The Haiku Foundation Forums

Quote from: Alan Summers on February 08, 2011, 12:33:00 PM
Hi Lorin,

Just going to respond to this part of your commentary:

I don't see any evidence of any "group of us", whom you're claiming to be speaking for now, or of any "number of us" who are thinking of either kigo or seasonal references "as a collating tool".

The posts have been clear that John McManus is enthusiastic about a possibility of the British Haiku Society developing a collection of season word/phrases for use with haiku.  It needn't be constantly reported here, as this is an American based foundation to raise awareness of haiku internationally.

But for anyone who hails from England, Wales, Scotland, Ireland etc... I think it's a grand exercise (to paraphrase Wallace and Gromit). ;-)

Alan

Well, Alan, I see that you've changed your wording from kigo to "a collection of season words/ phrases". I have no argument with you now that you've done that.

- Lorin

Quote from: John McManus on February 08, 2011, 02:04:37 AM
Lorin, I can see by your posts you are very passionate on this subject.

I am not going to pretend to have a broad working knowledge on the inner workings of kigo. What I was thinking when I was discussing with Alan the possibilities of a unified british saijiki was if we were going to try to compile a saijiki it would be best to do it through an official body like the BHS and discussed at greater length by my elder and betters so that we may kickstart our own poetic traditons within british haiku instead of getting accused of stealing/borrowing/imitating or corrupting others.

   

John, I've been considering the relationship of kigo, which is Japanese and quite complex, and EL haiku for some time. We need to understand as much as possible about kigo to really read Japanese haiku and we need to know about it in order to write renku, too. Gabi's WKDB is really good for learning about Japanese haiku and kigo, and the associations and 'essential qualities' of kigo.I thoroughly recommend Bill Higginson's Haiku World for anyone beginning EL haiku,too.

I still don't know in any depth how kigo is used. That would take not only learning Japanese to a high degree of literacy but also immersing myself in Japanese history and culture. I rely on whatever information I can find in English.

Yet we also need to apprise ourselves of the facts that kigo is inseparable from Japanese culture, a culture unlike any in the West which had a long period of isolation from the rest of the world, had a system of centralised authority and a social culture which easily endorsed or submitted to the decisions of that authority. Kigo, in its seasonal aspect, was focused on what things of nature happened when in Kyoto, the seat of government (then later, on Tokyo). If the cherry blossomed in the 2nd week of whatever month in Kyoto, then that was standardised for the whole of Japan. It was all standardised, by consensus.

It will never happen in Australia that writers will agree that the jacaranda (not a native, but a common street tree) blooms in the first week of December, say. A writer in Cairns will have it blooming when it blooms in Cairns, a Brisbane writer when it blooms in Brisbane and so on. Even in the UK, I have my doubts that a writer in Aberdeen and a writer in Cornwall will agree as to what week the bluebells bloom. And why should they? Will these two writers agree on what the essential meaning and mood of bluebells is? Which UK poet/ writer of the past will be chosen as the one having the definitive last word on what bluebells symbolise, will henceforth be a code word for?

Listing season words or references for your area/ region is a great communal thing to do with your fellow poets. But season words/seasonal references are not kigo, so be careful to understand the difference & think it through before committing yourself to anyone's "kigo" project.

I believe that English-language haiku, whilst it has its roots in Japanese haiku, is developing continually...and in relation to Japanese haiku, both ancient and modern, as some groups of Japanese haiku writers have been developing in relation to Western poetics since the early 20th century. It's a lively thing, there is great interchange going on. I also believe that the local, the regional, the experienced and observed is a vital part of EL haiku and I try to encourage this, rather than a homogeneous 'nature' which is the same everywhere.

cheers,

Lorin

Quote from: Alan Summers on February 08, 2011, 04:08:26 AM
Hi Lorin,

Not quite sure what all this is about.  We've all moved on from sarcasm and/or irony. It proved a useful vehicle for something useful to come out.

A group of us got to thinking about kigo, or seasonal reference etc... and a number of us are thinking of this as a useful collating tool, regardless of opinion elsewhere.

