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Messages - Lorin

#226
Quote from: chibi575 on December 14, 2010, 08:06:55 PM
Quote from: sandra on December 14, 2010, 07:54:59 PM
I've toyed with the word coinage of ASP "American Short Poem" and ESP, "English Short Poem" : chibi

Oh dear, oh dear.

Thanks so much, chibi, for dispensing with all those speakers of English who don't happen to be American or English ....

Where shall I start? How about Canadians? Or Scots, Irish, Welsh? Or Australians, New Zealanders, Samoans, Fijians, Tongans, Cook Islanders? Or South Africans, Kenyans, Nigerians, Batswana, Gambians? Or Jamaicans, Barbadians, Belizians? Or Indians, Pakistanis and Sri Lankans? And the list goes on.

If I may be so forward as to speak on behalf of the people and nationalities you've disenfranchised, I wonder how serious you really are. It seems that you've taken a provocative stance but haven't done much thinking to back it up, if the best you can come up with is "American" or "English" short poems.

Humph, etc. (Sandra)

Sorry, you misunderstood, (mostly my fault); but, I was using American/English as just one example.  Of course, the rule can be applied to any nation (excluding Japan, of course because "haiku" is used in Japan).  I am just exploring, if you have a suggestion for other nations, please I would like to see them.  Yes indeed, the list goes on.  Since I am from the USA, and my native tongue is "English" or should I say "USAian", I was speaking from that perspective. (Chibi)

The term 'haiku' is now a loan word in many languages as well as in English. Dennis, am I right in thinking that in your suggestion for a name change for English-language haiku, as enlarged upon in your reply to Sandra, above, you have only American haiku in mind? Only haiku written by Americans, as Sandra observes? And the rest of the world can keep calling their haiku, haiku?

If so, I find such an insular and isolationist view highly questionable and doubt that it would gain popularity with thinking Americans, let alone English speakers outside of America and those whose languages are other than English.

But now understanding that you are addressing your fellow Americans only, I'll comment no further on this thread.

-Lorin



#227
Quote from: chibi575 on December 15, 2010, 01:35:59 AM
Quote from: Lorin on December 15, 2010, 12:48:01 AM
Quote from: Dave Russo on December 15, 2010, 12:31:44 AM


In the books of translated haiku that I've read by Barnhill, Ueda, and others, the typical approach is to acknowledge the haiku/hokku distinction, then move on. To make a big deal of this distinction now is contrary to standard usage and is therefore more confusing than accepting the status quo . . .



Yup, Dave, I can confirm that this is the typical contemporary approach and wholeheartedly agree with it for the reasons you give. Any other approach now is either misguided or deliberately mischievous.

Lorin,

I take it as a personal slur to accuse me of being "deliberately mischievous".  Please do not make these discussions personal, I haven't.  I concede any comment and response may be misquided, but, to imply something deliberately mischievous is a demeaning judgement.  Please stop.  Thank you.

Sorry, Dennis, my intention was not to offend you or even to imply that you, personally, are being deliberately mischievous. I don't know you and have had no contact with you. I have had contact, though, with other non-Japanese who promote this cause and in my opinion there is mischief involved.

Where does the cause originate and what are the motives behind it, do you know? I don't, and would be pleased if you would spell them out.

re your comment on 'what passes for haiku' that I've just read, I recommend Jim Kacian's sensible musings in his essay, 'The Haiku Heirarchy' (published in 'White Lies'[ Red Moon Anthology)

- Lorin
#228
Quote from: chibi575 on December 15, 2010, 12:27:33 AM
Quote from: Lorin on December 14, 2010, 10:24:49 PM
Quote from: chibi575 on December 14, 2010, 04:42:15 AM



I'm in the process of getting access to the original Shiki in Japanese.  Then it may take me a long time to see with factual certainty that no haiku existed as such prior to Shiki.





o, dear... Dennis.

Granted, haiku is the term often given retrospectively to Basho's and others' hokku in the wake of Shiki, though there is some evidence that the word 'haiku' was in use in Japan before Shiki, but not to designate what has been termed 'haiku' post-Shiki. . . the single verse which has its origins and counterpart in the hokku of haikai-no-renga, when published separately from the renga.

In a scholarly work, then, perhaps, it would be more technically correct to refer to 'hokku' when writing about pre-Shiki works published in anthologies outside of the context of a complete renga, but the fact that Shiki was successful in changing the name does not change the lineage.

Shiki's name change does seem to cause confusion for some Westerners, though. Maybe this in itself is one reason why more name changing isn't advisable?

