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"From the moment [a poet] ventures into FIELD COMPOSITION--puts himself in the open--he can go by no track other than the one the poem under hand declares for itself. Thus he has to behave, and be, instant by instant, aware of some several forces just now beginning to be examined. . ."

--Charles Olsen

in cold hell, in thicket
the gingko group
picks blackberries

- Lorin

...just for fun ...sort of.  :)

Admiring as I am of Olsen and some of his ideas, I much prefer Denise Levertov as an essayist in the general B.M. school.

...and re Olsen and his influence in 'the good old days ', even here in the Antipodes:

"   shot
                 by yr own forces . . . " - Charles Buckmaster, 1950 - 1972


- Lorin

modified: B.M. added, for clarity

Quote from: Jack Galmitz on April 12, 2011, 01:53:34 PM
Just for instance, Chris.  In earlier posts some people were discussing capitalization of words in haiku as if was a practice that belonged to an earlier age, historically bound.  If you look at contemporary poetry, I don't think you would find this to be the case.  It's just something that was adopted many years ago by the haiku groups and became a near rule.
But, as I said earlier, really these same people write what are for the most part pastorals and yet they do not aver that pastoral poetry is outmoded and was a product of a time in the West when societies were essentially agrarian.

Hi Jack,
            It's morning here, so "Good Morning". :) And thank you very much for taking the time to look into it all.

That was me who mentioned that the capitalisation of what someone called 'important words' was a convention in Emily Dickinson's day and not just in poetry. It undeniably was. Not every poet capitalised 'important words' in those days, but in was common in eg hymnals, as well as in the shipping news and  advertisements of various sorts. It was a convention that Emily Dickinson adopted and adapted. But what I said was in context of and in response to the idea that the capitalised 'Words' had special significance in that it connected Eve's haiku to Emily Dickinson's work. I didn't make that connection of special significance, myself. It seems to me to be drawing a long bow. Perhaps if a word beginning with a cap. appeared in the middle of a poem it might remind me of Emily Dickinson's work, but not at the beginning.

To me, all the conventions of style are just that...conventions of style. In using all lower case in his poems, E.E. Cummings adopted a style which was not the norm for his day and many followed. In my 'long' poems, I've adopted various styles of presentation, depending on what I felt suited the particular poem.

As you must be aware, it doesn't bother me one bit that your haiku begin with a capital letter or that someone else's doesn't, but I don't attach special significance to the first word of your haiku because it begins with a capitalised letter, or discount significance to the first word of someone else's haiku because it doesn't. These sort of choices, surely, remain with the author of the poem.

I believe one must work with the whole poem, but differences in printing/ writing/ presentation style are not of the essence. What haiku has inherited from the concrete poem, the graphic aspect, can be interesting, but that doesn't mean that every poem or every haiku benefits from being rendered in a fashion after the concrete form. What began as an idiosyncrasy, the rendering of some common words in abbreviated style in poetry (yr for your, ths for this etc.) became much imitated in the 60s and still can be found in some poets work today. It's sometimes said that it helps convey a sense of informality and immediacy... perhaps, but I'm not so sure. It identifies these poets in a lineage, that's the major thing it does after it's been used for a while, and it's a stylistic convention as much as any other.

- Lorin

well, yes, the capitalization of 'important words' in Dickinson's poems , and those of lesser poets of her time, and the public announcements, shipping announcements etc of her time, but I've never taken that as being anything other than a convention of the historical period.

That's interesting that 'words' has no cap. in the version on Eve's website.

I've just googled. Though I haven't found a website, I've found a pdf of Eve's selected haiku. The poem appears there without a cap. at the beginning of word', too. There is also what appears to be a related one-liner:

sticks and stones. . . in the beginning was the word

- Eve Luckring

Modern Haiku Vol 41.1, 2010

There is a note, too, that the ku we're discussing here was among her haiku in that issue of Modern Haiku

"all of the above (some in slightly different form) from Modern Haiku Vol 41.1, 2010 "

...so perhaps 'word' had a cap. in the version published, but was subsequently changed?

- Lorin

modified: added from "I've just googled" on.

There are two separate sections in the Touchstone Awards, one for Individual Poems and one for Books. The comments and enquiries here, I notice, have been only about the Individual Poems, but do check out the Book Awards, too. Whilst John Martone's work isn't quite along roadrunner lines, I don't think it can be called 'mainstream' as far as EL haiku goes, and he was awarded for two books, one in the 'winners' & one is the 'runners-up'.

