The Haiku Foundation Forums

Hi Nicole,

Quote from: Nicole Andrews on May 18, 2015, 03:13:58 AM
Hi Alan,

The example of Haibun that you give is comfortingly broad and worryingly broad...

Worryingly broad? :)   It's up to the individual to find a subject and approach they want to develop, although it's healthy to be stretched and pushed as a writer too.

Quote
I took part in Ray Rasmussen's haibun forum for a while and my pieces were criticised ( in a good way ) for using a poetic or metaphoric tone.

Without seeing the pieces I can't tell what was the issue.  All I can say is that I've used various approaches to haibun, including prose poetry with haiku, and one piece has been multiple published by respected haiku magazines, also knowing it was previously published.  That piece is appearing in a new world anthology of haibun, along with some other examples, some outside the norm perhaps of other schools of thought.

Quote
There seemed to be a strict editing of form to create a sombre, pared down, reportative type prose.

That does sound like a particular school of thought.  I teach haibun regularly, both at With Words and at an American poetry organisation.   We move outside these approaches, and successfully so.

Quote
Does this happen to be a matter of taste and convention or the model for what constitutes a ' good ' haibun?

I don't subscribe to a school of thought, and encourage an individual's voice, even if it veers away and outside what is prescribed as haibun.  I've had a number of trailblazers across the haikai genres precisely because I advocate the individual's voice over what is defined as such and such.

Quote
Perhaps I am the type of person whose creativity is crippled by other peoples boxes and I just need to write regardless of squeezing into genre?

Welcome to my world!   I love new fresh voices!    Haikai literature has a long history of people keeping it fresh because they didn't follow someone else's rules.  The only rule of writing is good writing.   We don't subscribe to the rule of Fight Club. ;)

Quote
What is Shahai?? another definition to widen the box? I looked some up and they just looked like photo haiga to me...

Confused,
regards
Nicole

Shahai is the correct term because it means photograph + haiku. :)   Haiga is artwork to do with painting, and in modern times iPad paint software techniques etc...

I've just finished the first ever shahai course, and will run another one in the autumn.  The course involved three experts, one on photography, one on haiku, and one from a documentary background.  The work was awesome, and I hope some of this will get seen in online magazines over time. :)

warm regards,

Alan


Quote in full:

Quote from: Nicole Andrews on May 18, 2015, 03:13:58 AM
Hi Alan,

The example of Haibun that you give is comfortingly broad and worryingly broad...I took part in Ray Rasmussen's haibun forum for a while and my pieces were criticised ( in a good way ) for using a poetic or metaphoric tone. There seemed to be a strict editing of form to create a sombre, pared down, reportative type prose. Does this happen to be a matter of taste and convention or the model for what constitutes a ' good ' haibun? Perhaps I am the type of person whose creativity is crippled by other peoples boxes and I just need to write regardless of squeezing into genre?
What is Shahai?? another definition to widen the box? I looked some up and they just looked like photo haiga to me...

Confused,
regards
Nicole

.

The Deep End of the Sky
By Chad Lee Robinson of Pierre, South Dakota

Now available to buy.

The winner of TLP's fourth haiku chapbook competition, The Deep End of the Sky takes us on a journey through the vast expanses of the American prairie, where we see, hear and feel the farm landscape and its connection to the cosmos: www.turtlelightpress.com/products/deep-end-sky/

"The poems are uniquely American in their embrace of the vast landscape they inhabit. This chapbook collection has a wonderful continuity throughout, moving through sections and seasons in a seamless flow."
               Penny Harter, Judge, 2014 TLP Haiku Chapbook Contest

"Chad Lee Robinson uses words the way Frederic Remington used brush and bronze. He beckons the reader not only to the vast landscapes of North America's prairies, but also to the intimate center of human experience."
                                  Billie Wilson, Associate Editor of The Heron's Nest

"A rising star out of the West, Chad Lee Robinson celebrates the Great Plains with a fresh, unique voice."
           Marian Olson, HSA Merit Book Award-winning author of Desert Hours

"Robinson's book, The Deep End of the Sky, lets you breathe and see the prairie as a native. His haiku invite the reader to pause, stay awhile, and consider what it means and feels like to live on the prairie, not merely drive across it on a highway." 
                               Randy Brooks, Professor of English, Millikin University

"Reading The Deep End of the Sky is to experience a symphony."
             Michael McClintock, President of the United Haiku and Tanka Society

"Robinson has adapted the haiku form to an American Heartland and often rural setting. He is an alert and wise observer of such things as farm work, hunting and fishing. This is an outstanding collection of haiku by a young man who has mastered the form."   
             David Allan Evans, Poet Laureate of South Dakota





.

