The Haiku Foundation Forums

ma, zoka, karumi, yugen, tontoism, kiregi, kigo, in any language are some of the terms we use ... are these what you tend to mean here?  Should they be translated into English?... or do you mean vocabulary in Japanese and/or English?  Are all words in any language everyone's or do they need to be in the relative language of the poet?

interesting thoughts, chibi.

Don

The interplay and information/ideas within this thread is very interesting and informative.  The subject of EL Kigo would be another fantastic thread just on its own - where Japanese kigo could be compared with EL Kigo as to the differences, if any, in contemporary times. And, would a EL Saijiki (complete hon'i) help us out?

I view kigo as an expansion; it's far more than a season word.  I see it as a indicator, like the tip of an iceberg with so much more in the resonance that will surface with greater pondering and understanding.  It's a word of wealth; of abundance.  It's an inclusive word rather than exclusive.  And, it resonates beyond the ink on a page into the realm of raw thought, memory, association, and vivid images.

I wonder Gabi, if you would like to start a new post called something like Japanese Kigo and Its English Language Counterpart.  Something along that line?  Just thinking out loud. It could be a wonderful exploration of the qualities of kigo and how we can relate them to EL Haiku in the most traditional way possible.

"I don't see the immanent 'death of haiku', Don. I believe that we have barely scratched the surface in EL haiku. A better and deeper understanding of kigo would be one thing, I believe,that would open new opportunities and challenges for EL haiku. But we need the co-operation of translators from the Japanese for that. I see no use in longer and longer lists of kigo without the essential information about hon'i included." lorin

I agree fully, Lorin ... and yet wonder at the same time - "is the clock ticking and will we have to change haiku in English radically to keep up with the tick"?  And, if we don't, will EL Haiku become cliche in general.  Yet, if we change it radically, will what we write still be EL Haiku? Or will it, as chibi mentions from time to time, be a simple short poem.  

Are all EL Haiku cliche?  Is S/L/S already outdated?  Was it ever in?  Is the phrase and frag theory already gone and useless?  Is the basic form of EL Haiku already cliche?  Is that why there are so many people writing non-conforming structure EL Haiku and pressing the very limits of Haiku as a poem structure.  Will there be a traditional structure for haiku in ten years (in EL)?  Or is it already on its way out the door?

Just pondering a bit tonight.

Don

Hi chibi!

A very interesting expose on your process.  You have captured a fabulous moment, by the way!

summer surf:
folds of seafoam
at ocean's edge

Nice ... :)  And,

summer surf ...
at the ocean's edge
folds of seafoam

Just my take on it .................. thanks for sharing.  I enjoyed the read!

Don

Hi Alan.  The pdf idea would work fine!  I'll email you.

Thanks,

Don

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Thanks,

Don

Hello Eve,

Thanks for the interesting post!  I love the quote!  

Haiku are interestingly unique as they can mean so many different things within such minute structures.  They are indeed dynamically flexible as to what they impart when read by differing folks of different mindsets and experiences.  They're short, having particular and unique rhythms - often times musical.  

The combination of sound and meaning, in haiku, become focused together into a poetic laser when the paper is underneath the right pen.  Remove the meaning or define it too clearly equates to the destruction of a searching mind as well as the poem's value; to take away the sounds and rhythm, is to destroy the musical, feeling mind - in the end, the reader's creative association.  And, once again, the poem loses value.

Enjoyable thread,

Don

Hi Josie,

Palm Sunday-
the April shower turns
to snow

late late night
crying over
chopped onions

Both of these haiku are two image haiku either through obivous statement or inference image such as Palm Sunday - an image to many people; a statement to others.

Interesting thread,

Don

I remain in Basho's corner regarding the set.  It even implies that he, himself, is also no one.  I like the humbleness of it.

If I may:

teetering grass ...
just moments ago
a dragonfly

best to you,

Don

Hello,

I'd also love to see a single image haiku example that you have in mind!  I generally write haiku with two images and then of course, clash them (juxtaposition etc.).

