The Haiku Foundation Forums

Quote from: Field Notes on August 06, 2014, 07:11:24 PM

SNIP

     
war dead
exit out of a blue mathematics

     -- Sugimura Seirinshi (trans. Richard Gilbert and Ito Yuki)


SNIP

Thank you so much Peter for creating this space, and that we can discuss and breakdown various matters, but in particular, for me, 'blue mathematics' and touching on the color blue in other haiku away from the 'norm of colour'.


Why does 'blue mathematics' continue to work for me after hundreds of re-readings?   Just that some haiku I read, can be read that many times, as much as summer grasses can be, despite the fact it was not anti-war, but perhaps a completely neutral poem.

Yes, true, in the English versions of Basho's verse there are no higher register words yet 'blue mathematics' contains one higher register, to a degree, and the combination, at least in the English version, of 'blue' and 'mathematics' might appear to be a phrase in a higher register than necessary, yet that 'phrase' haunts me, as calculations are constantly made regarding counter-aggressive actions such as the recent attacks against ISIS in Iraq for instance.  What group of politicians and bureaucrats would not consider the effect on a political election sometimes over and beyond the actual need for action to defend non-combative civilisations?

Basho was an envoy, and a double agent. Yes, it appears so.  His double life was being a poet and not a stooge for the more urbanised group of people in his time.  Just as Sugimura Seirinshi has not forgone his duties as a poet by being a stooge for the growing corporate companies who wanted Japan plunged into war for territory.

"If all men lead mechanical, unpoetical lives, this is the real nihilism, the real undoing of the world."

Reginald Horace Blyth (1898 - 1964)

Source: Zen Quotes
Contributed by: Zaady

Thanks Agent Provocateur (and Richard Gilbert)

It's been great to dialogue with Paul Miller, and that our last two emails are posted here.   I have to say I am still deeply moved by the blue mathematics haiku.  True, we have an intense public season of mourning and examination regarding the First World War, and how calculating British Generals and politicians were in disposing of British troops.   I'd say it was the equivalent of Corporate Manslaughter at the very least.

Here's the last email I sent to Paul:

Hi Paul,

Dealing a hand of emotive cards in such a short verse as haiku with all
its demands is not an easy task.

I think Richard Gilbert's Poems of Consciousness made me broaden my
appreciation of haiku styles, although it was fairly broad before, but
being a Virgo, my perfection is being forced open. His book really pushed
me, and also I've got to see more Japanese haiku in translation.

I'm often sensitive to too much architrave, it really has to earn its
right to embellish.  As a former Painter and Decorator I've painted or
restored a few architraves in my time.  Architrave:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Architrave

I have seen a lot of haiku adopt the color blue, from the famous blue
apple series:

deep underground--
the blue apple reflecting
billions of suns

Scott Metz
Ginyu 42 (2009)


blue apple
it gives birth
to a mirror

Scott Metz
Ginyu 42 (2009)


cloudless
a day balanced
on the blue apple

Scott Metz
Ginyu 42 (2009)

http://roadrunnerhaikublog.wordpress.com/2012/03/25/how-do-you-like-them-apples/



And other ways of using blue, or subverting the accepted order of
syntax/semantics etc...
http://www.shampoopoetry.com/shampoothirtyeight/metz.htm

The influence is probably all Belgian, even from the Japanese. :-)

I can't say academically why the blue mathematics connects to me, or why
the blue sharks of Kaneko, or the blood group (although I'm B Rhesus
Positive, and very much a loner and outsider at times) and perjury haiku
of Fumio means so much to me.


ni-ju oku kônen no gishyô      omae no B-gata

twenty billion light-years of perjury:      your blood type is "B"

Hoshinaga Fumio


It might hinge on injustice born out of reading DC and Marvel comics as a
child, alongside Dickens and Shakespeare.  The sense of right and wrong in
mythical places, Victorian Britain, and Italy perhaps.    I'm wired both
wrong(ly) and differently.

kindest regards,

Alan
http://area17.blogspot.com


p.s.

Also inheriting depression from my blood mother who I met just a few years
ago (explaining so much) might explain my connection to the hue of blue.