Hi Carl,

Yes, it's not really been long published, and isn't planned to be on an eBook platform:
http://www.turtlelightpress.com/products/nick-virgilio-a-life-in-haiku/

If you want to me email me or message me I can let you know some weblinks to learn a bit more about this famous and highly respected poet.

warm regards,

Alan

Dear Carl,

Quote from: Carl on May 12, 2015, 08:02:53 AM
Does anyone know anywhere I can buy this as an ebook or pdf version. I can only find it as a hard copy. I see it is in the CVH library in THF digital library but is not available to access yet.
Kindest Regards
Carl

Could you give me the webpage link in the THF digital library?  I'll see if I can check it out for you.

warmest regards,

Alan

Hi Betty,

Quote from: Betty Shropshire on May 07, 2015, 02:17:09 PM

Quote from: Alan Summers on May 07, 2015, 10:35:42 AM
Hi Betty,

Quote from: Betty Shropshire on May 07, 2015, 10:10:20 AM
Hi Alan,

I'm not sure.  I created a monoku in the beginner section about 'mantle rock' and did not specify that it was also a certified national historic site on the Trail Of Tears.  I did submit it to a publication along with other monokus...one was accepted (hooray!!) but not that one.  And now I am wondering if a heading or author's note might have leant that one more credence or generated more depth??
Given the international community, maybe these headings are a necessity.  Personally, I like trying to figure out the intent and enjoy having to do research when faced with a 'huh?'

Respectfully,
Betty

I certainly agree that a reader nowadays ought to know more general knowledge, and anything outside that is easily remedied by a few seconds of looking it up on the internet.

You could always make it into a short prose and haiku piece by making the note at the head of the haiku into a title.  Or enclose a footnote that can be published at the discretion of the editor.

Perhaps it could be gathered into an extended prose piece with a haiku, so it becomes a haibun maybe?

Do you have a photograph too, so you can combine the short prose text, and haiku, into a shahai?

warm regards,

Alan

p.s.

Thanks for being the brave one to start the discussion going, and I hope others have questions, and examples too. :)

You're welcome!

No photograph.  But possibly a haibun could arise as my original intent had to do more with the rocks in the earth's mantle and their special quality of producing water, ie.  "sweating out" but it took on a different  life.
Seems that I  am more destined to write haibun as a result of trying to clarify a particular haiku.   
Anyway, I look forward to hearing what others have to say.   My haiku background is terribly limited and I am eager to keep egg off my face!

Best regards,
Betty

Who doesn't have egg on their faces. ;)

Haibun is an excellent next step, and I can't think of a better person to venture into new territory. :)

warm regards,

Alan

Thanks Rebecca,

Quote from: whitedove on May 07, 2015, 12:12:24 PM
Hi, Alan  I was late noticing this post so, don't know if my response will catch your eye but here are a few of mine with unusual opening lines.

eyes of the ancestors
the twinkle
in winter stars

Publication credits: NeverEndingStory, February 2013

time travel...
the ancient music
just wind in the oaks

Publication credits:  World Haiku Review, March 2013

another dawn
I ask dad if he remembers
being Japanese

Publication credits:  Frogpond 37.1 winter issue

I have another with an unusual first line that will be published in Frogpond in their summer 2015 issue.  Good luck with your project.  Rebecca Drouilhet

Ah, yes, I particularly like time travel, and eyes of the ancestors, make great lines! :-)

Look forward to your Frogpond line being posted too. :-)

warm regards,

Alan

Hi Betty,

Quote from: Betty Shropshire on May 07, 2015, 10:10:20 AM
Hi Alan,

I'm not sure.  I created a monoku in the beginner section about 'mantle rock' and did not specify that it was also a certified national historic site on the Trail Of Tears.  I did submit it to a publication along with other monokus...one was accepted (hooray!!) but not that one.  And now I am wondering if a heading or author's note might have leant that one more credence or generated more depth??
Given the international community, maybe these headings are a necessity.  Personally, I like trying to figure out the intent and enjoy having to do research when faced with a 'huh?'

