The Haiku Foundation Forums

GRITS!!!

What the hell?   ::)

hominy yankee


Please forgive the tacky (sticky and cultural faux pas) of this post, but, I've proposed "grits" as a regional seasonal word, perhaps as the "all season" variety, although mostly cold weather seasons depending on the region.

Now, what does that have to do with THF Subject: Lost and Found in Translation?  Just try to translate that meaning from my short poem at the beginning of this post without having some idea and history of "grits", "hominy", and "yankee" in relationship to The South. 

So, Lorin and others, questioning relevance of the "kigo" discussion in this particular forum... I rest my kigo in your saijiki!!

I love haiku... I write/read/translate haiku and ELH ("forku" as Colin coined it)  ;D

I MUST use a saijiki and dictionary in translating Japanese poems or risk totally missing the feelings-meanings of the author; and, for that same reason as someone caring about feelings-meanings in others poems it would help tremendously if a concise world encyclopedia of such would exist for other readers/writers/translators (not to mention editors, bless there halos and black hearts).

[The opinions expressed by me in this forum are soley mine and not necessarily the sponsors of THF.  I take sole/soul responsibility for its content.  ::) ]

Now, if I could only figure out how to be the character Bill Murray played in "Lost in Translation"   :o

You are welcome, Lorin.  Your retranslation of the "parrot/parrakeet" made me think of articles in Serbian, if similar to Russian, they are not used, so, the English translation beats are 6-7-6 if you drop the articles from L1 and L3 then it is 5-6-5... then I noticed the pause which be a beat if in the center, so, dropping the article in L2 and using the cut as a beat, brings the English to 5-7-5, thus:

moment I return
from beach - my voice becomes
chirps of two parrots

Maybe the parrot choice over parrakeet is one of beat count consideration?

I also wonder if the Serbian beats are 5-7-5?  I know that the 5-7-5 beats may fit Serbian and not English.

My penchant for nits ... make me a nit-wit, eh?

 ???
Don't forget that there are no regional saijiki in Japan. One nation, one saijiki. <== Lorin

Lorin, I believe as a matter of fact there are regional sections to the a Japanese saijiki.  The Japanese are well aware of, for example, that hanami (cherry blossom viewing) happens at different times in different regions and at different altitudes and climes.  Therefore, it is important in understanding Japanese haiku, from what region the poem has been written when using "hanami" as kigo.  There, also, are regional kigo with encyclopedic explanation and example.  

I believe, also, there is a process by which a word/phrase candidate is accepted officially to the saijiki (sometimes there is considerable debate).  I am not completely familiar with the process, but, I suspect it is similar to EL dictionary commitiees for sanctioning words and definitions to be included in an official unabridged dictionary.

I suppose you have seen a Japanese saijiki?  Big thing... usually a hardcover and expensive; but, now one is available completely electronically.  I would venture to say that Dr. Gabi Greve is a better source for what is in a Japanese saijiki as I have only seen one briefly in my stay in Japan and only the abridged pocket editions on ginko with other haiku writers in Japan.  Unfortunately, my reading skill for Japanese is limited to mostly recognizing "の", so, I relied on their patient and gracious translations/transliterations and paraverses.

This may seem mean spirited (my apology), but if you are not concerned about kigo and what is potentially lost and found in translations (of Japanese poetry) for the lack of understanding kigo, then, I am very confused about your comments? If you are truly not concerned, then silence would be a powerful verification of that feeling.

To be honest, I am continuely questioning direction and goal in the "haiku community" throughout the world... it is my curse and my blessing.  I love haiku.

As to seminal work and effort on gathering and presenting kigo and seasonal reference words and phrases, my hat is off to Dr. Gabi; and, her work would be a great foundation to use for the saijiki-kigo "idea" throughout the world.

(An aside to Gabi sama -- I am gathering more information on indigenous words and phrases (potentially to qualify as candidates) in the Southeastern region of the USA.  I have asked a writers group, The Living Poets Society, of which I am a member, to give example of such words and phrases.  I hope to have some reply at our next monthly meeting.)

Yours in poetry.

Ciao... Chibi

My vote:

Here's Petar's haiku in Bulgarian with an English translation by the poet. It first appeared in Ginyu #28 (October 2005).


най-дългата нощ
ван краде очите
на снежен човек

the longest night
a raven steals the eyes
of a snowman

Although, this short poem is older (2005) than the other (2010), and that may have significance to me because I like more the classic style.  In that it has two "kigo" (the longest night) and (snowman), the rule being that the first is the emphasis and the second is supporting, so, there is harmony.  Note: that it is hard to master this harmonic resonation of two kigo in the same short poem.

The visual/circumstance/scene flows with vortex, to me, with "night", "raven", "eyes", and "snowman" (Frosty the famous snowman had eyes of coal -- my childhood reference).  Also, the night-raven jux with the eyes-snow (black - white contrast) works to add further intrigue and depth.

