The Haiku Foundation Forums

Absolute consolation--the spiritual experienced through the sensual, as is fitting for haiku. Thanks for sharing that, col

Hi all,

and David, you write, "If I've correctly understood, I agree with both you and Alan that most ELH poets approach the world (or endeavor to) from the non-hierarchical point of view."

To parse those words even more finely, I think very few people, wherever they live, approach the world from a "non-hierarchical view." It's my impression that many (certainly not all, but possibly a majority of) haiku poets endeavor to communicate such a view (for some, a living philosophy) through their haiku. I'd be interested to hear other opinions on what might be a misconception on my part.

and David,

Your claim that "The constellation of our ethics and values; sense of community; understanding of the meaning and purpose of the world; perception of reality and time; and much more are grounded in the religious-cultural heritage of the society in which we have been raised" is true, I think, and useful to keep in mind going forward.

Peace

thanks for the compliment, Alan


         perfectly clear


now how to stay in the zone... :)

Alan Summers wrote, "I'm always intrigued when God is quoted."

Agreed. Before we go any further, though, let me clear up any potential misunderstandings. Those were not my words. And I'm neither Christian nor Jewish. I should have made better use of punctuation. The quote from the Hebrew Bible is, "God said, 'Let us make man in our image, after our likeness. And let them have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over the livestock and over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.' "

Thanks David, those haiku came to mind because they are among my favorites. As for poverty, I live in a wealthy nation in which the jobless and homeless are sometimes reduced to wandering the streets. It may be that confronting their poverty leads to empathy...wish it would happen more often. As your example of the Noyes haiku shows, the homeless are closer to nature whether they like it or not.

You've made a couple of mentions about schools of mysticism on the two Religio threads, and you quote Blyth, who was inspired by his understanding of Zen when he wrote, "that state of mind in which we are not separated from other things, are indeed identical with them, and yet retain our own individuality and personal peculiarities."

However, unity and interconnectedness don't preclude hierarchy. In the first creation telling that you reference above, we find something close to the following words: God said, "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness. And let them have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over the livestock and over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth." A world view at odds with the one usually communicated through contemporary elh?

I feel obliged to add that when I write "more believably the former" I'm anticipating certain shared cultural and literary assumptions

slippery terrain that only readers (including future readers if we are so favored) can map, and even then not with certainty

Ambiguity anyone? :)

m

"Hi, Mark!  I'm curious about the last example, as that seems to be an example of ambiguity.  I would think this would be an intimate scene between lovers, rather than a child's breath, but it really could be either.  It does seem that as you simplify, you do tend to leave your haiku open to interpretation.  Which of these do you prefer?" --Laura Sherman

Hi Laura,

That last hypothetical example (which I prefer the least) was intended as a logical extension of decreasing specificity, of which ambiguity is sometimes a byproduct. I think most people would share your interpretation of it, and that's my point: the choice of meanings is not as balanced as you suggest. A lover's breath, or a child's...I agree it could believably be the former, but not the latter. Or rather, more believably the former, and so the latter, if that is your preferred meaning, is not viable.

"Is the idea of interdependence or unity important for your appreciation of haiku? In my reading of haiku, this idea is usually grounded in an experience of nature, as we see in the examples from Laurie Stoelting and K. Ramesh. Have you seen this concept approached from other avenues?" -David Grayson

Hi David,

After reading your last post, three haiku came to mind. The first two trans. by R. Hass


      Sound of a saw;
poor people,
      winter midnight.

              Yosa Buson


      A poor box;
four or five pennies,
      evening rain.

            Kobayashi Issa


wind-borne seed
     I have
     my doubts

            Peggy Willis Lyles

Hi Laura,

Let's looks at your ideas for poems and one other:

the hushed breaths
of my infant
spring breeze

the hushed breaths
of an infant
spring breeze

her hushed breaths
spring breeze

Although these examples illustrate degrees of specificity more than ambiguity, imo, the implied meanings vary considerably. If the first is closest to your intended meaning, I think you should go with that.

"I am proposing to understand and embrace the boundaries, not, ignore their existence.  I am hoping for help in that direction." Chibi575 (Dennis)

I agree with your contention that haiku-in-Japanese is different in essential ways from haiku-in-English, but feel that your conclusion, if not "borderline nuts" :) is at least quixotic. If you want to use a term like the one you proposed or "just wee poems" that's okay with me, but good luck getting it to stick. The word haiku is in wide use, and means something semantically similar to many people. Does the word haiku mean to English-language readers what it meant to Shiki? Not quite. Does the word haiku mean to our Japanese contemporaries what it meant to Shiki? Closer, but not quite. And how about the hokku of Buson that Shiki held up as examples: did they mean to him what they meant to Buson?

Best wishes...