku form, important) and thus the confusion about haiku and senryu. Many ELH editors have made up their own "guidelines" for their magazines.

You can read more Japanese haiku, senryu and about zappai, another type of haiku-derived poetry in Japan
http://haikutopics.blogspot.com/2006/12/senryu-and-haiku.html

Haiku, Senryu, Zappai (俳句, 川柳, 雑俳)

A traditional Japanese haiku poet has made up his mind to write haiku and thus adheres to the "three formal conditions" of haiku.
See Inahata Teiko
http://wkdhaikutopics.blogspot.com/2007/02/haiku-definitions.html

Gabi

.

I try to promote "haiku in context" on an international level.
In that way you can write your haiku simple and "not a riddle" in your own culture, but give a clue to readers from other parts of the world.
This is not in the way of haibun, but additional information, links, photos, whatever it takes to make your point.
This is the basic idea behind the World Kigo Database, when it started off with regional kigo, expanding to regional "tocpic, keywords" ... etc.
http://worldkigodatabase.blogspot.com/

When translating the Japanese haiku, I often have to add long explanations for example of regional food, festivals, clothing etc. and the many things from the Edo period (Issa, Basho) which  provide even the Japanese with a time slip into the "deep past" .

For example for festivals, rituals and so on, there are "Japanese haiku in context" here:
http://wkdfestivalsaijiki.blogspot.com/

For haiku to be a simple "stand alone", you are very limited to basic common conditions, like the bees and the butterflies ... but for me it is important to show your local culture within your haiku.

Gabi from Japan
.

You must use the   html.jpg   for the photo to show.You get this when clicking on  the image, then go to PROPERTY



Gabi