Quote from: Richard Gilbert on August 07, 2014, 05:35:56 AM
Dear Agent Provocateur,

Whoever you are. We kiss the golden apples that fall from your ass.

As a note, on the translation of 青き "aoki" into English. It is quite impossible. "Blue" here might actually be "green" or "natural" or "nature" or "as nature" -- we may continue to tease it. Go back far enough in haiku/Japanese poetic history, and there was no "green" only "blue" for nature. Recall even the recent "aoi yama" (green mountains -- literally, blue mountains) from Santoka. You might ask why we purposefully chose "blue" here.

We remain impersonally yours, for the blue are counted dead. You are not wrong to chose otherwise. As well you are not. Pathetically so. It's good we are not at war. Is an ocean blue? Or the sky? There is actually more in Japanese than meets the eye; no accounting for taste.

"This last haiku is in itself an effective argument for experimentation in art." (M.T.) We concur.

Hi James,

Quote from: BrokenWordsPoet on August 04, 2014, 01:51:30 PM
I am very interested in defining just what a haiku is, not the elements which I see posted to define haiku.

There are certainly many descriptions and definitions outside Japan.  :)


"Today it may be possible to describe haiku but not to define it."


Hiroaki Sato:
Author; Japan Times Columnist; winner of the 1982 PEN Translation Prize; and Editor of various books including "One Hundred Frogs: From Matsuo Basho to Allen Ginsberg"; and Basho's "Narrow road: spring & autumn passages."

Quote
Would you say as I feel that describing haiku by its elements is not defining just what haiku is but, how to write a haiku?

I think we need to mention the contents of a formal poem in order to encapsulate its outer appearance.  A sonnet used to be 14 lines for example, that was its defining description, but of course sonnets are no longer just 14 lines.  ;)

I think we also need to be cautious not to demand a definition of haiku because that can shut out the very people who keep haiku alive, whether established writers experimenting with new approaches, of which Basho is famous for doing, or for those completely new people who bring freshness to what can become quite quickly a tired formulaic 'template'.

Quote
ha i ku = seems like something a dove would say. One would have to listen very close to hear a three syllable count, because the word is spoken so fast in the English language.

It's a Japanese word rendered in romaji (Romanised Japanese, something the Japanese created for non-Japanese people to grasp).

The Japanese language systems (plural) contain a syllabary but that is not the same as a language system containing syllables.

Here's a link where I touch on the many language systems that the Japanese utilise for their written language:  http://area17.blogspot.co.uk/2013/08/extended-judges-report-for-2013-world.html

Although non-Japanese writers and Japanese women may often read a haiku in six seconds, Japanese men often read them in three seconds.  To the non-Japanese ear 'haiku' might sound like 'hike'.

Quote
What is very interest to me can you describe haiku without the elements?

Personally no, other than to simply say: "haiku"  :)   Just as many of us will know that 'novel' in the context of literature is a way of containing a story in words placed in type.

Quote
Haiku to me has been a calendar of numbered entries. 

An interesting definition.

Quote
Haiku is a journey of one's writing from beginning to end.

Interesting. I like that.

Quote
When I asked about the ku in haiku you said..

If it's an English-language forum about haiku I would say someone is using shorthand for 'haiku'    ;)

Then you said down below that.

When members of a non-Japanese-language forum about haiku use the word 'ku' I would say they are referring to a single haiku poem.

Is this a misconception, did you mean to say, a single entry into one's haiku.  That is if one defines haiku as a body of works.

In my first statement, yes, 'ku' is often said rather than type out all five letters.
Second statement, yes, a single haiku poem.

I don't see any misconception personally.  Each statement refers to the term 'ku' being read as verse, and usually to do with a haiku poem.   Of course 'ku' means verse, so it easily refer to renku or renga, but people usually mean haiku though.

I personally don't understand what you've said: "a single entry into one's haiku" Could you elucidate on that?

re:

QuoteThat is if one defines haiku as a body of works.

Well, haiku is the singular spelling and also the plural spelling, so it can refer to just one haiku poem or thousands.

