The Haiku Foundation Forums

Thanks Lorraine,

yes, I'm proud I got a couple of previously unpublished haiku into this mixed genre anthology.

Also it's always good, at least in my book, to look at genres outside haiku and haikai, and even outside poetry, to inform our work.

Will enjoy reading this a few times!

Alan

Quote from: Lorraine Pester on May 01, 2016, 02:42:33 PM

Quote from: Lorraine Pester on May 01, 2016, 09:00:58 AM

Quote from: Alan Summers on April 30, 2016, 06:04:04 PM
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The anthology is now available on Kindle!
https://poetryandplace2015.wordpress.com/2016/04/30/official-release-launch-week-2nd-6th-may/

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Just put it on my iMac! Thanks so much for the link.

Been reading this anthology. And I am reminded that in every genre, poetry is wonderfully evolving, not only here in my little niche of haikai. There are experiments I don't even understand yet, and never would have been privy to had I not found this book. I am inspired.

Ah, yes, moved to the Poetry and Place post. :)

Alas, ran out of time to do the audio recordings, way too much on my plate unfortunately.

Various poetry genres/forms.

warm regards,

Alan

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The anthology is now available on Kindle!
https://poetryandplace2015.wordpress.com/2016/04/30/official-release-launch-week-2nd-6th-may/

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Yes, a trio of monostich.  :)

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otata issue 4 is out!

Work by:
Hansha Teki, vincent tripi, Jeanne Martin, Guliz Vural, Alan Summers, Tom Montag, Shloka Shankar, Helen Buckingham, Chad Robinson, Aditya Bahl, David J. Kelly, Kim Dorman, F.J. Seligson

And a memorial piece by F.J. Seligson on Ed Baker

https://otatablog.wordpress.com/2016/04/29/april-2016/comment-page-1/#comment-10



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Congratulations Lamart, I really liked your entry!

The Deep End of the Sky, haiku by Chad Lee Robinson
http://www.redmoonpress.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=226&osCsid=8c927e2639007ee85b4dfe43f65eecdb

Rope Marks:
http://www.snapshotpress.co.uk/ebooks/Rope_Marks.pdf

Summer haiku:
http://area17.blogspot.co.uk/2015/04/results-prize-winning-entries-for-with.html

Muttering Thunder:

About:
http://mutteringthunder.weebly.com/about.html

Both issues, and Earthlings:
http://mutteringthunder.weebly.com/archive.html
http://mutteringthunder.weebly.com/2015-annual.html

Where the River Goes: The Nature Tradition in English-Language Haiku
Edited by Allan Burns
http://www.snapshotpress.co.uk/books/where_the_river_goes.htm

Wing Beats: British Birds in Haiku
John Barlow & Matthew Paul
http://www.snapshotpress.co.uk/books/wing_beats.htm

Nature Writing:
Wildwood: A Journey Through Trees
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Wildwood-Journey-Through-Roger-Deakin/dp/0141010010/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1461833986&sr=8-1&keywords=wildwood+a+journey+through+trees

Hi Jan,

Reposting my Facebook comments:

Alan Summers I've read various reactions to what is poetry of place. I like Earthlings because it captures a place and time in small incidents of nature whether they are endemic to that place or not, it captures the nature of that place regardless.

Jan Folk Benson Here are two examples of what I thought was poetry of place in haiku.

1.
Adobe Walls at dusk
crickets knit the names
of the lost

(2015 TPC, and nominated for Pushcart)

2.
hibiscus unfurl
along the Neches river
bees crescendo

(2015 Blue Hole Anthology)
(Also NeverEndingStory blogspot, Butterfly Dreams -- with this version --
hibiscus unfurl
along the river bend
bees crescendo)

Alan Summers Adobe Walls is a good specific naming of a place and pins it down geographically, and its own nature outside and characteristics be it natural history, or just the atmosphere of the place in general from human interaction, intervention, dwellings and other urban structures, as well as the non-human aspects of nature through fauna and flora.