Hi Lorin,

Could you give some direct references on your assertions about Shiki?  I would enjoy reading the same, to see, if something might have been lost in translation.  I have frankly read/translated little so far.  So, by providing such references perhaps I will agree with you.

I think if Bashou would be able to read Shiki's writings on formulating "haiku", he may be completely opposed, but, then Bashou was in a change phase toward the end of his life, if I understand the history.

At any rate, it is quite a challenge untangling fact from the history's written word (and more than doubly so if translation is involved); and, I can tell from your comments that you are completely against a re-naming, but, that's fine.

Hi Dennis, I don't have time at present to find all the things I've read, in print and on the net, but they mightn't suit you anyway because everything I've read is in translation. I don't have Japanese. But why put the onus on me to find sources for you, when your interest in this issue would seem to indicate that you'd be aware of them anyway?

In case that's wrong, here is the most general source of all that's available to all, and you could begin to follow up with the references cited at the bottom, should you choose to:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haiku

"
Masaoka Shiki (1867–1902) was a reformer and modernizer. A prolific writer, even though chronically ill during a significant part of his life, Shiki disliked the 'stereotype' haikai writers of the 19th century who were known by the deprecatory term tsukinami, meaning 'monthly', after the monthly or twice-monthly haikai gatherings of the end of the 18th century (in regard to this period of haikai, it came to mean 'trite' and 'hackneyed'). Shiki also criticized Bashō.[citation needed] Like the Japanese intellectual world in general at that time, Shiki was strongly influenced by Western culture. He favored the painterly style of Buson and particularly the European concept of plein-air painting, which he adapted to create a style of haiku as a kind of nature sketch in words, an approach called shasei, literally 'sketching from life'. He popularized his views by verse columns and essays in newspapers.

Hokku up to the time of Shiki, even when appearing independently, were written in the context of renku.[21] Shiki formally separated his new style of verse from the context of collaborative poetry. Being agnostic,[27] he also separated it from the influence of Buddhism. Further, he discarded the term "hokku" and proposed the term haiku as an abbreviation of the phrase "haikai no ku" meaning a verse of haikai,[28] although the term predates Shiki by some two centuries, when it was used to mean any verse of haikai.[29] Since then, "haiku" has been the term usually applied in both Japanese and English to all independent haiku, irrespective of their date of composition. Shiki's revisionism dealt a severe blow to renku and surviving haikai schools. The term "hokku" is now used chiefly in its original sense of the opening verse of a renku, and rarely to distinguish haiku written before Shiki's time.[30]."

(italics mine)

re your point that I am 'against name-changing', yes, I suppose I am, mainly because I don't see any point in it in the case of haiku.

You said earlier that the name Bombay has been changed back to Mumbai, yes, true, but the name Bombay wasn't Indian in the first place. Now we are all happy to use 'Mumbai'.  I'm not holding my breath till New York, Washington or Melbourne return to their original names in the languages of the people who originally occupied those territories, though. In the case of Uluru, when there was a return to the original name in the 80s here, the tourism industry succeeded in having the English name kept as a co-name because certain countries, on which a fair percentage of Australian tourism relies, didn't like the original name 'Uluru'.

I live in a country where, since the 1950s, it has been considered very rude and ignorant to call immigrants or tourists from other countries and ethnic groups 'foreigners'. Yet I am aware that, all these decades later, it is not considered rude in Japan to call non-Japanese people 'gaijin'. If a case could be made that the adoption of haiku into English and other languages was a cultural appropriation made without the assent of the Japanese, I might think differently about renaming, but I doubt that such a case can be made in the case of poetry. I do question the motives of those who want the term haiku reserved for Japanese haiku, especially those of non-Japanese origin.

- Lorin
#229
Quote from: Dave Russo on December 15, 2010, 12:31:44 AM


In the books of translated haiku that I've read by Barnhill, Ueda, and others, the typical approach is to acknowledge the haiku/hokku distinction, then move on. To make a big deal of this distinction now is contrary to standard usage and is therefore more confusing than accepting the status quo . . .



Yup, Dave, I can confirm that this is the typical contemporary approach and wholeheartedly agree with it for the reasons you give. Any other approach now is either misguided or deliberately mischievous.
#230
Quote from: G.R. LeBlanc on December 14, 2010, 09:57:22 PM
Hi Lorin,

I know that Shiki is the one that coined the term haiku, but I'm not sure exactly what you're saying? Can you elaborate? I can sometimes be a little slow on the uptake.  ;)

Hi Gisele,
               I wouldn't have thought what I said was too difficult. Your questions, if not taken merely as rhetorical, can be answered by the obvious historical precedent, we could look at them thus:

"...what would anyone possibly have to gain by coining another term?"