Alan

Hi Alan,
            I'm not sure what you're not sure of, or even what you think 'this' is. What I've written is in English and clear enough, I would've hoped, since I took the time to address your posts.

I'm pleased to hear that you've 'moved on' from sarcasm or irony, if that's what your previous post in response to me involved, but I don't know who else is involved in your statement that 'we've all moved on'. Gabi, perhaps, in relation to her oft repeated HA. I. KU < grin>)? Has Gabi 'moved on'? If so, has she also suddenly lost her voice? Are you Gabi's spokesman now?

I don't see any evidence of any "group of us", whom you're claiming to be speaking for now, or of any "number of us" who are thinking of either kigo or seasonal references "as a collating tool". 

" A group of us got to thinking about kigo, or seasonal reference etc...and a number of us are thinking of this as a useful collating tool, regardless of opinion elsewhere. " - Alan

Quite a few people I know of, including myself, have been "thinking about kigo" and "seasonal reference" for some time, btw, though I see no need to say 'a group of us' and wonder why you do.

And whilst I can understand a wish to collate either kigo(Japanese) or seasonal references (EL), I can't for the life of me understand how either of these could be a "collating tool"... a tool for collating what?

My whole point is that kigo and seasonal reference are two different things, so it's not "kigo, or seasonal reference etc etc or whatever". You choose to dismiss this out of hand, without addressing the issues, but now run kigo & seasonal reference together as if there were no distinction. I'm not sure why. Perhaps you simply haven't understood a word I've said? Or perhaps you don't want to?

- Lorin

ps... since Dave's title at the beginning of this thread is 'Lost and Found in Translation', I don't see that the discussion about kigo in relation to EL haiku is irrelevant. Part of the problem with kigo, when related to EL haiku, is that it was translated into English simply as 'season word', when in fact 'season word' is inadequate in conveying the full function of kigo in Japanese haiku, even if 'season word' is a literal translation.

As Gabi herself is wont to say, "kigo is not the weather report".

- Lorin

OK, Gabi...'air conditioning' is a kigo.  :D Obviously, air conditioning has not been around for centuries.

Yet air conditioning could not be added to a saijiki, couldn't be a kigo, if that kigo culture didn't already exist beforehand, and that kigo culture is centuries old and provides the base on which the current monolithic kigo structure is built. 'Air conditioning' as a 'late Summer' is an addition, from relatively recent times.

Who decided that 'air conditioning' is a kigo? Why is it a kigo for 'late Summer', since office buildings, movie theatres, large hotels and department stores, eg, world-wide use air-conditioning all year round? Possibly because enough poems were published with 'air conditioning' in the context of 'late Summer'?

How many new kigo have been added to the 'big saijiki' in the past 110 years? Perhaps there isn't a lot left in Japan that's not a kigo these days (I don't know, only speculate)

We do need to know about Japanese kigo, and I truly appreciate your work in translating it. But I see no basis for building an Australian saijiki, let alone an EL saijiki, until we have a large body of work to draw upon.

"What it takes for any word to become a KIGO, in Japan and elsewhere, I guess, is the fact that someone uses it in haiku.

And then someone else to pick it up from there and add it to a saijiki." - Gabi

Well, at least the horse & the cart seem to be the right way around there. How different it would be for me to declare that 'moon jellies' is a late Summer kigo for all of Australia? I claim that it is a late-summer seasonal reference for Victoria and Tasmania, possibly also for SA and NSW, but no more. Gradually, over time, when others write & have 'moon jellyfish' haiku written & published, we will get an idea of whether it has kigo potential or not. (Considering that the oceans are warming and that this favours the proliferation of jellyfish of all kinds, it might end up being a different seasonal indicator in 50 years or so)

- Lorin

Quote from: chibi575 on February 07, 2011, 09:01:51 PM

This may seem mean spirited (my apology), but if you are not concerned about kigo and what is potentially lost and found in translations (of Japanese poetry) for the lack of understanding kigo, then, I am very confused about your comments? If you are truly not concerned, then silence would be a powerful verification of that feeling.

To be honest, I am continuely questioning direction and goal in the "haiku community" throughout the world... it is my curse and my blessing.  I love haiku.