Alan Summers So for a book or pamphlet for instance the haiku are both individual poems but also stanzas building/painting a picture of a place in time, or over time, but capturing the feel of a geographical location through its many denizens from humans, insects, larger animals, natural 'outcrops' and human artifices. The planet and its climate, regardless of whether it's human made or influenced, or just a normal shift that the planet goes through (after all humans have been on the planet for so little time) is worth recording in many ways.

Poetry of Place:
Vimeo: https://vimeo.com/70555473

Alan Summers WMF is a New York based organisation that works to protect historic places globally, so yes, I'd definitely call it poetry of place: https://www.wmf.org/who-we-are

Quote from: Jan in Texas on April 27, 2016, 09:24:06 PM

Alan:

I appreciate you mentioning this book "Poetry & Place Anthology (2015).
Recently, I've also read your book review of "Earthlings" (Alan Burns) [Natural History Haiku].

I am a bit bumbling with these two topics in haiku.
In the past, I've written several haiku and senryu with a focus on "poetry of place", or so I thought.

With your input on the book review for "Earthlings" I am becoming more interested in how to know what I am reading when approaching each of these styles (categories) of haiku poem.

If I were to read each book, side by side, or one after the other, what would I be looking for when considering each as a category of haiku. This is important to me because I want to know if what I have been writing as "poetry of place" may actually be categorized as Natural History haiku.

Thanks for any pointers you can give.
Jan Benson

http://www.amazon.com/Poetry-Place-Anthology-Ashley-Capes/dp/0994528922

http://haikureality.theartofhaiku.com/bookrew68.htm

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Just to add some web places for Peter Yovu's work:

Do Something Different
by Peter Yovu

Juxtaposition

In his essay The Spice of Life, Tom Tico notices the "prevalence" of haiku which begin with an adjective preceded by a noun, as "clear morning" or " Indian summer". A quick scan of recent magazines will show that he is not overstating the case, and that his call for more "variety" is well justified. Much of what I'm saying is an elaboration of his remarks, and in his honour I want to offer a simple challenge: abstain, for a month or two (or until it begins to hurt and withdrawal symptoms set in) from using the adjective/noun first line construction. Do something different.
http://www.poetrysociety.org.nz/node/400

Sunrise by Peter Yovu
book reviews
http://www.poetrysociety.org.nz/node/553
http://www.modernhaiku.org/bookreviews/Yovu2010.html

Youtube:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=znJ05U0ngps

Artisan of the Imagination: An Interview with Peter Yovu
http://ahundredgourds.com/ahg12/expositions02.html


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Hi Peter,

Quote from: Peter Yovu on April 25, 2016, 11:12:50 AM
Came across this thread-- I do occasionally come here if only for old times' sake-- and wish
to say that it began with a poem of mine badly misquoted. I believe the correct version is:

the cold behind a question
stars with eight legs
dangle

--just to set things straight.

Quote from: Beth Vieira on January 26, 2015, 07:22:27 AM
I was reading a book called The Pursuit of Loneliness: Chinese and Japanese Nature Poetry in Medieval Japan, ca. 1050-1150 and came across an interesting discussion of the waka-related term "soku," which refers to a "distant" or "fragmented" link. I started playing around with the notion that maybe a new kind of haiku could be written that was really soku. In other words, you take the idea of juxtaposition to the extreme limit, just as Richard Gilbert did with "disjunction," and write poems where the link is distant and dissonant rather than close and consonant. Of course the trick would be to have something that held the poem together even so. In linked verse this is not as much an issue, but with a short poem on its own, there would have to be some effort spent making the poem work without becoming a puzzle for the reader.

There are examples of recent haiku that seem to use disjunction, but people have not connected it to soku as far as I know. For instance, Peter Yovu has a poem in Roadrunner that goes

the cold of a question
stars of eight legs
dangle

I'm not sure if it's the best example to start with, but it does serve the purpose of showing that the juxtaposition truly is just that, two separate things placed in relation. The poem doesn't break apart under the pressure of such a distant link; it is made all the more eerie. The poem uses metaphor liberally to help the overall effect, with the words "cold" and "stars" as sort of mini-disjunctions.