What did Shiki have to gain, or what did he consider 'haiku' would gain, by coining the term 'haiku'?

"How does one decide at what point something has evolved or changed enough to call it something different?"

How did Shiki decide and at what point in the Japanese history of the genre or form that something had changed (actually, he thought it had degraded into triviality) enough to call it something different?

"And who would have the authority to do this?"


What authority did Shiki have to change the name?

(I guess there was enough agreement that the genre needed reviving and modernising, that his arguments were strong enough and that he had enough support to have his term, 'haiku' generally accepted)

It would seem to me that Shiki's motives were quite different from the motives of those who would now, after more than a century of promoting haiku in other languages, wish to take back 'haiku' as a term reserved for Japanese haiku only. Shiki's motives were to revive and modernise a flagging genre.
What are the motives of those, Japanese and non-Japanese, who now would like haiku in English and other languages to be known by a different name?

As it is, from what I've been told, the Japanese distinguish Japanese haiku (of any flavour) from non-Japanese haiku in the same way that they distinguish loan words from other languages from words of Japanese origin - by writing them in katakana.

Let's not forget that 'haiku' is modern term, coined by Shiki sometime around the end of the C19 or the beginning of the C20, and also that he was eager to embrace Western culture. Heavens, he even wrote haiku on baseball!
 
- Lorin
#231
Quote from: chibi575 on December 14, 2010, 04:42:15 AM



I'm in the process of getting access to the original Shiki in Japanese.  Then it may take me a long time to see with factual certainty that no haiku existed as such prior to Shiki.





o, dear... Dennis.

Granted, haiku is the term often given retrospectively to Basho's and others' hokku in the wake of Shiki, though there is some evidence that the word 'haiku' was in use in Japan before Shiki, but not to designate what has been termed 'haiku' post-Shiki. . . the single verse which has its origins and counterpart in the hokku of haikai-no-renga, when published separately from the renga.

In a scholarly work, then, perhaps, it would be more technically correct to refer to 'hokku' when writing about pre-Shiki works published in anthologies outside of the context of a complete renga, but the fact that Shiki was successful in changing the name does not change the lineage.

Shiki's name change does seem to cause confusion for some Westerners, though. Maybe this in itself is one reason why more name changing isn't advisable?
#232
Quote

"How is it possible to ignore that much of Shiki's impetus to define the 'haiku' was derived from his espousal of European literary values?"  John Carley

Can you give your source?  I would love to read it. - Dennis



I don't think there is one source, Dennis, but translations of Shiki's own writings on haiku would be the place to begin. Along with Japanese visual artists of the time, Shiki embraced the values of the 'realist' movement in European or Western art and literature of Shiki's time. This is pretty clear in his early 'sketch from life' philosophy, I believe, and you would find it hard to refute it, should you care to do a bit of research reading.
#233
Quote from: G.R. LeBlanc on December 13, 2010, 09:12:50 PM
. . .I like to think of haiku as art, and art evolves and changes over time. Yet the essence of haiku remains.

Besides, what would anyone possibly have to gain by coining another term? How does one decide at what point something has evolved or changed enough to call it something different? And who would have the authority to do this?

. . .

:-\

Gisele, I agree with you as to your overall view, but in regard to the three questions above (which is all I'm responding to here) we might find some sort of answer historically (in Japan) in Shiki, might we not?
#234
Yes, Bea, it's as Cat says, precisely.

I would check, though, to make sure that this mentoring forum is a closed forum available only to members before submitting any work you show here for publication, because if it's open to anyone, the 'general public', then work done here will be considered published.

I think I read somewhere that this is a closed forum, but it's not in the introduction, where I just checked.
#235
Quote from: chibi575 on December 11, 2010, 12:52:57 AM


Boomerang... interesting hyperbole, as is the horse and barn door.  It is never too late for the facts.  If it ain't Japanese, it ain't haiku, it is however factually something else. 

 

No hyperbole, Don. A boomerang, as well as the word being a loan word in English like haiku is, is as much, in its origins, a cultural artifact with associated rules of construction, form, specific materials, manner of identifying, use,taboos, mythology etc. as is haiku to the Japanese.

There are those who say, "If it ain't Australian, it ain't a boomerang", too. I've been one of them. Whether I like it or not, I have to accept that the world's conception of what a boomerang is has changed, expanded, to include plastic toys and industrial steel things designed by computers for throwing competitions, most of which don't look like or function as 'real' boomerangs as I know them even on the practical side of things. All are boomerangs now, but this doesn't mean that we don't note differences or discriminate between them.

