If you click the "Log In" button and get an error, use this URL to display the forum home page:

Update any bookmarks you have for the forum to use this URL--not a similar URL that includes "www."
Welcome to The Haiku Foundation forum! Some features and boards are available only to registered members who are logged in. To register, click Register in the main menu below. Click Login to login. Please use a Report to Moderator link to report any problems with a board or a topic.

Main Menu

Show posts

This section allows you to view all posts made by this member. Note that you can only see posts made in areas you currently have access to.

Show posts Menu

Messages - chibi575

Quote from: colin stewart jones on December 18, 2010, 07:35:32 PM
but surely anime comes from the French

i do like some Japanese anime (manga) but given your arguments
you had better find another word to describe it  ???

ok lol

col :)

Col... ok ... you've pulled my rope (which direction, I'm not sure)   ;D  But, my point is anime is a DIFFERENT word than "cartoon" or that "manga" is a different term than "comic book".  You don't see what I'm talking about is the name change is justified due to the change?  Of course presently in the USA "comic books" have become "graphic novels" due mostly to a more positive spin; but, they are now mixing the names "comic book" and "graphic novel".  The change is OWNERSHIP... the USA has decided through the enfluence of "manga" to separate the two by calling the taxonomy: comic book => manga (Japanese centric); and, comic book => graphic novel (USA centric).  I ask no more than to consider this approach for: haiku => ??? in English speaking peoples.  We need to take OWNERSHIP because it IS a DIFFERNT genre!!  Why is this so hard?

Ta Col

chibi  8)

Japanese uses the implied pronoun in their writing of poetry and in general because of the structure of their language.  Well, when translators are pressed to transfer that to English they will use with some justification pronouns.  Many translations therefore show the pronouns that in the original are not there.  Sometimes this works, and, sometimes this is forced.  Most Japanese poems, such as haiku, restricted to the 5-7-5 rule do not use an implied pronoun simply because a more formal language representation of the poem may not fit.  This has been my observation on re-translating Japanese (although I have translated from and translated to tens of times, not hundreds of times, so I consider my personal observation limited, but, I believe is a verifiable pattern).

The pronoun in English may not be the best used in short poetry because using pronouns tend to close the poetry and are auhor centric... my, I, we, our, etc.,.  I generally have found a trap in using pronouns for short poetry for this reason if you are trying to write nature centric poetry.  This is also up to a particular author's style.  One of the techniques I found freeing in poetry is to remove the author centric style and focus more on the nature centric style.

Let me sight Shiki's example (translated) used previously (thanks, Don):

under my sandal souls
the sweet smell
of meadow grasses

I would like to see the original Japanese to see if "my" was actually used as well as "souls" (but this may be a typo).

Let's assume "my" was used, then, I might question was Shiki's intent his particular sandal or did he mean someone's sandal?  Let me also say, translator's have to compromise constantly and decide not only whether this understandable in the translation and will be forced to take readability over accuracy at times (because author intent and meaning in poetry is especially difficult).

Now, let me take another sited example (again translated) (thank you, cat):

my fishing line --
the summer moon

Again I question the "my" and I would like to see the original Japanese it could have read:

fishing line --
summer moon!

The adding of the "the" is definitely a translation choice as well as punctuation.  We English readers are more comfortable with pronouns and articles, and so translators are too, but, they usually are comfort food added to the original Japanese.

Hmmm... I was a little abrupt there... my finger-mind-frustration link some time takes over.

Colin... in your reply, if I can use your analogy of film... let's take for example anime.  Hmmm... that's what I'm talking about.  Why not call it just "cartoon"?  Well... it is different to deserve a name of its own.

Cat... I realize that you're supporting the merits of Colin's reply.  I agree to the facts represented in Colin's reply resonates some of your previous positions.  No problem in that, although, I guess it fueled my frustraton in myself that I am not getting the focus conveyed on my concern.

Ok... I think I'm seeing by both Colin and Cat's reply... I just don't get it? 

I think this is key to my disconnect.  What you say as not important, seems to me important.

Again we're talking about the merit of the effort.  That's fine, but, why reply?  If you don't want to help me move the weight, don't pull my rope  :o

If you do, then please reply to the my comment:

If there were a separate genre or genres for non-Japanese poetry based upon Japanese haiku, what would be some of the components you would want the genre to contain or not contain?  If you could also give your reasoning for each component within your reply.

(no offense is intended to either of you, i'm struggling with focus here, what other way can I say it)

Sometimes certain poems "pop" and their content almost instantly absorbed.  Sometimes the layers are like petals on a bud slowly blooming into a blossom.

May I ask what makes some poems easier to "get" than others?

Is it possible to layer the process in reading and re-reading a poem, that is to say, on first read is one impression, then on second read there is another impression.  Then, do you feel there is a separation and in essence they have become two different poems?

