The Haiku Foundation Forums

(posted elsewhere, also)

Hey Myron,

In a way, fragments are often statements.  IE:  twinkling stars:  it's a statement and it's an image (if the reader has an imagination).  I don't worry about "statements" too much until they're limited to, as Cat alludes too, a simple idea.  Just writing an idea would not be a haiku.

fluttering, fluttering
butterflies yellow
over water

L1 are simple action.  We don't know anything about them as to size, color etc.  Alone, L1 is a statement.  We don't even know what's fluttering yet so the haiku at this point is wide open.  L2, butterflies yellow (or yellow butterflies) is a simple noun with an adjective.  Though, it conjures up more of an image, it is also a statement;  there isn't much of an image yet.  L3 is a statement.  It clues the reader into location and brings up an "open" image but the haijin didn't go into whether it is an ocean, pond, lake or etc.  However, with all three lines combined with a proper "cut", we have a wonderful image (open and resonant).

I think we often get to tied up into specifics when writing haiku in English and forget to leave more to the reader to "see" as he/she sees.  People will read haiku differently based on their personal experiences in life.  That is  another important issue to keep in mind when writing these little gems ( to me).

Don

ps... poem by Shiki translated by Burton Watson

Hi onecloud,

"I consider this topic a non-debate" (onecloud).   

I do too.  But, I've always liked to theorize with Chibi.  He enjoys it and it causes me to ponder and often solidify what my outlooks/beliefs are regarding haiku.  My haiku always improve through the efforts of these chats. 

great seeing you here,

Don
:)

There's some interesting choices you've made.  Shiki made three:

kigo
one cut (kireji)
shasei

Shiki stated that these were the only aspects that absolutely needed to be there for writing haiku.  He was also a man of honest realsim in regards to writing his haiku.  Interesting to note, that Shiki "borrowing from the vocabulary of Western painting, he adopted the term shasei" (sketch from life). (Burton Watson, Masaoka Shiki Selected Poems).  He believed that everything around you was full of haiku to write about.  From mist, to clouds, rain, apples and the like, he wrote haiku.

"He urged them first of all not to be bound by the conventions of the past but to be open and natural in their approach and to endeavor to create works that conformed first of all to their own tastes".   He wanted them to break away from time worn themes and to write about their daily lives and what's around them and to conjure up the mood and emotion of them in haiku.  As he said in 1899, "Take your materials from what is around you".  Keep in mind, that Shiki never studied under any professional haijin.  He read to learn:  his approach was that of an "outsider".

He rejected wordplay, allusions and puns in general and he didn't like haiku "telling" stories .  He liked his poem to show ... a true shasei.

His goal was to create an "artistic moment the significance of which will far transcend the <technical> elements that go into it".  He wrote to inspire a mood or emotion.  He sought things around him that he could write about that would do that.  

With some of this in mind, the Shiki haiku requirement list would be:

kigo
cut
shasei
mood/emotion
stay away from wordplay, puns and allusions (etc)
5/7/5 (possibly ... though it comes naturally in Japanese)

Shiki was in an era where there was much cultural exchange.  While Japan was receiving a great many artistic influences from the West, the West was receiving a few in exchange including haiku.

It's clear that the language doesn't have pronouns etc.  But, I don't think they write as though they are not there.  It's clear they are.  They didn't have the need, aparently, to tell everyone else the "I" was there or it is "my" dog ... as in that culture, that, in context, was a given.

Interesting stuff.

These are the only crucial ingredients that Shiki maintained were important.  What a nice and simple list for others to begin their writing haiku from.  Shiki didn't like complexity in structure.  It's apparent he liked the simplicity of it and the straight-forwardness of it.  I have no interest in making more difficult than his suggestions as outlined above.

Shiki Haiku marks the one liner "simplicity is a giant" as monumental.

I'm really busy these next weeks ... I'll be in and out here.  Probably not much more to say.  I'd rather spend more time writing haiku and my books than discussing if it's possible or not for a person who speaks English. There are so many great examples of haiku in English and I enjoy them as such.  So much talent on this planet:  it's awesome!

all the best,

Don

LOL... have a great holiday week!   :)

Hey Col,

That word kind of resonates! LOL  forku ...  ::)

12345
12345 I need
nearly two more hands

:P

hmmmm I remember seeing that.  Now... to find it again.  ::)

I'm with ya.  Lets start now.    8)   It's the perfect solution.  It would blend perfectly with the ELH as well.  We let Shiki be the guide.  We all fall into place.  He was the only renegade we need.  Now, we ban together and make it work for him post-mortum.  This is his dream too.  Now it's ours collectively. 