Thanks,

Don

Hey Gabi,

in pondering:

pine mushrooms -
the more ragged their tops,
the more they look like red pines

pine mushrooms -
their ragged tops
look like red pines

Just thinking out loud and enjoying the subject!

Don

ps ... thanks for posting this!  It's great!

Hi Alan,

The following is a quote from you on another thread; it represents my pondering very well and is at the root of my inquiry with this current thread.  Your comment is:

"Good points John, but I have an aversion to silent and silence. ;-)  They are now overused in haiku, I've thousands and thousands using those two words and variations on it.

...etc (text removed by me (Don) as it isn't necessary in regards to this chat)

Alan

http://www.thehaikufoundation.org/forum_sm/mentoring-beginner/wind-chimes/


With the thought that haiku are very short (at 11 words or so) and that we are already reaching a point of redundancy, I wonder how long it will be before we reach a place where we cannot write a fresh haiku without including words now "over-used".  Considering that there are currently a large number of words/phrases already on the cliche list, are we on the verge of losing the freshness of language in haiku?  Is it going to be impossible in the nearing future to write original haiku without drastically changing its shape and/or rules?  Is the clock ticking on ELH, actually?

Just pondering ... and I'm still writing, hopefully, new and fresh haiku.

Don

Hi Lorin and all,

No worry.  I love the organic aspect of this thread.  There are lots of interesting topics coming out of it. I'm sure we'll come back around to the main topic, if needed.  :) 

take care,

Don

Quote from: Lorin on May 11, 2011, 05:18:17 PM

Quote from: Don Baird on May 11, 2011, 12:28:34 PM

While there are possibly 100,000 words in our vocabulary there are only a small percentage of those that we can choose and use for haiku.  We are greatly limited in words through the confines of historical structure and form demand.  I think this may have been what was frustrating Basho of which he made clear in a few of his quips/comments, apparently.

If we're getting close to cliche regarding many of our words for use in haiku are we also on the brink of running out of options for writing such a genre?  The thought remains interesting to ponder.

best,

Don

"We are greatly limited in words through the confines of historical structure and form demand.  I think this may have been what was frustrating Basho of which he made clear in a few of his quips/comments, apparently." - Don

So, what did Basho do? He kept changing the focus, or 'the rules' whenever things looked like becoming cliched. He expanded the topics that could be included in renga, he challenged the notions of what kind of language was acceptable, his 'haikai aesthetics' changed over time. (...leaving, it's true, every time he moved on, annoyed former disciples who wanted to hang on to his earlier positions and make them 'the rules'.  8)   )

- Lorin

"He kept changing focus, or the rules ... his haikai aesthetics, etc..." ~Lorin

As we may have to as well.  Thanks Lorin.  A solid point taken.

Don

Quote from: chibi575 on May 11, 2011, 01:21:40 PM
Haiku colored glasses... could I borrow yours?

Wouldn't that be a great way to see another's point of view?

8)

Chibi,

I'll take light green please!   8)

Quote from: Alan Summers on May 11, 2011, 12:38:45 PM
Hi Don,

I don't think we are running out of word, or phrases. ;-)

English is rich enough for us to use concrete images to denote loneliness, even though a single cry etc... may have been used, just using the singlular of something could suggest we are alone with just one bird, flower etc...

I'm constantly surprised at the freshness of ELhaiku even though close to a million have possibly been composed so far. ;-)

Alan

Personally, Alan, I agree ... but, it is an interesting question and one that deals directly with math ... which therefore, attracts my eye.  While this question being inherently one of poetry and therefore creativity, it is also one of math ... is the clock ticking on haiku?

I say no.  But, will poets 500 hunred years from now be able to say no?  I'm not looking short range here  (barring that we don't blow ourselves up before the question can be answered over time)!!!

best to you,

Don