The Haiku Foundation Forums

Quote from: Don Baird on March 09, 2012, 07:02:25 PM
Ego: "a person's sense of self-esteem or self-importance."

I posit that if we look at ego in terms of the general definition above, it would be true that an "excess of such a thing" would be an inhibitor, at minimum, to the methodology of natural writing.  There is no question in my mind that a flatulant ego dulls the senses of "what is" within the Tao.  This dulling, through a magnified self importance occurs in athletic performance, music performance, writing poetry and so forth. There's much evidence these days that validates the thoughts "to lose ones self is to find ones self"; "to lose ones skill is to find ones skill."

It might be impossible, at the mercy of a self absorbed ego, to be in tune with nature including, and especially, in a balanced synergy of the human/nature interactive experience (which is inseparable).



edit spelling ...

Yes Don, but my whole point was that what you are calling "ego" is not what Freud meant by the term. It has been corrupted to mean ...well arrogance, or self-centredness, self-absorption, or narcisism, or attention-seeking, or neurotic self-consciousness, or all of the above and anything else that someone disapproves of. Self-esteem is necessary to a healthy mind. A sense of self-worth is necessary to a healthy personality. From a Freudian perspective the ego is necessary. Fortunately Psychology has moved along a pace and we have better models to work with these days.

I take issue with this "ego" thing. We don't possess a 'something' which we can point at as *the ego* and in any case the existence of an 'ego' is theoretical, based on the Freudian Psychological theoretical model, it is not factual. The Spiess quotes seem to reflect that kind of sloppy misunderstood westernized Zen which someone was complaining about elsewhere. What exactly does he mean by "forgetting one's ego" or  "human nature tends to be deflected from its original unity and simplicity by ego and its constrictive and seductive illusions"?

Yes, there is something which can get in the way of 'seeing' haiku with clarity, but to call this something 'ego', (pejoratively, like having an (tyranical) ego at all is a universally bad thing) is quite inaccurate. Often what 'gets in the way' could be instinctual and subconscious aversions or desires; or critical judgements or assumptions of belief. In which case, according to the Freudian model it would be the Id or the super-ego, therefore not the ego at all.

Some of the best haiku shows me the writer as well as the subject. Read Issa, you can almost see him! So if I can see the writer how can they have expunged their 'ego' in order to be a "...testament of an aspect of the world process itself, apart from any intervention of human ego." ?  Isn't he making a false separation between the "world process" and "human..." (whatever) here? ...apart from being rather pretentious in addition.  ::)

Sloppy Zen, sloppy psychology, sloppy language, sloppy teaching. Whatever it is that actually happens, attempting to extinguish one's ego (assuming you can find it) won't get you there. Learning how to observe, how to look deeper, might.

toppled lego
another failed attempt
at world domination

Alan Summers

domination over
the priest removes
his dog collar

John McManus

collar -
the spring fever
of lipstick

Don


lipstick
at the murder scene
plum blossom

Sue

...and music Alan  ;)

It depends. Issa was not above using very basic words, for bodily functions particularly. Colin Stewart Jones frequently uses 'street language', Marlene Mountain has used the F word in a few that I have seen. If you were intending to use a word which is usually unacceptable for minors and polite poetry groups then it may limit possible posting, publishing and performance opportunities. However, there are some areas of western culture where it would be not only acceptable but commonplace to use the F word in particular and a whole raft of words that you won't hear at a Vicar's tea party but which are an acceptable part of youth culture language. Unless you were writing specifically for street-language culture then of course it will be shocking and offensive to some people. What do you expect? That's no reason not to use it though if you think it is a necessary part of your poem.

So are you going to show it to us?

Sue

Quote from: Larry Bole on February 21, 2012, 06:31:26 AM
P.S. And speaking of Zen not relying on concepts, I'm reminded of Krishnamurti's anecdote:

QuoteYou may remember the story of how the devil and a friend of his were walking down the street, when they saw ahead of them a man stoop down and pick up something from the ground, look at it, and put it away in his pocket. The friend said to the devil, "What did that man pick up?" "He picked up a piece of the truth," said the devil. "That is a very bad business for you, then," said his friend. "Oh, not at all," the devil replied, "I am going to help him organize it."

Thus we have Soto Zen, Rinzai Zen, Obaku Zen...

So funny! I had to Google Obaku, never having heard of it before. It sounds like a hoot. Ming vases and chanting in 'approximated' Brummy accents! Terry Pratchett would love it!

Sue

Quote from: Larry Bole on February 21, 2012, 06:14:14 AM

I have been reflecting on your additional comment that "borrowing metaphors without pinning them down to concepts seems to me to be all part of the Zen way of doing things." 

"The Zen way of doing things"--what a concept!