I'm not saying there aren't very real differences between Japanese haiku, both traditional and 'gendai' and English-language haiku and neither am I saying that these differences are 'wrong' or 'right'. I agree with you that we should acknowledge the differences and own EL haiku, in its variations, and appreciate it as it develops as a genre in interplay with Japanese haiku and that of other languages besides English. We can distinguish between various kinds of haiku, but what would be the purpose of giving EL haiku or haiku in any other language than Japanese a new name?

Also, what group or individual has the right or the power to impose such a name or the cessation of use of the standing name? The original owners? Just look at history...

I'd rather spend the time appreciating the differences and developments in haiku, worldwide.



#236
Hi Laura,
             re 'authorial intrusion', or 'the writer's thumb on the scales' or 'telling the reader what to feel, think etc', your

the hushed breaths
of my infant
spring breeze

...isn't any of these, but

the hushed breaths
of my infant-
thank God she's asleep!

or

the hushed breaths
of my infant-
what a peaceful scene

or

the hushed breaths
of my infant-
isn't she pretty?

...or the like, would be.

:)

- Lorin





#237
Quote from: Mark Harris on December 10, 2010, 06:29:26 PM
The word haiku is in wide use, and means something semantically similar to many people. Does the word haiku mean to English-language readers what it meant to Shiki? Not quite. Does the word haiku mean to our Japanese contemporaries what it meant to Shiki? Closer, but not quite. And how about the hokku of Buson that Shiki held up as examples: did they mean to him what they meant to Buson?

Best wishes...

Yep, Mark, and haiku has been a loan word in English for quite a while. It's not going to return to being the exclusive property of the Japanese any more than boomerang or its Japanese-d version, 'ブーメラン (Būmeran) is going to return to being the exclusive property of the native Australian language group that it once belonged to. What if I insisted that, since eg. American and Japanese boomerangs are not boomerangs as I know them, then such boomerangs should be written and spoken within scare quotes, ( 'boomerang', 'ブーメラン ', 'būmeran') or be given a name to distinguish them from 'real' boomerangs?

It'd be, 'Well, too late, mate.'

Haiku will develop as it will, whether in Japan or anywhere else. I imagine there will be as many variations as there are on the boomerang. Some Japanese people may wince at some of the things that are called haiku, as they develop in Japan or elsewhere, in other languages and some English-speaking people will sympathise. But 'such is life'.

The horse has bolted, no use shutting the gate now.

Or, some, but not all, boomerangs come back but you often need to shift your ground to catch them.

#238
... or that the Malaysian pantun (spelled 'pantoum' in French and hence in English) should have a new name created for it?

That the English language honours the origins of various kinds of poetry adopted and adapted from other languages by keeping the lineage fairly transparent in the names is a good thing, imo.

I suppose a new name could be found if enough people wanted to obscure the origins of English-language haiku. 'English Short Poetry' would never do, though. It could never be a name that's confined to haiku or haiku-like poems in English, since there are many kinds of poems that qualify as 'English Short Poems/ Poetry' (that is, short poems originating in England). On the one hand 'English Short Poetry' is too specific as to country of origin and on the other it is too general a category, a general category that has been in existence for a long while and isn't going to cease to be a general category.

All of William Blake's 'Songs of Innocence and Experience' qualify as English Short Poems, for example, as does the Shakespearean or Elizabethan sonnet. Emily Dickenson's poems would qualify as 'American Short Poems' or 'Short Poems in English'.

'Short Poems in English' would be almost as useless a name for haiku-in-English as 'English Short Poems', though at least it includes all short poems in the language, whatever the nationality of the author.

#239
Poetry -
but what is poetry.
Many shaky answers
have been given to this question.
But I don't know and don't know and hold on to it
like to a sustaining railing.


from 'Some like Poetry' - Wislawa Szymborska
- translated by Regina Grol
#240
Quote from: jublke on December 09, 2010, 05:49:46 AM
I have actually been wondering the opposite question.  Why do some haiku journals refuse to look at 5-7-5 poems and specifically state that you shouldn't send them any?   ???  I can understand a lack of adherence to a syllable count or even a fixation on the 5-7-5 syllable count, but it seems odd to exclude 5-7-5 without even reading it.  Thoughts?

I must say I don't understand that approach, either. I don't aim to write in 5-7-5 syllables, but if that's the way a particular haiku turns out best, that will be my final version. I've had  haiku with a 5-7-5 syllable count accepted for a few journals, including The Heron's Nest and, as haiku editor for Notes From the Gean, I'm as happy to receive haiku in this form in submissions as any other. 
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