QuoteWe see all the time in other styles of poetry, where stanzas are numbered, some with roman numerals, the numbering of one's haiku is no more than marking stanzas.

Yes, like:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Cantos
http://www.poets.org/poetsorg/poem/canto-i

Quote
Haiku is a haiku poet's journey, not just a single entry unless there was only time to write one entry.

Haiku (plural) could indeed be seen as a journey both for author and reader.  I guess calling a single haiku an entry is an intriguing way to call them.

Quote
I wrote this sentence in a discussion and I asked the beginners haiku class to offer the meaning of the sentence in detail.

Jewels is one playful kitten and now has become a part of my haiku twice...


The answer was not fourth coming, some turned it into a haiku others focused on every word in front of the word AND totally over read the last part of the sentence as if it did not exist.


The sentence describes, that Jewels is one playful kitten and has become a part of my body of works twice.

I've often written about cats in haiku, indeed 'cats in love' is a kigo.  :) 

Quote
Now describing haiku without describing any elements of haiku, can one define it, as a body of works and is a single ku just an entry?

It could be said that all haiku, from everyone who has ever written haiku, in any number, pertains to a single poem constantly being updated, around the world, and every day there are more single haiku poems  being added to the vast canon of haiku.  Yes.

Quote
How does one define elements in haiku then stop short of defining just what the word haiku means? 

I guess in the same way no one agonises over what the word 'poem' or 'novel' means, we just get on with the writing, otherwise we wouldn't be writers.

The word 'haiku' is an old word that Masaoka Shiki (October 14, 1867 – September 19, 1902) re-introduced to revitalise what had become a tired game of renga (or renku). 

Shiki decided to officially announce that the starting verse of renga/renku called hokku become a standalone poem not just a first verse. 

To do this Shiki officially called it 'haiku'.  Before Shiki, from Basho onwards, hokku were often composed and not used in the communal multi-author poem called renga, and renku.  Haiku is also an abbreviated word for haikai-no-renga, which was often shortened to haikai, then to haiku (by Shiki).

Haikai often means, today, the body of literature from haiku; senryu; haibun; and haiga, but not tanka for some reason.  :)

In the late Meiji period, the poet and literary critic Masaoka Shiki (1867-1902) first used the term haiku for the modern, standalone verses of haikai that Bashō had popularized. Until then, haiku had been called hokku, a term which refers to the first verse in a renga sequence. Shiki also rediscovered Yosa Buson, a prominent "Back to Bashō" poet and painter who died in 1784. Shiki considered Buson a painter in words and a visual poet, and Shiki's writings during the 19th century formed the foundation for the appraisal of Buson's work in most of the 20th century. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haikai#Yosa_Buson_and_Masaoka_Shiki

Quote
ha i ku

I just saw how to add quotes and I am not use to the format as of yet.

Yes, it can take a little time to get to know the various techniques of the forum.  No rush.  :)



QUOTE IN FULL:

Quote from: BrokenWordsPoet on August 04, 2014, 01:51:30 PM
I am very interested in defining just what a haiku is, not the elements which I see posted to define haiku. 

Would you say as I feel that describing haiku by its elements is not defining just what haiku is but, how to write a haiku?

ha i ku = seems like something a dove would say. One would have to listen very close to hear a three syllable count, because the word is spoken so fast in the English language.

What is very interest to me can you describe haiku without the elements?

Haiku to me has been a calendar of numbered entries. 

Haiku is a journey of one's writing from beginning to end.

When I asked about the ku in haiku you said..

If it's an English-language forum about haiku I would say someone is using shorthand for 'haiku'    ;)

Then you said down below that.

When members of a non-Japanese-language forum about haiku use the word 'ku' I would say they are referring to a single haiku poem.

Is this a misconception, did you mean to say, a single entry into one's haiku.  That is if one defines haiku as a body of works.

We see all the time in other styles of poetry, where stanzas are numbered, some with roman numerals, the numbering of one's haiku is no more than marking stanzas.

Haiku is a haiku poet's journey, not just a single entry unless there was only time to write one entry.


I wrote this sentence in a discussion and I asked the beginners haiku class to offer the meaning of the sentence in detail.