I wonder when people decide about juxtapositions, what the general thought process is and if the idea of a distant link ever comes to mind.

Quote from: Peter Yovu on April 25, 2016, 11:12:50 AM
the cold behind a question
stars with eight legs
dangle

Beth Vieira's quote:

Quote from: Beth Vieira on January 26, 2015, 07:22:27 AM
the cold of a question
stars of eight legs
dangle

Fascinating!   As someone who had to interview a couple of thousand miscreants, the first line(s) ring a bell, although I was more softly, softly.

As much as I liked Beth's misquoted version of the cold of a question Peter Yovu's correct version of his haiku the cold behind a question has intriguing undertones.   Most of us have been interviewed, the correct term for any Q&A session, be it criminal, military, job application etc... at some time.

My most terrifying interview, was an NHK TV producer, with the sun in my face.  She was tiny, like my wife, they make the most proficient interviewers.  But what of those who are truly defenceless, be it in a windowless room, or a urine soaked alley or burnt out apartment, or our mind?

Perhaps Peter's was more innocent, perhaps many of us have that luxury of temporary paralysis of freedom.

What do stars of eight legs mean, is it a constellation rather than a spider, or the Sword of Damocles? Who rewrites or rewires our history?

Alan

Lorraine,

Gosh, same here but at university.   This urge to spin a story and not stick to facts even if the genre is non-fiction like history books, newsfeed, safety information, in the interests of the nation etc...

There is a willingness to collaborate with all areas that should tell things accurately but it isn't in the best interests of humanity, be it the humble haiku or straight facts about political elections and such, which Britain is riven through with at the moment.

There is a palpable fear of accuracy, and certainly anyone talking about the 'Truth' is attacked, a lot of precedent for that.

So what is there to fear from the occasional haiku being factual and still remain a poem, or your American Sentences invented by Allen Ginsberg who was a political agitator?

There should be an openness as to how we present our accuracy in poetry, and just help, not hinder that.

I'm moving more and more back into actual experience.   It's vital to me, and how I've seen the world over 25 years, and a body of work wins every time for me.

Whether we don't use juxtaposition at all, or it's so negligible it's barely there, or we use disjunctive practices, link and shift or as Beth Vieira started this correspondence, with

Quote"soku," which refers to a "distant" or "fragmented" link.

shinku (close verse) In renga, a close relationship between two succeeding stanzas. See soku.
soku (distant verse) In renga, a distant relationship between two succeeding stanzas.

or

Soku [Japanese "disparate verse"].
In linked verse, two adjoining stanzas that exhibit a rather distant relationship.
Shinku [Japanese "synchronized verse"].
Two adjoining stanzas (in linked verse) that have a rather close relationship.

Interestingly:
SOKU ZE KU KU SOKU ZE SHIKE JU SO GYO SHIKI YAKU
the emptiness. Emptiness is the form. Sensation, thought, active substance, consciousness
The Prajna Paramita Sutra trans. Snhunryu Suzuki

I don't think governments and various other bodies are comfortable with empty spaces that allow people to think for themselves, after all when democracy was invented Socrates was murdered for believing in it.

Also I don't think we are comfortable with anything that appears asymmetrical and we have to be careful around presenting it.

Alan

Quote from: Lorraine Pester on April 25, 2016, 07:19:38 AM
Alan,

QuoteIn the era of information we are mostly fed disinformation, a series of misdirectional information. Poets are only feared when they speak accurately.  Fictive poetry is fine, but experiential haiku may be the last vestiges of any "it happened" writing as newsfeed plays with our mind maps of what is really happening.

Just wanted to stick my 2 cents in.

First thing that came to mind with the above quote was a quote by Diane Arbus: "I really believe there are things nobody would see if I didn't photograph them." I believe that we, as writers could rewrite her quote: I really believe there are things nobody would see if I didn't write about them. A fellow writer once reminded me that our purpose as writers is to observe and record. I myself have written several short poems in which I am the witness.

