The Haiku Foundation Forums

Good luck, Col.  I hope things go well.

take care,

Don

Interesting thread and question.  In martial arts, beginners are taught strong basics.  The more advanced they become the greater freedom of movement and tactics they acquire; more creative.  I think basics are important and once mastered, freedom is discovered as a result of those basics.  I do believe, however, that regardless of how advanced someone is in music or poetry and etc., that if they move too far away from the purpose of the form, it is no longer the form.  IE:  A concerto moved to far away from its structure is no longer a concerto (in a classical sense).

Just some thoughts.

Don

(Sorry ... had to remove this haiku.  It is not a private posting area and therefore could be considered published by some folks if it remained.  I've removed it for that reason only)

best to all,

Don

Hello Bea ...

They may work as a keyword but not as a kigo.  :)

Don

It's interesting to ponder the oriental thought of "becoming one with something";  "become one with the bow" ... "let the unexpected arise" etc..  In the case we're discussing here, we are not becoming one with anything but, rather, becoming the thing itself (activity, emulation, likeness).  The ancient phrase would no longer be "be one with ...".  Instead, it would be "I become the thing" ... in the beginning, psychologically without ignoring the possibility of the becoming to be physical as well.


... thought provoking.

Yes, and in this case the Psychological Transformation apparently resulted in a physical activity/transformation as well - the emulation of a motorcycle and the recognition of the "likeness" from his angry actions - his roar! (hence, the poem)

It seems, Pyschological Transformation at its most rudimentary stage would be inactivity (the body not necessarily carrying out what the mind thinks).  The physical action as a result of the transformation becomes the activity - a living, action packed physical activity that can only be explained via a metaphor.    The metaphor is the tickle that leads the reader to ponder - encouraging her/him to engage imagination which in the end, fulfills the poem's requisition.

Physical Transformation:  how many times have we seen someone physically transform as a result of a Psycological Transformation? Are these two separate activities or one?  Is one a subcategory to the other and the metaphor a result?  Is this the formula: psychological transformation, physical transformation, imagination = metaphor? (in regards to this poem)

 

I imagine that Taoism may have had a stronger and more direct influence on haiku poetry than Buddhism.  It seems that Buddhism is a possible property of haiku that is defined as such "after the fact", so to speak (after it's written).  However, the permeating perspectives of Taosim most likely affected the writing of haiku in the action side of things (up front and before the haiku was written). The causitive perception being in advance of writing the haiku rather than being discovered as a result of studying an existing poem and attributing it to anything (in particular, Buddhism).

Nevertheless, Buddism, by default, probably had great influence on many Japanese haijin;  it's very difficult to "separate the self from the self".  An internal spiritual perception of self will inevitably create a subtle bias as to how the self "sees things" and, thusly, how they are written.  I think this may be where the subjectivity side of things come into play and, most likely without the haijin being aware of it. In other words, there is no way to separate the Buddhist Self, the Taoist Self, the Christian Self or any other religion or spiritual perception (or self) from the activity self - the haijin.

Don

in a tent in the rain i become a climate

I enjoy the changes of focus very much: tent to rain to I.  The repetitive word "in" is massively important in making this poem work, as well.  For me, I wonder if:

in the rain in a tent I become a climate might not have worked better ... but, then again, Jim doesn't write his poems without a great deal of thought; that is clear.  So, back to the order and why it is so ...

Don

@John ... great response!

@Alan ... You are so right about different schools.  And, yes ... it seems clear that Basho wanted folks to find their own voice but he was also quite strict about certain things, as you know (in particular zoka).  Different schools within a source framework is one thing; schools clearly and abstractly out of the source framework would no longer be considered part of the family of that framework - might no longer be considered a haiku.