Ciao... Chibi

Hi Dennis, don't get me wrong, it's not that I'm not concerned with kigo. I am quite passionately involved (all too often) and I'm also continually thinking about it. I haven't got to the bottom of it all. I think Gabi's database is a great thing and the most reliable source I have to learn about kigo (Japanese) from , & also to correct notions of particular "kigo" words that have been mistranslated into English, but which people use just because they're on an EL kigo list.

I don't have Japanese. I rely on translations and the information passed onto me from various sources, including Gabi.

What I don't believe in is the creation of 'instant kigo'. I don't believe that kigo can be 'created' for the English language. Season words, yes. Keywords, yes. But not kigo, in any real sense of kigo. Kigo are based on centuries upon centuries of Japanese literature (and founded from seasonal references in Chinese literature before taking on their specific Japanese nature) They are not simply season words, words which evoke a season, but a coded way of referencing old literature and even mood.

Check out the last 'seashell game' thread again. Fay A's 'ants out of a hole' doesn't just indicate Spring, but also a mood, 'The Joy of Spring'. Kigo are a complex code system.

What I am against is the unnatural forcing of kigo without the culture, something I believe should evolve, if it is going to. I don't believe that Joe Blow from Darwin or Mary Smith from Hobart or Me from Melbourne can get together with a few mates from their poetry group and draw up a list of 'Australian kigo'. Who are they speaking for? Better that we observe the seasons etc around them and write poems. One day, those poems  might be the foundation for Australian kigo, who knows? But that , surely, is up to future generations of readers. A list of seasonal keywords from their region would be a better & more workable thing, though less important sounding than a saijiki, that's how I see it.

We already get complaints from the Japanese that Westerners don't use kigo properly, don't understand kigo, and I think that for most of us, that's the case. So until we have our own authentically, why fake it?

- Lorin

" (I'm aware that "moon jellyfish" has been suggested as an Australian "kigo")." - Mark

As far as I know, Mark, I was the first Australian to use 'moon jellies' and 'moon jellyfish' in haiku ( I might be wrong, but I had not seen any 'moon jellies' or 'moon jellyfish ' haiku in English before I did) The 'moon jellies' one was posted on two forums some years ago, but not published for until Ron Moss submitted it last year as part of a haiga :

http://www.dailyhaiga.org/haiga-archives/548/-breathing-by-lorin-ford-australia

Another, written last year, will be published in the next Shamrock Haiku Journal., in March.

But although I know when the bulk of these wash in (after getting worn out breeding, I believe) in Victoria and Tasmania, I know I have never suggested it as an Australian 'kigo'.

I might suggest that it's a mid-to-late Summer seasonal reference for Southern Australia, just as I might suggest that stingers are a Spring-Summer seasonal reference for FNQ. I would never suggest that anything apart from some social event occasions such as Australia Day, Anzac Day and Melbourne Cup Day (yes!  ;D) might even approach having some resemblance to kigo.

Naturally , I 'm wondering who it is who might've suggested that 'moon jellyfish' is an "Australian kigo".

Gabi, in all these years, you have only spoken about the saijiki centralised on Tokyo (and previously, on Kyoto). You have never once mentioned, not even hinted,  until now that Japan has various regional saijiki. If these exist, would you please give details? And if these exist, which of the various regional saijiki do Western translators use?

- Lorin

Quote from: Alan Summers on February 07, 2011, 04:15:16 PM
Hi Lorin,

Quote from: Lorin on February 07, 2011, 04:01:03 PM

Alan, as far as I know, a 'kigo' is only a kigo if it's listed in a a major saijiki, along with the haiku which the kigo appears in. Unless the compilers of saijiki are also the haijin who create the new kigo (& this could very well happen!) then the aspiring creator of new kigo
would need to wait for the official recognition in order for his/her seasonal reference to become a kigo. Once it's in, it is officially a kigo, for all of Japan.

Some groups in English-speaking countries, or regions of the larger countries, have made their own 'kigo' lists, usually based on translations & mistranslations of Japanese kigo with a few local seasonal words or phrases thrown in, or words and phrases adapted from eg. the native peoples of such countries, such as 'hunger moon'.