The job of any panel of judges is to come to agreement about quality, regardless of style or school. THF is open to all styles and schools. Consider the HaikuNow! contest (which is for individual poems) : there are three categories, 'Traditional', 'Contemporary' and 'Innovative'. The message is that all styles and schools of haiku can be excellent and that THF itself is not set up to promote a particular style or school. Though individuals participating in the forums may and do promote particular styles, schools and viewpoints about English-language haiku, I'd say that there's a clear caveat that "the opinions expressed here are not necessarily those of the management".  

It would be wrong if THF appointed independent judges for the Touchstone Awards and then attempted to influence them in any way, and of course, it doesn't.

- Lorin

modified: I originally left out 'way' in the last sentence.

ok, in terms of 'vigorous' or 'effective' language (I, too, prefer 'effective', especially in relation to Basho's 'sword' comments) we could say that the sounds of the words and the rhythm that asserts itself has as much to do with how the poems come to mean, how we infer meaning, as the sense of the words (the words' denotations & connotations).

In 'nonsense' poetry, the sounds and rhythms, along with syntax, are the major ways that we infer meaning. Who can say that 'The Jabberwocky' is not a vigorous poem or that the language is not vigorous?

"One two! One two! And through and through
The vorpal blade went snicker-snack!"

"'Twas brillig, and the slithy toves
Did gyre and gimble in the wabe;
All mimsy were the borogoves,
And the mome raths outgrabe."

Everything available comes into how a poem comes to mean or how we derive meaning from a poem, including register and dialect. Consider how expectations are upset & undermined if we read "for ol' lang syne" somewhere instead of the traditional "for auld lang syne". It leaps out as an odd cross-cultural mix, doesn't it? (I get the scent of moonshine rather than of a mellow single malt, just for a start.)

'Image' in poetry is not only visual image:  image involves as many of the senses as the writer has worked into it and in whatever combination. One obvious, but interesting thing about Jim Kacian's

the high fizz nerve the low boom blood dead silence

is that there is not one visual image in the whole thing. It means as much in complete darkness, or the very fact that there is not one visual image gives a sense of darkness to the poem, which certainly nudged my interpretation along the lines it went. We rely to an unusual extent on sound and rhythm here, though we need to know the meaning of the words.

(Translating haiku must be a nightmare! )

Peter's



mosquito she too
                       insisting insisting she
                       is is is is is


                                      — Peter Yovu

plays with sound and rhythm in English in a way which (playfully) enacts his claim about the mosquito 'insisting'. ("I zzzz therefore I am" ?)

Michael McClintock, in 'a little inn', has used sound more subtly to help create an ambivalent undertow to the visual image of a quaint and homey little inn.

I hope I don't come across as a mimsy borogove.

- Lorin

modified: unbolded 'Peter's'.

I wondered about the reason for the capitalization of 'Word', Mark.

I've not seen that done before with the plural. The only associations with the singular I have are 'the Word', in the Christian bibles and...um... Microsoft Word.  ::) Come to think of it, there are connections between these two...several! Scary stuff!

Thanks!  ;D

- Lorin

" There is of course great vigor in Kacian's language here. If the poem directs us, ultimately, away from interpretation, where does that leave us? Does it leave us only with the experience of language? I don't think so.

But I am going to stop here, before saying why I don't think so, and hope that someone else will step in.

So, how does this poem mean?" - Peter

I'd like you to say why you don't think so, Peter. I've got quite confused by what you mean by "how does this poem mean".

I know this sounds like the old, circular, "Whaddaya mean, whadduz it mean?", but I'm truly stumped. It seems that there is something esoteric here that I've not been initiated into.

- Lorin

My goodness, I don't think I've read that one of Emily's, Mark. Doesn't sound like the sort of poem one could read aloud to a year 9 class, either! Can you imagine the 'in-depth discussion'?  :o

- Lorin

... could be, Col, there were as many Irish 'immigrants' here as Scots in the early days.

Hi Sandra...they're all thugs, imho, but rugby is played by the real boofheads...give me the male form in cricket, any day.  8)

- Lorin

 ;D ;D ;D :-X

... for what it's worth, Mark,  I've never worn pink since I could speak/ yell and I wouldn't have accepted the hot pink drawer, either. I might be pink on the inside, but who wants to go around insides out? And there are other, ruder names for 'hot pink', most of them referring to anatomy... 'cat's/pig's ring pink' is probably the only one acceptable on a public internet site. The only people I've come across that truly adore hot pink are the more extroverted transvestites and cross-dressers!