In some reading of short poems it is traditional to read aloud the poem twice, what do you suppose is the reason for this practice?

I can see that I need to try another approach towards the subject of a separate genre for non-Japanese poetry based upon the Japanese haiku as it concerns English short poetry (perhaps by focusing on English, first, we can at least narrow the discussion, but, the intent is not to say English only, because this may apply to any non-Japanese language/culture).

Let me ask the question to any that would like to reply: If there were a separate genre or genres for non-Japanese poetry based upon Japanese haiku, what would be some of the components you would want the genre to contain or not contain?  If you could also give your reasoning for each component within your reply.

Thank you for your kindnesses.
Quote from: Don Baird on December 17, 2010, 01:55:00 AM
Thanks Chibi.   8)

take care,

ps... look over my sites.  I'd be glad to assist you with yours etc.  All the best, always.  Don


Thank you for your offer of assistance.  I will keep that in mind. 

Happy Holidays and a joyous New Year!
Thanks for further references, Lynne.

There is another author that I feel is highly underrated, Robin D. Gill.  His style is enjoyably unorthodox (in my opinion) but he stuffs so much in his work and his translator experience of 20 years in Japan gives a rare insight.  I recommend any of his books.  I would not recommend his works for the very beginner, but, more for the dedicated experienced poet familiar with Japanese poetry.  I have been reading/re-reading, "Rise Ye Sea Slugs!" for the last 2 years (I'm not finished yet as I read only occasioinaly) but when I do (because I like to do my own translation of the Japanese presented in his work) it sometimes takes up to 30 minutes to do an indepth absorbtion of what "Keigu" (his haigou) has to say on a page.

Happy Holidays!
There is an excellent book by the late Paul O. Williams, "The Nick of Time: Essays on the Haiku Aesthetics" I would recommend.  Paul had a very easy and undrestandable style that can get complex concepts across.  Some of the table of contents chapters I recommend: Tontoism in American Haiku, Loafing Alertly: Observation and Haiku, The Lasting and the Ephemeral in Haiku; Haiku Memory; A Dialog on Baloney Haiku; and The Limits of Haiku Form.  I recommend the whole book but these were my personal favorite chapters.

I was lucky to have met and talked with Paul at HNA in Winston-Salem, 2007, the year before his passing.  I really found him insightful and his book useful and thought provoking.

Quote from: Don Baird on December 17, 2010, 01:17:30 AM
Thanks! I see the change.  :)

Your original premise for this subject/thread:  "In other words, if it is not written originally in Japanese it is not haiku."

With a strong stance such as this, of course people are going to "get into it" here.  That's such a powerful opinion it could hurt some folks feelings, especially, if they are new to writing haiku.  I empathize with them and feel badly that they come here to learn haiku and instead, they are told by a very well respected haijin that their newly learned art isn't haiku.

Also, it seems particularly poignant in that this site is called "The Haiku Foundation"........  

Would you consider opening a new thread to avoid confusion and delete or lock this one?  It would help avoid confusion as to what the subject is here.  Currently, if someone new comes in, they are going to read your opening statements and then start up with this old argument -- then we'll all end up in it again.  :(  

The new thread could be called:  Japanese Nuances in Writing Haiku?  Or something like that.  Then, we could all study together and share how each of us perceives the role of such things as kigo, kireji, ma and etc.  I'd love to hear your thoughts on these things and I think you do have a lot to share.  And, there are many haijin here that have extensive experience to share. I think that would be a dynamite discussion.

What do you think?  I'm in for a thread like that.

all the best,

ps:  as far as websites, this is what I mean you could do but different subject of course:

You could develop a site to specifically announce your beliefs regarding non Japanese haiku and what it should be called.  Then, you could contact jr highs, high schools, and colleges to look it over and try to influence it through the proper channels.  Personally, I want to keep it haiku and at 63, I'm probably going too.  LOLL  But, for you ... maybe you have a passion to see this through.  Take care ... just thinking out loud.  Nothing here is intended to be sarcastic.  I apologize in advance if I've worded anything that is ambiguous in that regard.  Don

Don, you've made some valid points and I would support you opening a subject in discussing the points you outlined.  Also, this forum header is called "In-Depth Discussions" and would imply a certain pre-knowledge of haiku and haiku history.  My replies and discussion has not taken into account that beginners would be attracted to the forum and infact I should have emphasized this in the beginning... "Beginners Beware"?  If it has caused undue concern I apologize.  Thanks for your insights.
Don, I've made the changes and it was easier than I intially thought.

Now, just to be clear, our discussion on HH was never about a new genre name.  It was about the qualifying components of a haiku and if you did not have certain key components how could it be by definition a haiku.