Humans for example, are no longer considered monkeys (give or take an inch) though many continue to behave like them!  LOLLLLL   ::)

best to you,

Don

ps ... I consider my first example (intentionally) to not be a haiku; the second one, while different in some ways, I consider to be a haiku ... food for thought and chat.  :)

Hey John,

Yes, I absolutely agree that poets should write anything they want.  I'm wondering though, if we write ...

dog across the street
many people on the grass
doing nothing

...if that is a haiku and should be called one, therefore?  If we agree to break any standard of Japanese Haiku and still call it haiku, then shouldn't this one have the same right to be called a haiku.  And, if not, where is the line drawn.  Once an art form is severely distorted, is it still the art form or something brand new?  When does it need a new name? 

sweet potato moon
a few ravens soaring
blur the night

What is it? 

I think a problem we might be having is that haiku has been defined in so many ways that no one actually knows what it is anymore (except in certain circles of Japan).  When something like this occurs, it seems only logical to return to its roots ... and study. 

This is a fantastic thread and you are posing excellent food for thought, John.

best,

Don

Quote from: John McManus on July 18, 2011, 06:28:03 PM

I'm not meaning to sound difficult or argumentative, but if we are to seriously analyse japanese techniques, and apply them to how we write haiku, then I fear alot of the rules of engagement that we have become familiar with are going to be thrown clean out the window.

warmest,
John    

Sorry John, I meant to respond to this more specifically earlier. 

Yes, it's true.  And, it's needed.  If we are going to write haiku with the utmost integrity, we need to write it by Japanese rules of engagement, in any language.  Non Japanese poets should not take someone's art form and randomly change it because of want.  I sincerely believe it is imperative to respect the haiku art form to the highest degree and then go about writing the finest haiku that we can. 

Our haiku will improve as our "true knowledge" of haiku history and practices are more adequately understood.  We need to study kigo, kireji, ma, yugen, zoka, karumi and so forth in order to write haiku in the wonderful tradition of the Japanese ways.  I understand that we may fall short because we are not of the Japanese language, heritage, culture and/or traditions.  But we shouldn't fall short for lack of integrity.  It's integrity that we must keep while we remain in pursuit of haiku poetry and its practices, in my opinion.

A pointed article on the subject of kigo and Japanese aesthetics can be read here:

http://simplyhaiku.theartofhaiku.com/summer-2011/features/to-kigo-or-not-to-kigo.html

While the delivery is moderately unforgiving, the general point that Robert is making is spot on. And, possibly we need his kind of shake up to protect the haiku way of Japan in non Japanese cultures.  He has my attention!

Just some more thoughts ... as my friend chibi says, I'm just "wrankling" a bit.  :)

Don

I believe this ELH point of view has emersed us into a lightless tunnel of hypocrisy.  When the Japanese were first writing poetry, they used the Chinese language to do so.   It wasn't until later that the Japanese poets wrote their poetry in the Japanese language (which developed later).  When the Japanese began to write primarily in the Japanese language, the reference became "Japanese Language poetry" not dissimilar to what is being forced on English language poets of today.  But, what folks are not saying is that the JLP designation was soon to be ignored.  EHL needs to be soon ignored and haiku needs to be called what it is in any language - "haiku".

There are those today who insist on English speaking poets to continue to use such a designation as English Language Haiku, ELH.  My premise is that it isn't necessary to do so.  And it's the hypocrisy of the century in haiku and poetry in general to force the odd term ELH on anyone, especially if it was being done by someone who is actually Japanese!  For now, the most vocal folks pushing this concept on English speaking poets are other English speaking poets or at least, non Japanese poets.  I find that particularly interesting.  

Remember, Japanese poets originally wrote poetry primarily in Chinese.  As they switched language, over time, they began new collections of poetry in their own language.

Again, I ask all haiku poets to stop referencing our work as ELH or any other designation than haiku.  At the same time, I also suggest that English speaking haijin intensely study the Japanese ways and style of haiku in order to carry haiku forward into the world of non English speaking poetry while simultaneously retaining the integrity of the Japanese ways.  It's called respect.

Vocabulary: haiku, kigo, kireji, ma, yugen, zoka.  There is no reason why non-Japanese poets cannot use Japanese words as part of their vocabulary.  They are easy enough to say and it keeps the thought alive that we are indeed writing a historical style of the Japanese culture.  

Just my thoughts.