Jewels is one playful kitten and now has become a part of my haiku twice...


The answer was not fourth coming, some turned it into a haiku others focused on every word in front of the word AND totally over read the last part of the sentence as if it did not exist.


The sentence describes, that Jewels is one playful kitten and has become a part of my body of works twice. 



Now describing haiku without describing any elements of haiku, can one define it, as a body of works and is a single ku just an entry?

How does one define elements in haiku then stop short of defining just what the word haiku means? 

ha i ku

I just saw how to add quotes and I am not use to the format as of yet.

Hi James,

Quote from: BrokenWordsPoet on August 04, 2014, 09:20:03 AM
What is haiku other than 5/7/5 guidelines or 17 syllables or less?  What exactly is a haiku, plural haiku is haiku.  Every word processor underlines haikus as a misspelling and at the same time many seem to ignore the misspelling and post it anyway.

I'm not sure there's any 5/7/5 guidelines.  The Japanese just naturally use units of sounds called 'on' which are like morae,  in 5-on or 7-on, from wet floor signs, other informationals, traffic announcements, advertising, conversation, and also poetry in its many forms, including haiku.

I'd say haiku is a poem despite originating as the first stanza of a larger poem written by different authors.

Quote
If one is to take the word haiku a part into syllables===  hai-ku what would each individual part mean?

To break up haiku into Japanese on (morse) it would be:  ha i ku = 3 of their units

on:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_(Japanese_prosody)
http://www.worldhaiku.net/archive/metrics.pdf
http://www.worldhaiku.net/archive/onji.pdf

ku means verse

ha/hai has various meanings in itself, and when added to 'ku', the most common being 'light' or 'humorous' but not in the Western sense.

Quote
I've often seen this comment when a person comments on a haiku entry- I like this ku.

Now what one would think by such a comment is either ku is short for haiku or ku is one entry into a person's haiku, the person has written in there life time.

If it's an English-language forum about haiku I would say someone is using shorthand for 'haiku'   ;)

Quote
If we pick a Master to read their haiku, we read their entire journey and what we read is their haiku, their life's journey from first ku to the end of their haiku.

For those who write about their life, like Issa, Santoka, and Ozaki, while others embellished their haikai verses (pre-Shiki) with fiction or faction.

Quote
When I write my haiku I number them with first lines marked like this ( ) in brackets.

Another good way to collate your haiku.  :)

Quote
So is ku one entry of a haiku?   

When members of a non-Japanese-language forum about haiku use the word 'ku' I would say they are referring to a single haiku poem.

Look forward to seeing some of your poetry posted here.  :)

warm regards,

Alan


QUOTE in full:

Quote from: BrokenWordsPoet on August 04, 2014, 09:20:03 AM
What is haiku other than 5/7/5 guidelines or 17 syllables or less?  What exactly is a haiku, plural haiku is haiku.  Every word processor underlines haikus as a misspelling and at the same time many seem to ignore the misspelling and post it anyway.

If one is to take the word haiku a part into syllables===  hai-ku what would each individual part mean?

I've often seen this comment when a person comments on a haiku entry- I like this ku.

Now what one would think by such a comment is either ku is short for haiku or ku is one entry into a person's haiku, the person has written in there life time.

If we pick a Master to read their haiku, we read their entire journey and what we read is their haiku, their life's journey from first ku to the end of their haiku.

When I write my haiku I number them with first lines marked like this ( ) in brackets.

Haiku #252 (hurricane)

hurricane
bangs the house
whoooooooooooo

by James W, McRight Jr.


Haiku #251 (spider)


spider crawls up instructor's leg squished haiku

by James W. McRight Jr.


So is ku one entry of a haiku?   

.


There is an amazing amount of serious discussion at these weblinks:

THF
http://www.thehaikufoundation.org/forum_sm/index.php?board=21.0

THF
http://www.thehaikufoundation.org/forum_sm/index.php?board=23.0

Facebook:
https://www.facebook.com/groups/haikuponderings/?fref=ts




.