Respectfully,
Betty

I certainly agree that a reader nowadays ought to know more general knowledge, and anything outside that is easily remedied by a few seconds of looking it up on the internet.

You could always make it into a short prose and haiku piece by making the note at the head of the haiku into a title.  Or enclose a footnote that can be published at the discretion of the editor.

Perhaps it could be gathered into an extended prose piece with a haiku, so it becomes a haibun maybe?

Do you have a photograph too, so you can combine the short prose text, and haiku, into a shahai?

warm regards,

Alan

p.s.

Thanks for being the brave one to start the discussion going, and I hope others have questions, and examples too. :)

http://area17.blogspot.co.uk/2015/05/dark-news-story-of-crows-and-how-simple.html

.

I'm opening this up so that registered members of the The Haiku Foundation forum, and unregistered people interested in haiku can read our comments.

It's easy to register if you see the top band of the THF webpage, or you can contact me via my email if you'd just wish me to post your questions or examples.

So, here you can post your questions about whether haiku require headnotes or footnotes even, or if they should be developed into haibun instead.

Here is just a very simple and short description of haibun from me:

QuoteHaibun are prose pieces in numerous styles from journalistic writing, diary entries, prose poetry, long fiction through to flash fiction, that usually include one or more haiku within the body of prose or starting or concluding a body of prose. - Alan Summers

Over time I'll post some examples, but for now, I'd welcome useful posts for both newcomers to haiku, those who feel they are not quite advanced, but mostly for all of us who wish to learn.

For anyone who isn't registered, and unsure, or who would like me to consider posting their comments until they are registered, email me:

alan@withwords.org.uk


RE Registering
The THF Forums are very friendly and inclusive places.  If you wish to consider registering here's a direct link:   

And if you wish to register:
http://www.thehaikufoundation.org/forum_sm/index.php?action=login

warmest regards,

Alan

.

Thanks Anna, and look forward to haiku writers dropping in lines from their work, or from others, that they felt were great opening lines.

warm regards,

Alan

Thanks Marion,

Quote from: Seaview on April 28, 2015, 02:53:35 AM
Well done to all the winners.

marion

Thanks!   Now the other parts of this project happen and the book. :)

warm regards,

Alan

And thank you Vida, and Maya Lyubenova and Vessislava Savova too! :)

warm regards,

Alan

Hi Maya,

Allan's not here, so I'll speak on his behalf. ;)

Quote from: Maya on April 18, 2015, 11:32:42 PM
Hi, Allan!

I enjoyed reading the thread too.

In my opinion experience by itself cannot prevent us from writing a cliched haiku. Most of the moments I experience are just like the moments many other people have experienced. It would be a good idea when I can't find a fresh approach not to write a haiku, a poem, take a photo or what so ever, but sometimes I simply can't resist  ;D

Thanks for enjoying the thread. :)

We default to cliché I guess because we are group animals and feel safer, perhaps, using group phrase usage?

I often take photos with my iPhone as a record, and a visual note, to check up the name of a plant etc... Also, it's valuable source material for shahai. :)

Quote

As you talked about Basho's frog, here is one I wrote years ago:

dusty road...
a green toad flattened
into silence

Credit: WHR, 2008, Shintai

I hope I managed to freshen the cliche. And yes, it was written out of experience.

Nothing wrong with writing other than an actually realised experience, otherwise they'd be no novels in the world. ;)

Before the New Romantics it was accepted practice in Japan and outside to strongly allude.  Even Basho did this by only changing one single 'word' in a classic haikai verse.

I'm reminded of the season when cane toads flood the road, and some drivers enjoyed making sure they could squeesh as many as possible.

Quote

Since English is my third language, when I started writing I realized that we were taught mostly cliches at school. I think it's much more easier to recognize cliches in one's native language and to try to move away from them. I try to read as much as I can and I also use google to see how often people use a particular phrase - I find that very helpful.

Often people where English is their second or third language produce the freshest use of English, perhaps because they don't know as many clichéd phrases perhaps?  The clichés I was taught in French were so bad they were unuseable.

That's the key, to read as much as we can.   I often read a hundred or more haiku a week, sometimes more when I can.