Shiki Haiku - a world wide movement to bring different cultures into the haiku experience.  EIF for Japan and JIF for all foreigners.  And then, a sub title of ELH (Gabi's reference) for any of those writing haiku in English. 

I'd be happy to help set this up with you and Gabi.  It would be great fun.

then we can deal with Kigo, kire, kigo,karumi, kiregi, on (onji), shasei, and the rest one at a time.  We could have a nice reference manual in probably a year or so.

many blessings, Chibi

Don

Yes Chibi, I will.  I apologize about your blood pressure.   :o  Possibly meditate some?  :)

Two names:

Japan:  EIH:  English Influence Haiku in Japan.  Shiki was very influenced by English, by Amercia, really.  It had an incredible impact on his reformation of how haiku would be perceived and written in the future by many generations to come.  In fact,  he was so radical in his thoughts, he recognized that he needed a new name from hokku and haikai equating in some way to the new Shiki Haiku.  His style was no longer Japanese.  It was Shiki.  Possibly, the use of Shiki Haiku might be a winner as well.  There is a concept that would apply around the world including Japan.  He was English influenced:  non Japanese are struggling with the Japanese concepts ... but not the shiki concepts.  

Foreign:  JIH: Japanese Influence Haiku in all other locations but Japan.  This would be our division in America.  

Shiki Haiku:  this would be the name of everyone's haiku, really.  He is Japanese, but he was English (American) influenced.  Some of our ingenuity was more than welcomed by him.  He exploited many of non Japanese concepts to continue with his reform.  This one is really beneficial as it would allow everyone to use it and therefore keep us again, as a single family of haijin exploring the uses theories of writing haiku together.  Shiki Haiku.  Yes, honestly, Japan, America, Australia, England, France and the rest of the countries involved would have a united single name that we would all understand.

Shiki Haiku:  this is the reform haiku.  This is the haiku we've all be writing all over the world.  It's cutting edge.  It's free (as Shiki chatted and wrote about a lot).  It would contain the concepts of finding value right in front of you nose that's a haiku.  That where ever you are, a haiku is there with you (paraphrase).  

Secondly, in Shiki Haiku World Wide (to include everyone) I would start by suggesting the use of kigo.  Shiki referenced a kigo in every single haiku he wrote, as I understand it.  He was meticulous about that.  Next, the American artist sketch - his shasei, as a result, should be the core principle of how it is written - psychologically.  Then, possibly use S/L/S as the structure to imitate his lines the best we can in different languages.  He was strict 5/7/5.  But that is more of a natural quality of the Japanese language than anything.  Lets see if the Japanese can write poetry that doesn't rhyme!   :P   ( a joke) :)

This is fascinating.  I await your thoughts.

all the best,

Don

Yes Chibi, I was jesting a little.   :)

But seriously,  I honestly believe that in today's light, that the Japanese Haiku should be called English Influenced Haiku (as a result of Shiki's reformation).  So, we have two categories:

In all sincerity:

"English Influenced Japanese Haiku" - EIH (for short) for Japan
"Japanese Influenced Foreign Haiku" - JIH (Japanese influenced haiku)  for all those countries outside of Japan.  

I won third place two years in a row at the Kusamakura International Haiku Contest in the Foreign Division.  That's where I'm getting this idea from.  They listed me as foreign division.  They listed the Japanese as they are.

You are either Japanese or Foreign.  Not fair to say: Japanese and English (or American)... what about the rest of the world? This must be a much broader picture than just the USA.  There are folks all over the world writing these gems today.  We need an appropriate name for all non Japanese Haijin, haiku practitioners.

My suggestion:

EIH for Japan:  JIH for all countries other than Japan.  This gives everyone a win/win.  Then folks can say haiku from any country (for short) but not without realizing the more formal and grander names of EIH and JIH respectively.

Thank you for your efforts.  These are names that I could live with.

take care,

Don

No, I'm suggesting the new genre be called English Haiku and then, in general, just don't say English.  I think it should be shortened to Haiku which would be very fitting in this case as our language has effected the original Japanese haiku so much, we should honor our influence by maintaining the name.  Possibly the Japanese would like to adjust there's by calling it English Influenced Haiku in the future.  The would be more than appropriate.

I would go with all of this above. It's a fair and resonable solution for us all. 