Don

ps ...  "If Japanese re-write their haiku in English, what is it called?  If USAians re-write their poems in Japanese, what is it called?  This is in part a reason for "developing vocabulary"." chibi

Answer:  it's called a translation. Otherwise, it is haiku.  The need to change Japanese terms into other languages is a frivolous waste of time.  It also distances foreign writers of haiku from the history and cultural ambience that needs to be retained, actually.  It's important for foreign poets to understand the words and concepts the Japanese use in order to keep from straying from the integrity of haiku and its principles.  haiku, kigo, kireji, ma, yugen, zoka, and all the rest need to be studied intensely, as I've mentioned.  How we reference those skills later might not matter, also.  For now, while we learn more about the haiku ways of Japan, the Japanese terms should continue to be used.

You've made excellent points here John.  I concur.  The more we learn of the Japanese ways the better our haiku will be; the more we know about the aesthetic tools the more our haiku will be likened to the Japanese tradition.  It is a dignity to uphold a tradition; in particular, it is an honor as well.

I would appreciate poets stop calling it ELH.  It isn't.  It is haiku and we should call it by its proper name.  However then, we need to live up to the aesthetics of haiku and learn more about kigo, yugen, zoka, ma, kireji, karumi et al ... to retain the essence of Japanese haiku the very best we can.  It is an obligation.

We hold Japan accountable for rules in baseball.  They have every right to hold us accountable to the rules and structure of haiku.  Whatever those rules may be, lets conntinue to learn about them, explore their theories, and write excellent haiku (in any language).

I think it's rather clear that haiku can indeed be written well in English.  Though a different language from where haiku was created, haiku (in English) can, with the right poet, carry the poem well enough to retain its now famed name, haiku.

It's absolutely true that many folks writing in English simply miss the entire essence, structure and theories of haiku.  But, those aside, in any genre, haiku is established and often well written in English.

Baseball is played rather well in Japan too.  I believe they still call "strikes", "balls", "you're out of here" (LOL), "home run" ... and though in a different language, true baseball lives on in Japan.

Sonnets live on from Italy as well ... in English, French and a zillion other languages.

This is old.  And thank goodness, it's not going anywhere but behind the scenes with the intellectuals pondering whether haiku can exist in any language but Japanese. It does; it will always.

Furthermore, the Haiku Foundation would have to change its name to "the Short English Poetry Foundation" of which would exclude a zillion other folks around the globe that do not read, write or speak English.   ::) :P :o 8)

Haiku is no longer exclusive and hasn't been for quite a long time.  So, it's time to accept where it is and begin to study Japanese techniques of writing such poems so that the integrity of them will not be lost.  There is skill in writing haiku; there are requirements; haiku, like the game monopoly, has rules of engagement.  We cannot escape that, change the rules and/or bend the art form beyond recognition either.  There is some inherent responsibility for the poets to live up to if they indeed want to continue calling the short poem haiku - in any language.

Instead of bantering about whether we can do it or not or what it should be called, I believe we should spend more time studying the Japanese ways and improve our skills at writing haiku in every regard. There is no argument.  It is already called haiku worldwide.  It's too late to change.  It has its own momentum.  It's this momentum we need to deal with.  Alan has it dead on.  Without us, without authentic haiku in the English language, the comic poets win - worldwide; then, the genre haiku (in English) will be ruined forever.

We are the caretakers.  We need to take that role of responsibility and do it right in any language.  

By the way, I also do not like the words ELH - English Language Haiku (I used to be for the idea but no longer).  I believe it is degrading of our work and the work of others who speak other languages than English.  We cannot and do not have to add the language as a preface to our artform, no matter where we're from or what we speak.  We write haiku.  That's it.  :)

Happy haiku-ing.

:)

Revised for clarification of ELH position.

Hi,

I've pondered this at length before and as a result created this thread to discuss it in detail:  http://www.thehaikufoundation.org/forum_sm/in-depth-haiku-free-discussion/is-the-clock-ticking-on-haiku/

With the brevity and lack of new words, are we running out of the ability to write new haiku?  Read the link and weigh in.

thanks,

Don