Research is always invaluable for any kind of writer, we are in isolation, and if we want our words to be read more widely, we also have to read and study more widely.   Good advice for those who want to write in absolute isolation where we are more likely to pick up street cliché anyway.

Quote

I sometimes grow very tired of certain haiku "constructions" like this one:

something -
the blah blah blah
of another thing

But we have limited space and limited number of versions so it is not easy to avoid them.

Yes, too many, and I catch myself out doing too many frag/phrase.   We need to think in terms of completing a collection of our poems, and variety is king and queen. :-)

Thanks for the post.  I'm delighted the post has been refreshed.

warmest regards,

Alan

Hi Carl,

Quote from: Carl on April 18, 2015, 07:35:08 AM
Hi Alan

I enjoyed reading this post very much :0)

Thanks for adding to the discussion.

Quote
I hope that what follows is of some use to move the discussion forward.

In my extremely limited haiku experience what I have noticed about my haiku is that cliches slip in when I am imagining a haiku moment as opposed to experiencing a haiku moment and simply recording it. In the latter even cliches seem to sound fine. In the former every word seems a cliche.

Thanks for adding to the discussion.

[/quote]

So, cliché presently feel okay if the haiku is built around a realised experience but not if the haiku is purely fictive?

Quote

In western writing the advice to write what you know translates very well into write what you are experiencing.

I do agree that if we write what we know well, we are bound to include actually-realised experiences and it will, or should, come across as authentic, and there shouldn't be a reliance on cliché in that case.

I wonder if cliché is an either/or a part reason around insecurity, meaning to please, and a mistaken idea that we would be a in group-animal scenario where we are safe and included?

It really is a challenge for us to move away from cliché, although I'm sure there's exceptions when we can incorporate one with tongue-in-cheek. :)

Quote

Perhaps the exhortation to simply write what is happening there and now will overcome these problems.

It's not the only way to write, in general, of course, or with haiku, but to write "what is happening there and now" interests and excites me as it's usually not allowed in the News programs for example which are heavily censored and 'spun'.   I don't like spin, which we also read in history.   It's often why poetry is feared.  Japanese haiku writers were tortured, some died, because they wouldn't write pro-war haiku, when the Emperor was being bullied by corporate entities to enter WWII for instance, and Mrs Bush Jnr's attitude and harm done to poets who were not pro-war.

Quote
For me the reason for writing haiku is to be more aware (in both Japanese and English senses of the word) at every moment and not simply to produce poems for distribution. It deepens my practice and allows me to enjoy the world around me more. If a semi decent verse springs out of it fine, if not, I still have the moment.

That's certainly a strong case for avoiding what's already been said, but to tackle your own moments of experience day to day.   That's what a discerning reader will look for, at least I hope so.

Quote

My haiku experiences are a constant battle between stamping on my ego that simply wants to send out another haiku into the world and my aware-ness  that simply wants to let the moments be.

Hope this all makes sense :0.

Regards

Carl

That's an excellent closing statement.  Of course our ego will show through, but it needn't be shouting, and certainly not shouting me me me I'm over here! :)

It is a poet's duty to send out poems, into the world, and often the world won't be interested, but that we keep reporting from the front line regardless.

We need to restrain using any tired stock phrases, which might feel they gain access to a larger audience, but will that audience keep coming back to that poem, or just like it once but never revisit, never allow its impact to grow on them, grow into them?

We need to distance ourselves from cliché and tired over-recognised stock phrases so that there's just the poem, and an audience to discover that they do have a connection, and it needn't be by rapidly recognised common-a-garden references but fresh paint on the fence that we can't sit on, or our readers.

I'm delighted that you added such a strong contribution to this thread, I really appreciate it.

warmest regards,

Alan

.

The With Words Summer Haiku Competition 2015

It's been an amazing competition, thanks to everyone who supported the competition!


The prize-winning entries:
http://area17.blogspot.co.uk/2015/04/results-prize-winning-entries-for-with.html

The Highly Commended and Commended Entrants:
http://area17.blogspot.co.uk/2015/04/the-highly-commended-and-commended.html

There are other aspects to the competition as well as an anthology about Summer.

Updates will appear on Area 17, and on the With Words website due to have its revamped appearance later on in the Summer.

Heartiest congratulations to the winners, and looking forward to seeing both those haiku, and other haiku, appear in the forthcoming book.

regards,

Alan and Karen, With Words

.