But why didn't someone just get a spray can and paint the pink drawer the colour/s of their choice, even if it meant getting a couple of new cans of paint? All artists of one kind or another, after all, and hot pink is surely grounds for modification that'd stand up in court under 'work-related harassment'.  8)

- Lorin

...well, we have all three in Australia, football, soccer and rugby (in that order, descending as to IQ level required to play the games  8) )

At least we share cricket with most of the other English-speaking nations  ;D

- Lorin

 ;D  tee hee...which is real football, rugby, soccer or football?

(but of course I'm Australian and a tad prejudiced in this matter)

- Lorin

Hi Jim,
          No, I must say that, though I like this haiku of Eve's a lot, find it powerful, I didn't (& still don't) associate it with Emily Dickinson's work at all. That 'narrow fellow' poem Alan has quoted is a particular favourite of mine. . . I certainly share Emily Dickinson's feeling upon meeting one of those 'narrow fellows'! and no-one has ever put the 'body shock' feeling of such a meeting so well as she does -- "zero at the bone".

Words

still pink
close to the bone

- Eve Luckring


What I get here is the power of words to hurt, to cut deeply. Knives, a knife is involved. The metaphor, 'objective correlative' or what anyone wants to call the image is that of meat, perhaps a roast chicken; cooked on the outside but when sliced into, still raw and pink close to the bone (literally). And 'close to the bone' is such a common metaphorical expression in English when something touches us so deeply that it really hurts.

There could also be an allusion to femininity in a world that is tough on women and expects them to have no vulnerable feelings in  'pink close to the bone'.

I love it that Eve has renewed this common expression 'close to the bone', bringing back it's original life and power, fulfilling William Carlos Williams dictum to "make it new!". Yes, words can have the effect of cutting 'close to the bone'.

Both poems, though, do have this in common: an awareness of the body sense, sensations. It could be (though I don't want to make any rash claims) that what Emily Dickinson and Eve Luckring's poems here have most in common is the obvious, that they are written by women , and that it's possible that women are more aware of (or just more used to expressing?) bodily sensation than human males, who are said to be more sight-oriented.

- Lorin

Hi Ben,
           I'm very late to this, sorry. I don't have a lot to add, but in considering a first book of one's own, first take into account the haiku (as others have said & gone into detail about) , then consider how you will group/ sequence them (unless you have an editor you trust to do this for you), cull your haiku ruthlessly! even the published ones (the old general writing advice to "kill your darlings"  :)  ) and go over it with a fine-tooth comb re sloppiness (typos, spellos, consistency in punctuation...it all counts) , choose a suitable and attractive cover.

'To Hear the Rain', which you have, is a superb collection by a master haiku poet. Many haiku books of different kinds work. To get an idea, check what has worked for some people.  Rather than relying only on reviews, though these can be informative and I recommend Matthew Paul, who reviews for 'Presence', as a refreshingly unbiased and candid reviewer, I'd advise that you check the various haiku book competitions for results and judges' comments. The recent Touchstones Book Awards is one (scroll down past the 'individual poems' section) :

http://www.thehaikufoundation.org/awards/touchstone-archive/

The annual HSA Mildred Kanterman Memorial Merit Book Awards is another:

http://www.hsa-haiku.org/meritbookawards/merit-book_archive.htm

- Lorin

Hi Mojave,
               There's no need to 'dumb down' your haiku, no need to try to ensure that everyone in the wide world will 'get' it. But the words need to be part of the language and accessibly so.  'Earthshine' is a common term that we could expect most English-speaking adults to be acquainted with (even though we might not hear it spoken everyday) and it's also a word easily found in dictionaries. 

There have, in the past, been instances of a certain cultural insularity in EL haiku where certain  regional references have been deemed unacceptable by some editors because they would be "unfamiliar to our readers", but I think that kind of paternalism is becoming rare now and is on the decrease this century, when the internet has given so many people quick & easy access to all kinds of information.

Most of the people in the English-speaking world understand these days that it depends on which region you happen to be in whether April is mid-Spring among the apple blossoms or mid-Autumn among the yellowing leaves or the welcome dry season among the mango trees. But Easter is Easter and the Easter Bunny brings chocolate eggs on the same Easter Sunday the wide world around.  8)

In EL haiku, every world region is 'regional' and there is no particular region that's 'central'. All's relative.

- Lorin