Some have not. I quote from John Bird's sensible essay, 'Coming Clean on Kigo':

" And who may elevate a word to the status of 'Australian kigo'? An Hungarian tourist? The local cloudcatchers haiku group? Does AHS have the interest, expertise and clout to arbitrate?"

http://users.mullum.com.au/jbird/dreaming/ozku-about-kigo.html

- Lorin

I am confused.  You mention only Queensland Strine yet you are from Victoria?  Okay, next, I'm beginning to wonder if chibi and Mark Harris are right, going by what you say.

We don't do haiku, cannot mention kigo, pretty much any other Japanese word, term, phrase, relating to haiku and haikai literature.

What we do is funny little very short terse prose wannabe poems.  Okay, I can live with that.

So the "kigo police" lol, I thought I and others only had to deal with the Haiku Police (in general), only say a kigo is a kigo if a small number of people allow a real seasonal reference with vertical axis, which we may not be able to say even though it's not a Japanese term, allow to be designated a kigo.  Wow, the parallels in other areas is intriguing. ;-)

Don't even get me going on what can be an Australian kigo. ;-)

Alan

I'm confused now, Alan. Where have I mentioned Queensland 'Strine', or Queensland anything in this post? (or are you referring to my other post re kireji in response to Don, which was in jest though to make a real point, and I believe I gave quite a few examples from Australia as well as the distinctive Queensland 'eh'.) But in any case if I did want to mention Queensland 'Strine' or anything else, what's the fact that I live in Victoria got to do with it? I'm Australian, I've lived in FNQ, my haiku book was published by a Queensland Press (PostPressed- John Knight) Goodness, you live in England, yet mention Queensland quite a lot yourself.

I suggest you take your annoyance & frustration out on the real 'kigo police', not on me, but on those who are forever meddling in EL haiku, especially with beginners, telling them that what they write isn't haiku if it hasn't got a kigo and urging them to make up lists of 'kigo' without telling the whole story of what kigo is. Don't rely on what I say. Ask Gabi what it takes for a kigo to be recognised as such in Japan. Ask Gabi about hon'i. Read some of the contemporary Japanese haiku poets, such as Ban'ya Natsuishi:

"Season words indicate season. Take, for example, tsuyu (rainy season) which indicates the long summer rainy season, about the time when plums ripen. The reader associates it with high humidity and discomfort on the main island of Japan from June to July. However, in countries without tsuyu, the word's meaning is empty. Additionally, in areas without much rain, such as Hokkaido in Japan and Europe, the time for tsuyu is the peak of summer: with long daylight hours, and in some areas a summer festival is held.
Seasonal words, therefore, are keywords only expressing locality. That is because the unique climate of a particular area (like Japan, the U.S., or Europe) cannot be set as a standard for the world; it is merely one aspect of the global environment and of the diverse cultures in the world.
The Japanese inclination towards season words, including words indicating small animals and plants, came from animism: respecting spirits in not only human beings and animals, but also other elemental forms like rocks, water, fire, air, and the sun. Respecting and appreciating everything existing in nature have strongly and naturally endured in the Japanese' consciousness of the 20th century.
Of course all living things including animals, plants, and things in nature are not necessarily associated with seasons. Rather, some poets find intrinsic values and universality in them. Therefore, I have asserted and now would like to stress again that the term, "keyword" should be used to refer to both kigo (season words, expressing seasons) and muki (non-season words, expressing anything other than seasons)." (bolding mine)
http://www.worldhaiku.net/criticism/natsuishi1.html

If you want to shoot your mouth off, from your short and narrow experience of haiku in Australia, on what can be kigo for Australia, then go ahead. But I suggest that you at least read John Bird's thoughtful essays on the subject. There are some obvious contenders, of course , 'Australia Day' eg, and 'Anzac day' for both Australia and New Zealand, but I think that John Bird puts it plainly & succinctly enough:

"Perhaps we could get all Australians to standardise kigo on Canberra, our national capital; pigs might fly." - John Bird (of NSW, btw, who has lived & worked in Victoria as well as other places)

The Great Australian Saijiki, Ha. The Great American Saikjiki, ha. Canberra the standard for season in Australia? Washington the standard for season in the USA? Or perhaps Maine, being culturally older? What about those haiku poets from Texas, Georgia or Florida? When it's snowing in Washington, then it's snowing in South Carolina, by decree? D'you really think they'd all agree to that kind of centralisation?

