The Haiku Foundation Forums

When I read, I too come across many many poems that are so similar that it shocks me...not always into silence... I don't know whether that is plagiarism, given that there are only so many natural themes to write about. But then again, there is that particular signature style that one cultivates.

Thank you for your response. It takes courage to say it.

One other thing which I would like to insist upon: I think until tried and judged, everyone and everything should be afforded the benefit of doubt.

The thing is, the badge weighs, ... and an open forum may be too strong a place...what do you think?
If indeed deja-ku ...what then?
What would the amends be? Would an amend be possible?

I have to still read the essay and thankyou for the link. (I ran up to my study before lunch because I had to say this...now at least I know I did say what I thought was a honest response. I would not be able to eat in peace otherwise. )

Sorry Jennifer, but I did not get the title. I did notice the third lines are the same.  But it is a common expression: to demand candy ...

I dunno. Maybe it is just a coincidence...

I never read the popular one or the other one either ...

What is this all about ... I read two haiku but have no clue as to what you are saying, Jennifer ...

Quote from: Alan Summers on November 25, 2016, 06:16:23 AM
Hi Martin,

I will be saying more about MA etc... in an interview, but in the meantime I feel outside Japan we can do MA and kigo, but in our own different ways.   After all the planet is as old equally to whatever country is writing haiku. :)

Alan

Yes Alan, please share the link

In art... if we were to take one example,  then I would go with Van Gogh and how he included the "ma" into his work.

Pointillism, the technique of using dots/points to create depth was pioneered by Seurat and Signac. There were many many who adopted the technique, to the "T", impressive work and yet, there is the distinct feel that the dots are there to follow the technique but not to really make an aesthetic statement.

Now Van Gogh was already moving away from the traditional styles of the Dutch painters and of course he was experimenting with his brush strokes.
Where does the concept of Ma come in here?

He followed the Pointillists, but he took what was needed, and adapted it to his style.  What we are left with are memorable works,  the earliest being - The Sower - not one of my favourites...but there is a certain elegance in the way he worked from then on, leaving out many details for the viewer to interpret.

I think Matisse too has used the concept of negative space or Ma as we are discussing here to a great advantage. That which is not the  subject is the negative space ...according to the def. What then, is negative space in Matisse's collages?

We are back to where we began, isn't it?  Who is behind the gate, the girl on the tight rope or the person with the camera?
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Here is another link from the Haiku foundation threads :

http://www.thehaikufoundation.org/forum_sm/index.php?topic=2634.0


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I think it is not just haiku but also poetry and ...with social media being the in thing,  Ma is a thing that is rather ancient and non-happening...

QuoteThere is a thorough description of it in Robert D. Wilson's Back to Hokku: A Study of Japanese Aesthetics Relative to Haiku - Study of Japanese Aesthetics: Part I, The Importance of Ma, found in the Haiku Foundation's Digital Library and in Wilson's book, he mentions Denis M. Garrison's use of "dreaming room" in further describing the idea of Ma. In my own understanding, it is what the writer does not say in the haiku but, I suppose, infers it in the most general way that allows the reader to bring their own personal experience to it. However do not go by me, I cannot get it!

Let me get to the one in the Haiku Foundation digital library, Martin. I will be back with a response.  I don't know much of noMa but let us see where this collective reading takes us...

Quote from: martin gottlieb cohen on November 21, 2016, 12:49:53 PM
bubbling krill into the polar light air's sweetness


I use the "bubbling krill" as a hook to bring you into the point of view of a Humpback whale feeding.  Continuing I try to imagine how the Humpback experiences the event through sensory images, but there is no dream room to explore. Haiku is not easy the way I understand it. I am simple, have been struggling for twenty years, and can't understand it.

it makes sense. Thank you.  I see how you have used the haiku to express the point of view of the whale without lending it human tendencies...thank you again for that.


Here is a link, do look at it from 1.55 minutes if in a hurry, though I don't mind watching it from the beginning. 
Looking at the video, I realise what - bubbling krill -  looks like.
Yes, if I were a whale, I guess I would think the polar light air's sweetness because of the bubbling krill,  I suppose.

You have given me a new way to think and explore further. Maybe being the simple makes it easier...  for you to write haiku which are really simple and never easy. True, what you say.


simiann

Hello and  thanks for getting back to the thread.

-- so are you suggesting that the switch of speaker happens in the haiku?  Did I get it right?
     
    -- at first the attendant's voice in L1
   
    --  then the speaker is the simian or ape?


interesting.

where does the third line lead us?
The thought of both being exploited is interesting.  A long time ago, there was this girl who was walking a tight rope about 7 feet above ground. I clicked a foto, through the bars of the gate, and lo,  who was behind the gate in the foto -- was a question that arose in my mind when I saw the picture.

I see that you are arriving at the same thought.

One more clockwise anti-whirr and off you go again with your thoughts please

simiann

Hello Simpleton ...

I just stumbled onto this again.


I like the first one:

ape cage
staring at me
an attendant's reflection




I am curious though:

Why do you need reflection there?

To understand this,  I am the simian, the monkey, I will eventually graduate into the ape ... ;D

so if a monkey
there is the attendant on the other side...
of course the detail of the reflection is more interesting. But it also raises questions as to whether there is a mirror like often there is in research habitats...
or is it a rain water puddle or a moat in an open air zoo to keep the animals free and yet contain them to their place of dwelling...



What do you have to say...Martin Simpleton?

~anna monkey

QuoteI would love to see some examples whether published or ones by you in draft process.

Thank you for the response.  I do not have any idea how to. However, could it be possible that it is haiga and not haiku that lends itself as the form for the purpose...and what haiga can do, maybe haibun can attempt.

Yes,  the old time tales of Andersen and Aesop could help further the thought.

...so like,  when like, the haiku or any of its three-two-one-four line siblings is lending voice to like a chipmunk, how does the poet make it clear that the speaker is the bird or animal in the haiku that does the talking?

Like for instance, if a frog does some speaking and that happens to be the haiku, or the speaker in the haiku is a frog,  how does the poet show that?


:-\

Alan, Meg, I found this very interesting link: http://www.graceguts.com/essays/the-seed-of-wonder

Alan,

QuoteDavid Cobley says:
"Still lifes

...

...There is a beauty and a kind of visual poetry in simple objects placed one against the another. Each speaks to the other of an absent human presence in a silent language of its own."
http://www.davidcobley.com/still-lifes-c5jd

that is very much like the original thought behind haiku, ....no?

QuoteAs molecules are entities with a sense of humour nothing really stands still or isn't life I guess.

;D  makes sense in a subatomic way ...

spilt milk
oil on canvas
still ...life?