.


heat lightning
the rain on the grass
reflects each strike

Alan Summers
Award Credit: 1st Prize The Liverpool Virtual Book Fair Twitter Haiku Contest 2014
(part of the city's International Festival of Business)


This is me holding my prizes (including the English Pen award-winning The Book of Gaza) for the organisation's page:
https://twitter.com/wowfest/status/495204957885566976/photo/1










.

The Kindle Edition:
http://www.amazon.com/Shadwell-Hills-Rebecca-Lilly-ebook/dp/B0081UN3TG/ref=la_B001K8AJE8_1_3_title_0_main?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1406060425&sr=1-3

And other books:
http://www.amazon.com/Rebecca-Lilly/e/B001K8AJE8/ref=dp_byline_cont_book_1

Quote from: Billie Wilson on June 05, 2012, 07:29:55 PM
Rebecca Lilly has received news from Birch Brook Press that her first book of haiku Shadwell Hills, published in 2002, has now been released as e-book, available from most major distributors.

Hi Diane,

Tyler Pruett is pretty cool!

Tyler Pruett is a poet with a special interest in English language haiku. He recently won first prize in the Japanese Mainichi Daily News, Haiku in English 'Best of 2005', and has also recently appeared in Acorn, bottle rockets, Roadrunner Haiku Journal, and Frogpond. He is a member of The Haiku Society of America, and a 1998 graduate of Portland State University in Portland, Oregon. He lives in Augusta, Maine, USA with his wife, Ellen, and their four daughters: http://www.simplyhaiku.com/SHv7n2/haiku/Assemblage.html

THF Haiku Registry:  http://www.thehaikufoundation.org/poet-details/?IDclient=582

I couldn't locate Blue Wolves Are Howling Grapefruit Orange, but your link took me there:
http://rosenberrybooks.com/hand-bound-editions/haiku/blue-wolves-are-howling-grapefruit-orange/

Here's my gendai collection:  http://area17.blogspot.co.uk/2012/10/does-fish-god-know-haiku-collection-by.html

Gendai haiku in Japan does cover a wide expanse of writing, including the use of kigo.

Two gendai sites:
http://gendai-haiku.blogspot.de
http://gendaihaiku.com

Here's my article:  http://area17.blogspot.co.uk/2013/07/the-g-force-of-blue-touching-base-with.html

You might also enjoy Bones journal of which I'm a founding editor:
http://bonesjournal.com

Books: http://bonesjournal.com/essays/index.html

Tyler's book is now on my wish list! :-)

warm regards,

Alan

Quote from: Diane of RosenberryBooks on July 22, 2014, 07:12:25 AM
I've been feeling rather opinionated about gendai haiku

Sometimes, in my opinion, these poems can leave the reader behind without a frame of reference to share in the poet's intentions. In some cases, the reader might not be able to gain any other experience than witnessing some word play, though, for the author, there may be much more imbedded in the words.

But because of Tyler Pruett's new collection, Blue Wolves Are Howling Grapefruit Orange, I've gained a new perspective.

Sometimes, I am delighted to discover, gendai haiku can be visionary.

It can pierce "reality" and take us deeper. The narrative format and gradual "decent" or (ascent?) into gendai  that occurs in Blue Wolves Are Howling Grapefruit Orange assists in this.

I've written a few more words on the subject here:
http://rosenberrybooks.com/what-is-gendai-haiku/

..and would welcome the input of those more experienced with (or just opinionated about) the genre.

Thanks!
Diane Katz

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THE POSTS EXTRA TO THE MAIN COMPETITION PAGE:

Entry details that we'd like for the haiku only entries
http://area17.blogspot.co.uk/2014/07/entry-details-that-wed-like-for-haiku.html

Writer's Notes regarding the extra prize winning feature of seasonal notes by authors for The With Words Summer Competition Haiku Section
http://area17.blogspot.co.uk/2014/07/writers-notes.html

With Words Competition rules and legalities:
http://area17.blogspot.co.uk/2014/07/with-words-competition-rules-and.html

Books coming out on the Summer Competitions:
http://area17.blogspot.co.uk/2014/07/the-books-with-words-book-of-summer.html

Over a three year period there will be six haiku books in total covering the seasons, as well as winning haiku appearing in the other genres of poetry/prose books on seasons.  Winning haiku for each season will appear in at least three different anthologies.

warmest regards,

Alan Summers
http://area17.blogspot.com

p.s.