Mosly, when I read a poem if it "snaps" into view, it gets a very favorable nod.  I nod to it over the other.

Hi Josie,

You've just seen comments from two people I admire and respect in the short poem community.  I recommend you give yourself some time to digest their advise.  It is an excellent guide and start.

As for me, I'm going to do so myself.

Yours in poetry...

Ciao... chibi

Quote from: David Lanoue on January 24, 2011, 09:33:39 AM
A reminder: the important thing about a Seashell Game, a concept borrowed from Basho, isn't so much who wins but the reasons that the judges give for their decisions--giving us insight into what constitutes a good haiku for them.

This match gives us the chance to judge and think about, side by side, two of the haiku that have generated the most discussion when I have presented them in workshops. One is by San Francisco poet Fay Aoyagi:

ants out of a hole--
when did I stop playing
the red toy piano?

And the other is by Colombian poet Umberto Senegal:

En el candil cadáveres   
de zancudos. Alguien solloza
en la habitación.

mosquito corpses in the lamp
someone sobbing
in the room

I presented and led a discussion of Fay's haiku at the Haiku North America Conference in Ottawa, August 7, 2009--at a session titled, "Reading the New Haiku." In a revised edition of this workshop, presented for the Southern California Haiku Study Group in Pasadina, July 17, 2010--Umberto Senegal's haiku joined the line-up, sparking lots of talk. Most recently, in the session, "Reading the New Haiku 3" at the Haiku Society of America South Regional Meeting in Hot Springs, Arkansas (November 6, 2010), once again these haiku were considered and explored. Since none of these discussions were recorded, they exist now only in the memories of participants. One nice thing about our Seashell Game is the fact that our ideas, feelings and associations generated by these two contemporary haiku will be preserved in writing.

So, between now and Feburary 6th, please VOTE for one haiku and (most importantly!) give your reasons for choosing it. And tell your friends to join in. The more voices, the more perspectives, the better.

I won't vote, but I certainly have my own ideas about these haiku. This time, I'll save my impressions for later in the discussion.

Have fun!

I've tried not to read the replies of other voters and the following represents only original feelings (although some influence became inevitable as is my habit to move my scan bar down the page).

I vote for:

En el candil cadáveres   
de zancudos. Alguien solloza
en la habitación.

(Bable Fish translation: In the oil lamp corpses of mosquitos. Somebody sobs in the room.)

There are two Englished paraverses, yet, I like the Spanish.  I'm put off a bit by the punctuiation, though.

In the English paraverses presented in this forum I think it important to note "oil lamp" and "living room" (poetic license in "living room" as the Spanish "sala de estar".  These phrases have cultural layers that may add nuance to the reader.  In the case of "oil lamp" brought back camping trips and mosquito hums in many childhood adventures and places.  The ambiquity in Umberto Senegal's words, opens to interpretation many elements of scene and sense: oil smell (coal oil? a oil used in the old coal oil or kerosene), the yellowish color of the light from the mantled wick flame, the smell of "cremated" mosquito, the sobs in the "living" room...(and on and on). I think this a masterful poem, indeed!  The scene is opened to setting interpretations: romance or injury or murder or ... (and on and on).  All this could've been settled and somewhat resolved if the author had given more information as to circumstance, but, the poem expands exponentially without that information.  Perhaps, that the intent of the author?  Although, in the traditional haikuish vein, I feel, to honor that tradition, perhaps, a note of scene setting may have been easier on this reader's brain <<wink>>.

e.xp.onen.tially.fibonacci!

Lorin,

Sorry, I guess it's a guy thing, not a South thing... ref. Karate Kid, Mr. Miyagi... "wax on ... wax off... etc., ...).

ciao  8)

.
What
the bloody hell?!
Atom Heart Mother

I am enjoying this comment model of the whisper game!

word on - word off ... are you kidding me?  (all respects to Kesuke Miyagi sensei)

;D

Quote from: colin stewart jones on December 19, 2010, 03:59:58 AM
hi david and thanks

sorry though
i think i put you on a bum steer by saying this was from proverbs
i had to look up my bible to check this and it is in the Psalms

loosely based on Ps 81:16

...and with honey out of the rock should I have satisfied thee.

nice to meet you also

col :)

As I've was reading throught the comments... and coming upon col's comment a vivid image recalled from memory of my first trip to Japan.  On a ginko (nature walk) near Akita visiting the graves of some diciples of Basho, I noticed bees (this being early autumn) around one of the granite grave stones which had developed a crack over the ages, and, from this crack a stream of honey with bees entering and exiting above it!!