The second thing that came to mind occurred in a forum where, for one week a month, you could write anything, as a draft. It was an opportunity to play with forms, to try new stuff without being critted mercilessly. Except...it wasn't. I was trying out American Sentences and someone had suggested it would read better if I made a change. The change would have made the observation untrue, and things on the lake simply didn't happen the way my AS would read. I remember making the comment that the AS was based on many observations, at which point, the poster reminded me that it was not the place of the poet to stick to the facts. Better to have something that never would have happened and have it be a pretty story, than to have it be the truth that no one wanted to deal with. Oh well...

Lorraine

Hi Jan,

If you read that last sentence in conjunction with the previous paragraph it might help.   In the era of information we are mostly fed disinformation, a series of misdirectional information. Poets are only feared when they speak accurately.  Fictive poetry is fine, but experiential haiku may be the last vestiges of any "it happened" writing as newsfeed plays with our mind maps of what is really happening.

We have less idea of what the heck is happening in this age of information than before, and how is that?

The challenge is whether we just get down poetic, or get down dirty.   Do we watch Fox News to know what is going on around the world, shackled to glowing screens, or get out there as a witness, and a writer-witness.   Our choices to stay hypnotised or not.

political election
my application to be
a) human

Haiku News Vol. 2 No. 24: (2013)


the sound dome of bees
how many shades of color
can a human see

Mainichi Best of Haiku 2015


war moon
the flickering of humans
at birdsong

Asahi Shimbun (Japan 2015)

Alan

Hi Larry,

Wonderful to see you post about this!

Quote from: Larry Bole on April 20, 2016, 09:45:22 PM
I agree with those who have pointed out the risks inherent in disjunction, let alone 'extreme' disjunction. But then I'm not a big fan of disjunction in mainstream poetry either. I would add to the list of risks, the risk of artificiality. I know there are people who will find artificiality to be a desirable aesthetic stance, but I'm not one of them.

So if there is a distinction to be made between an English-language 'haiku' and an English-language 'short poem', then I think that artificiality is more lethal to an English-language 'haiku' than it even is to an English-language 'short poem'.

I would also like to offer an opinion about the assertion suggesting that Shiki made what amounts to a distinct break from 'traditional' Japanese haiku. I don't read Japanese, so I only know what I've read that's been translated from Japanese, or has been written by people who can read or who have read Japanese source material regarding the traditions of Japanese haiku. It's my understanding that Shiki modernized haiku in many ways, but that doesn't mean a complete break from tradition by any means. I also think, from what I've read, that 'shasei' is a more complex and nuanced concept than many English-language haikuists give it credit for being. One way of thinking of 'shasei' is comparing it to the French Impressionists use of 'en plein air' painting, which took painting out of the studio. Shiki wanted to take haiku out of the 'studio', where it had become stuck. Some of the better haiku poets in previous times had been very peripatetic; the haiku poets immediately preceding Shiki, not so much, at least as I understand the situation.

All artists strive to be 'new' and 'original', but it's not as easy as being disjunctive would make it seem to be.

There is certainly a skill to disjunction and viewing first hand some great surreal images at Tate Modern on a number of occasions, it is not as easy as it looks.

Couldn't agree more regarding shasei as Shiki had stages in this to get people writing deeper and yet we often get stuck in his beginner stage.  This is partly the fault of Kyoshi alas. 

There will always be a need for experimentation so that haiku does not become flat and merely a description in very safe monotonous writing.  Poetry should excite and make us see the world for more than we are mesmerised into seeing by government and corporate entities. 

Poetry, including haiku, should unmesmerise us, remove our shackles.

Alan

Hi Lorraine

There will be an eBook! :)

"the ebook will be compatible with all major e-readers"
https://poetryandplace2015.wordpress.com/about-the-anthology/

I could do with both a Kindle version and a PDF type one too.

warm regards,

Alan

Quote from: Lorraine Pester on April 16, 2016, 09:48:21 AM
Been looking forward to this release. Wish it was available on Kindle.

Lorraine