With Words will be having a brand new website same web address, (www.withwords.org.uk), in a couple of months, where the Summer Competition(s) and information about the other seasons, and book projects, will be present.


.

Hi Diane,

I guess Stephen Gill aka Tito is the most famous and regularly writing them:

http://www.poetrymagazines.org.uk/magazine/record.asp?id=18302
http://www.poetrymagazines.org.uk/magazine/record.asp?id=11995
http://www.poetrymagazines.org.uk/magazine/record.asp?id=11092
http://www.poetrymagazines.org.uk/magazine/record.asp?id=10971
http://www.poetrymagazines.org.uk/magazine/record.asp?id=10413


http://www.modernhaiku.org/bookreviews/GillMiyazaki2004.html
https://www.blogger.com/profile/12269272863513196764
http://www.haiku-presence.50webs.com/essays/lucasessay2.html
http://www.poetrysociety.org.nz/linebreakinhaiku

Enjoy looking out for his haiku! :-)

warm regards,

Alan

Quote from: Diane on July 17, 2014, 11:24:36 AM
I have just recently heard of the four-line haiku and quite interested in learning about it.
Anyone???

.


The With Words Summer Haiku Competition is now open for submissions right up to 2015 (February 15th 2015)


   
Weblink:    http://area17.blogspot.co.uk/2014/07/the-with-words-summer-competition-2014_14.html

" . . . Capturing the essence of Summer worldwide."

We invite you to submit haiku poetry on the theme of Summer and anything that says Summer to you.  All approaches to haiku are accepted for submission.

Previously published haiku, and unpublished haiku, are both accepted for this competition.



Haiku Prizes:
   
1st prize                 £75
2nd prize                £50
 
Additional Prize:
The With Words Summer Haiku Prize for Unpublished Work         £25

N.B.
If an unpublished haiku wins 1st Place or 2nd Place an additional £25 is added to the £75 or £50 prize.


There will also be Highly Commended and Commended haiku.



Entry Fees:

£1         2 haiku
£5        12 haiku
£10      50 haiku

USD$2       2 haiku
USD$9      12 haiku
USD$18    50 haiku


For Further Information please check out:
Weblink: http://area17.blogspot.com








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Hi Mary,

I write a lot of ekphrastic poetry.

As haiga is, or should be, a person's own art, I wonder if it's a parallel art form to ekphrasis?

Blithe Spirit regularly ran, each issue, a competition for BHS members to write about one of John Parson's works and I won with this: http://area17.blogspot.co.uk/2012/08/ekphrastic-haiku-alan-summers-wins.html

warm regards,

Alan

Quote from: Mary Stevens on July 10, 2014, 02:59:04 AM
I'm thinking probably not b/c the poem doesn't describe the visual artwork, but rather links to it. What say you all?

Thanks Sergio!

I've added this to the tanka publications I recommend, on the strength of your own tanka, this should be one amazing publication. 

best wishes,

Alan

Quote from: saore on June 18, 2014, 11:04:00 AM
sorry I forgot to put a web link:


http://undertowtankareview.blogspot.com/

Great to know, thanks.

Do you have a weblink for us to look at for now?

I'd like to recommend this to my own students.

warm regards,
Alan

Quote from: saore on June 18, 2014, 10:59:32 AM
It will be online for now maybe later when I learn more about all this I might have it in print through Creatspace.

Thank you Alan.
Sergio

Great news!

What form will the publication appear as?  Print, online?

warm regards,

Alan

Quote from: saore on June 18, 2014, 10:35:38 AM
Submission Guidelines to Undertow Tanka Review


Kindly submit up to 10 previously unpublished  tanka &/or  1 sequence, tanka prose,
"Undertow Tanka Submission" to:

undertowtanka@gmail.com


At the end of your submission, please include your full name and country of residence. All rights revert to authors upon publication. Your tanka must not be under consideration elsewhere or submitted to any contest.

Best wishes,

Sergio Ortiz, Editor