Larry   ;)

Lol! Oh I know... but I'm only a learner and barefoot water skiing is a little above my pay grade

;)

Hi Larry,

I find myself in affinity with Chiyo-ni, I believe she had a family before shaving her head. Maybe I will never shave mine but she speaks to me with a distinctive human/female voice of things I recognise and may share with her. I am not qualified to distinguish between one historical sect of Buddhism and another, and really I'm not very interested in religious denominational differences. Religions tend to add stuff which they then need to defend. I speak only from a kind of universal recognition of things which endure. It is that which amazes me about haiku. We can sit in our 21st century homes and hear the clear crystal voice of recognition down the centuries.


cool clear water
and fireflies that vanish
that is all there is...

speaks to me of Sunyata, of a state of mental calm in which the self has slipped away and only the calm water of clarity and the odd fleeting thing (to which we are no longer connected or interested) is left to be observed. If all the things in life which trouble us were reduced to fireflies how untroubled we would be!

one must bend
in the floating world -
snow on the bamboo

As the bamboo bends with the weight of snow, so we learn to bend with the weight of the work and concerns of the world. This world is insubstantial and flowing, she describes it as "floating" and in so doing distances herself from its insubstantial transience. She is in the world but not of it; flexible, and as transient as the snow.

over the flowing water
chasing its shadow -
the dragonfly

This makes me smile. It reminds me of times when I have observed myself chasing my own shadow. Chiyo seems to fly higher and have more of the view but still the slightly sardonic observation of the foolishness of the mind transmits itself in this haiku. I love that. There is something akin to the way one looks at one's children in this. It isn't a judgemental or critical view of something that ought to be something else, but rather a joy in the learning and exploration and playfulness - and of accepting things just as they are and loving them for it. Even when that something is ourselves.

a hundred different gourds
from the mind
of one vine

The vine is a common metaphor in Christianity too. And this one shows just how closely linked I feel to Chiyo and her long-ago-thought-thoughts. The vine IS what connects us. This living thing, this Dharma. There is no separation, no difference, no distance; we are fruit of the vine. Just as the mind of creativity creates in Chiyo's work so it can in mine. That is, once I learn to get out of the way and to write with the clarity I see in her work which I so admire.

the passing year --
irritating things
are also flowing water

So practical this, so human. There is no overlay of pretension or religious dogma, just the ordinary everyday practicality of living. Everyday life is the way. Irritations pass, all things pass.  Even our irritations are part of the flow. Its Ok. Its all of a oneness. Today, for Chiyo in this haiku, is a new year -  and tomorrow is always a new day. This moment is also a new one and we move from one molecule of time to the next seamlessly. I suppose "going with the flow" is a borrowing from Taoism but borrowing metaphors without pinning them down to concepts seems to me to be all part of the Zen way of doing things.

Sue

The Buddhist nun Chiyo-ni wrote some exceptional Zen haiku. This is one of my favourites...

cool clear water
and fireflies that vanish
that is all there is...

and more...

one must bend
in the floating world -
snow on the bamboo

over the flowing water
chasing its shadow -
the dragonfly

a hundred different gourds
from the mind
of one vine

the passing year --
irritating things
are also flowing water

there are more here http://thegreenleaf.co.uk/HP/Women/c/Chiyo/00haiku.htm

autumn dusk
a faint sound scent
of fox

Alan


fox tracks
only the crunch of snow
for company

pat


company lunch
my boss measures
his sandwich

John


sandwiched between
a Kindle and the Times
on the underground

Sue

used bookshop
immersed in genarations
of old dust

Adelaide

old dust
we become closer friends
this hot and cold night

Alan

night owl
along the roof tops
the sound of fog

Don

fog horn
marks time amongst
anchored boats

Sue

side walk slide slip the crab waltz boogie step
                                        - Sue

step by step
the cat learns how to catch
from the koi pond
                   - Alan


pond clouds
and cattail fluff
white on blue
                - Pat

blue ribbons
amongst the debris
New Year
               - Sue

who is this 'we'?

if what you mean is 'sub-textual alternative readings', a 'message', and 'allusion' then I personally use them all the time. As do many others. I have even been known, on occasion, to use so-called "vulgar language". This POV which you seem to be espousing seems to be stuck in a narrow and elitist rather tidy little view of haiku, Alan.

There is nothing intrinsically valuable about using the word 'fart' in a haiku, or any other word considered 'vulgar'. Unless of course it is there merely for its shock value ...which may have some contextual value. It is an honest enough word. Issa uses it well. However, in England only pre-adolescent boys find such words inherently funny. On the wit-scale poems about poopy pants score very low on my scales. But here, I can't find the ones I did a few months ago but I'll rattle a few off for you....

sweeping
the fallen leaves
pissing into the wind

Father Ted
dead
feck fecking feck

the Queen
did her family all fart
to the speech?



Sue

Really? So is this an in-joke only for those who speak Japanese?

or can we ordinary mortals share in it?

I'm sure that's a very profound statement, but...  what on earth did he say?