This moment has been a niggle of memory and I believe a poem or set of poems may eventually come from it.  Especially, from the resonation that which col wrote:

"loosely based on Ps 81:16

...and with honey out of the rock should I have satisfied thee."

honey
from the autumn bees --
graveside flowers

autumn sunset:
golden honey seeps
from a gravestone

who would have thought? -- honey from a gravestone

even a sweet life ends -- honeycomb grave

-- word play --

divine design -- the bees honeycomb a catacomb

My apologies for my comment BEEing a bit abuzz!

Quote from: David Lanoue on January 15, 2011, 06:00:05 PM
...

原子心母ユニットバスで血を流す
genshi shinbo unitto basu de chi wo nagasu

Atom Heart Mother
in the prefab bathroom
spurts blood

As for the sy[n]tax (since Eve asked), the Genshi Shinbo (Atom Heart-Mother) is the subject, as I read it. This subject, located in the prefab bathroom, is spurting or gushing blood. At least that's my understanding of it. Maybe a Japanese person would see all kinds of different nuances and levels. But my question is: Does the poem work in English? Does it bring us somewhere? Is the journey worthwhile? And which haiku, "Atom Heart Mother" or "in my luggage" packs the bigger punch?

I won't vote since I'm the moderator. Let's see if anyone else weighs in between now and the deadline (Jan. 23rd).

David, as to Japanese structure in the poem, 血を流す, is it not "blood spurts" を being the particle identifying  血 as the subject?  Of course, your answer will be my lesson in using particles... hee hee.

I think you've proposed more than one question:

Does the poem work in English?  I believe so if you mean by work that the poem can be "paraversed" from Japanese to English.

Does it bring us somewhere?  Yes.  I feel it brings us to many somewheres at several layers.

Is the journey worthwhile?  The worth of a journey is in the journey and sometimes may be yet determined by the other journeys it starts.

Which has the bigger punch (I paraphrase)?  The first is a MOTHER of a poem!  ;D

Thanx again David sensei.  I am having fun.

Quote from: colin stewart jones on January 15, 2011, 02:51:45 PM
... so the short answer to your initial question is NO ...

haiku ... a short answer of know

"... and that's the truth ... plthplthplth" as one of Lily Tomln's child-characters, Edith Ann says

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jJMKupYF14I&feature=related

Don sensei,

As you know, my first Japanese haiku sensei, Fujita Akegarasu, had given this axiom/lesson, "The best haiku enters an empty heart."  This evoked layers of learning for me.  Empty, is a good start.  

(Sorry, I could not pick from your three proposed options... and you did not give me the option, "None of the above."  :D )

If anyone would like to continue further lessons from Fujita Akegarasu sama, drop me a private message, as I'm affraid the forum does not provide a platform for such.  In fact, I have experimented with using SKYPE as part of the platform, which, gives a somewhat suitable simulation of a haiku circle situation in Japan, in that it may allow the interaction between sensei and deshii at the realtime audio visual level.  

Truth, just by writing we are already outside the realm of truth.

If I can feel an affinity for the emotion in the writer's poem, that is my litmus.  Then, most of those poems that meet that requirement are usually of an actual event.  The degree of truth is usully high in such poems.  Yet, I wonder what is the quantitative threshold... 10%, 33.3_%, etc.,...?  Though, I think the scale may be logrithmic and asymptotic, never getting to 100%.  The threshold may be dependent on many factors between the reader(s) and the writer.  I feel, though, "Truth in haiku (Japanese as well as other languages) is possibly a literary koan.

Now... my brain is starting to hurt :))

Lorin brings a point about ELH that is relatively rare, but, more common in haiku from Japan, that being, historical/cultural references.  Considering the newness of the literature and cultural events associated with the USA's 200+years, as compared to Japan's older literature (if we start with just the Manyoshu) 1700+years, the USA has less to draw from.  Japanese poetry was for over a thousand years the realm of the royalist and warrior class.  The royalist especially in the manyoshu model was steeped in historical literary reference taking the lead from Chinese/Korean poetry.

In the Atom Heart Mother poem, this is done through referencing directly a title of the Pink Floyd band album.  I think that the use of historical reference in ELH will become less rare in time as more awareness of world events (naturally) increase.

An rather recent example of this was as Carlos mentioned at the HSA Regional Conference, Hot Springs.  A few poets were composing their poems using "Atom Heart Mother".  Of course, only those that had read discussion at David Lanoue's site as well had attended the conference knew of the reference without an explanation.

I look forward to such historical infusions in future short poetry.  I think it good form to use such techniques.  I venture to guess those that have barely began to explore the world of haiku and haikuish poetry would not need note for referencing Bashou's old pond phrases used in any short poem. 

What is the sound
of one frog jumping?
.... [haiku]

-- chibi (contemporary, original on the header page for "happyhaiku")

Perhaps, there would be no need of note to explain the reference to "koan" and Basho in the above?