The genre name is a proposal for solution allowing more freedom in the short poem by taking direct ownership and defining what's allowed in the resulting genre.  This particular proposal is recent from me.  I think less than a couple of months old.

Anyway, Don, thank you for your interest, but, now that I know you do not support the genre idea, it is perfectly fine to stop replying as to the idea's popularity or merit.  I know where you stand and it's fine, really.
Quote from: cat on December 16, 2010, 10:28:32 PM
Hello, chibi,

Similar to Don, I thought this was a thread for discussing the merits of changing the name of English-language haiku or leaving it alone.  Oh well.  My mistake.

If you succeed with the name change, I am sure we will all hear about it.

Until then, over and out,

Thanks Cat, I felt that we stopped talking about the new genre and started more questioning just about anything I replied as to its worth.  Site: popularity of idea... what's with that?  I was hoping for more discussion about perhaps why haiku is haiku, the Shiki connection, and how he came up with support for his proposal of haiku from the roots of hokku.  There seemed to be few comments about actually naming the new genre.  Of course, I figured the forum was getting more personal about my ideas and motivations.  So, I tried to refocus the direction, and I hope that will work. 

I was hoping for some ideas on the support the genre idea, but, certainly and only if a member replying supported the idea. 

I have appreciated your replies and I fully understand if you no longer contribute as I am fairly sure you do not support the genre change (and that's fine really).
Thank you all for understanding.  Happy Holidays and a Joyous New Year.

Don... I can't seem to figure out how to edit quotes.  I noticed what you observed and I don't know how it happened or how to correct it.  I will try some things.

out on a limb --
songless air

Pretty much sums it up... as I was walking towards the beach where I observed the wind swept seafoam shivered, a mockingbird wintering on the island seemed seasonally silent in our current cold snap.  This is an example of a "phrase-poem" because there is no kigo for mockingbird in the Japanese saijiki, there is a forced "cut" by has been tried to be equivalent in English symbology, " -- ". and probably you would have to explain the expression, "songless air" because in Japanese this is difficult to translate or find equivalent fitting Japanese.  To resolve the kigo issue is to use the current approach to make mockingbird a regional kigo for the southern USA.  In Japan, the bird would not occur, but, is quite common in the southern USA.  Although, "out on a limb" is an idiom for being in a place with precarious support, the literal equivalent does not occur in Japan not even in an equivalent cliche.

I am an engineer by vocation, and, form-fit-function of a part, component, or sub-system meeting qualified constraints and requirements is accepted as an equivalent.  This thinking has a great enfluence on "if it ain't Japanese, it ain't haiku" because I contend the form-fit-function contraints have not been met (or could possibly be met) by transported "haiku".  An example of this is evidenced by my poem, for example. Another way to put this is the cliche... "fitting a round peg in a square hole".

I know most of the poets probably do not understand these engineering concepts to the degree an engineer would.  Even so, I feel I can't share my frustration with them at the same level, and, maybe I shouldn't try.  I wish I did not feel so compelled, but I do.

Eventually, in this life or the next, I feel, the new genre idea will eventually be embraced.

I will take non-reply as an answer of non-support, but, if you do decide to reply, please, either ask for clarification of and/or offer contributions to the proposal, not, whether the proposal is right or wrong in your judgement, nor popular or unpopular.  I will not return any reply other than those focused on construction of the proposal.  Popularity issues sway me so little enough to warrant non-reply.  I welcome openly any replies meeting the above criteria.  In other words, it is your right to not like what I've proposed, but, I will not reply to assesments unless they are on the proposals components.

For example, you may ask the importance of kigo, or why are these components important in Japanese haiku.  But not, liking or not liking the idea of kigo.  I hope this will help the comments focus on issues I will reply to.

Thank you.  :) ;) :D ;D >:( :( :o 8) ??? ::) :P :-[ :-X :-\ :-* :'(

PS... it is fine for me to get no replies... I will simply take that as non-support and move on.
Quote from: Don Baird on December 16, 2010, 05:17:56 AM
LOL... Dennis...

Out of curiosity, what headway have you made with anyone at any forum with this concept of yours.  I've seen this argument a thousand times (usually you bringing it up, :) )  in different forums.  Do you have a following with the concept?  Is there a website folks can go to in order to hear your expertise and see your complete argument?   And, is there a following for you regarding the change of name for hokku?  Are you doing well with that side of your argument also.

I appreciate your indepth opinions.  They're interesting, minimally.  

all my best


Don, the idea of a new genre?  Thousands of posts?  Actually, I've rarely and only just recently realized this a possible direction.  So, it may be some one else!  So far, as I can testify only a few know this proposal and I feel it a small sample.  It is difficult to convince readers of my good intentions. 

SMF spam blocked by CleanTalk