Don

A very interesting thread.  :)

"cat your reply prompts a question, can we consciously engineer layers when composing the haiku or do they happen as a by product while we create and play with the concept ?"  gael


I don't think it's possibe to predict every layer of our own poems.  If we write them well and allow room for resonance, readers are going to gather their "ah-haas" in different ways and often based on their own experiences in life.  Personally, I wouldn't want to write a haiku that is completely controlled at every level, if I thought I could (and I don't think so).  It is important to include the layers you have in mind though that builds depth and character in your haiku. Just my two cents.  :)

There is a mystery in this little gem, haiku, and that is in the way it becomes so personal with each and every reader.  We don't all walk away with the identical thoughts and that's as it should be;  at least, I believe so.

fun stuff,

Don

as a quick side note:

It was Shiki who got the idea of shasei from American painting and sketch art ... he coined the term as a result of American influence and he personally delved into sketching on paper as well as in the way he envisioned haiku.  In that regard, Japanese haiku was modified via the influence of the English language and American customs.  That should directly relate to your needs.

Don

Burton Watson is one of the world's foremost translators of Chinese and Japanese.  His translations can be found at Columbia University Press for such things as The Lotus Sutra. The Vimalakirti Sutra, Rvokan: Zen Monk Poet of Japan, Masaoka Shiki (selected poems) and so forth.

The following:
*************
Burton Watson (born 1925) is an accomplished translator[1] of Chinese and Japanese literature and poetry. He has received awards including the Gold Medal Award of the Translation Center at Columbia University in 1979, the PEN Translation Prize in 1981[2] for his translation with Hiroaki Sato of From the Country of Eight Islands: An Anthology of Japanese Poetry, and again in 1995 for Selected Poems of Su Tung-p'o.

Watson was born in New Rochelle, New York. He dropped out of high school at age 17 to join the Navy in 1943 and was stationed on repair vessels in the South Pacific. His first experiences in Japan came of weekly shore leaves when he was stationed on a ship at Yokosuka Harbor in 1945. Subsequently, he majored in Chinese and Japanese studies at Columbia University. In 1951[3] he returned to Kyoto, this time as a Ford Foundation Overseas Fellow[2]. In 1956 he completed a dissertation on Sima Qian, earning a Ph.D. from Columbia University.[1] He worked as an English teacher at Doshisha University in Kyoto, as a research assistant to Yoshikawa Kōjirō, who was Professor of Chinese Language and Literature at Kyoto University[4], and as a member of Ruth Fuller Sasaki's team translating Buddhist texts into English[1]. He has also taught at Stanford and Columbia as a professor of Chinese. He moved to Japan in 1973, where he remains to this day, and has devoted much of his time to translation.

His experience is an entire life time.  Not just in the tens but in the thousands of translations he has rendered with incredible sincerity and reputation.
************
Therefore, I trust this gentleman's credibility.  I'm sure he has looked his work over extremely carefully and has come to the conclusion that the use of "my" was absolutely necessary in order to maintain the intent of the haiku in English.  For more info on him folks can start here:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burton_Watson   It's a quick beginning.  There's more if you research, by far.

all the best,

Don

Hello,

In my opinion, it's a perfectly acceptable thing to do.  A great example is from the book Masaoka Shiki translated by Burton Watson, a top expert in the field.

from the firefly
in my hands,
cold light

(of course, it won't translate into S/L/S in English etc. )

A recent one of mine:

my cat
curled up at my feet
curled up more

We are part of the nature as much as any other being could be.  There's no way that the masters nor us could continuously leave ourselves out of the picture of our experiences.  I support the inclusion very strongly.  Yet, it's always good to vary our writing a bit so we don't beat it to death, too.  In this case it is my cat and I wanted that relationship (truth) to be an aspect of the haiku.  It was truth.

Another from Shiki:

under my sandal souls
the sweet smell
of meadow grasses

translated by Watson.

When it is right in your mind... it's that perfect time to use it, do it!  That's what the haiku is calling for and needs to fulfill its truth.  I truly believe we must first and foremost write the truth and do so as though everything is part of that truth.  From the truth of what we witness and seeing the clarity in it, we discover our haiku.  When we deny the intrinsic truth, we end up manufacturing the haiku.  That becomes the stumbling block to writing fine haiku that are objective but truthful in the sense of higher truth and clarity as a result.  We don't answer to editors primarily.  We answer to ourselves for not pursing truth and we're included in it completely.  

However, again, it isn't something to be used cheaply nor easily.  Nothing is really.  Each word is so important:  each one must be weighed perfectly.  And, then craft the haiku the way it needs to be.  After that, move on and write more.  Some will be celebrated while others may ignored.  It doesn't matter either way.  Write them anyway the way they really need to be written.

Just me thinking out loud.  I apologize for getting too into it.  But this stuff reveals my passion for fine haiku writing and its truth.

many blessings

Don