Don't forget that there are no regional saijiki in Japan. One nation, one saijiki.

1.
Little japanese apple tree
saying quietly:
no need to go to Kyoto

Kenneth White - The Bodhi Notebook - in the southern Spring  (KW is a Scot, quite respected in France.)

Perhaps you can do it for England, because it is a smaller area, like Japan. Perhaps you can even get the Scots and the Irish to subscribe to your saijiki. Good luck.

I will continue to call EL haiku, haiku. If some want to be sarcastic and call it 'HA. I. KU <grin>' because it's not Japanese , then that's an annoying form of xenophobia to me, but I don't really care. It's been a loan word in English for some time and it will remain as such, just as English loan words in Japanese will remain as such. To keep those who don't believe that EL haiku is haiku happy, I will continue to refer to Japanese haiku as haiku, a foreign word, to make the distinction.

- Lorin

Quote from: Alan Summers on February 05, 2011, 05:26:12 PM

I think it's time for another article (or even book) on kigo. 

I love discussion on kigo, but we are continuously told we can not only not do it, but we shouldn't even attempt it.

Even young and famous Madoka Mayuzumi is telling us that without kigo, a poem cannot be a haiku.  But then what is a kigo if someone who is Japanese (and in Japan) creates a new seasonal reference, is that also not a kigo?

Alan

Alan, as far as I know, a 'kigo' is only a kigo if it's listed in a a major saijiki, along with the haiku which the kigo appears in. Unless the compilers of saijiki are also the haijin who create the new kigo (& this could very well happen!) then the aspiring creator of new kigo
would need to wait for the official recognition in order for his/her seasonal reference to become a kigo. Once it's in, it is officially a kigo, for all of Japan.

Some groups in English-speaking countries, or regions of the larger countries, have made their own 'kigo' lists, usually based on translations & mistranslations of Japanese kigo with a few local seasonal words or phrases thrown in, or words and phrases adapted from eg. the native peoples of such countries, such as 'hunger moon'.

Some have not. I quote from John Bird's sensible essay, 'Coming Clean on Kigo':

" And who may elevate a word to the status of 'Australian kigo'? An Hungarian tourist? The local cloudcatchers haiku group? Does AHS have the interest, expertise and clout to arbitrate?"

http://users.mullum.com.au/jbird/dreaming/ozku-about-kigo.html



- Lorin

Quote from: Don Baird on February 06, 2011, 11:03:49 PM
@Gabi,

One of the aspects of writing ELH that I've been looking very carefully at these days is whether we should count : ; ... , – !  etc as beats when considering the meter of S/L/S or 5/7/5.

Example,

one string ...
a street man plays
for money

Line one is generally considered 2 syllables;  but, if you count the ellipsis, then you could say it is three.  The "ya" and other markers of such nature, are counted in Japanese haiku.  They are not words (per se) but sounds of accent, ma or space - for timing.  It seems, that the symbols being used to replace or emulate them in other languages, should be considered as syllables as well.  ?

This poem is a classic 2/3/2 beat (depending how you read it etc) that would become a 3/3/2 beat if the ellipsis was considered to be a ELH kireji.

Don

Ha, Don.  ;D Of course a caesura mark, dash, points of ellipses, colon etc. can't count as sounds, like kireji do. They are not spoken, they are not sounds -- simple as that.

If you listen to regional English dialects around the world, you'll find that there are equivalents of kireji in English, though these are not formally recognised or formally designated: 'eh' , whether as question indicator or statement indicator is common to Queensland Australian English (and to some parts of Canada, I'm told). 'Innit' (with the 't' sounds disappearing in a glottal stop) is a common one in some parts of England. 'Like', and 'hum' are a couple with USA origins.

old pond eh
a frog jumps into
the sound of water

(Queensland English)

old pond innit
a frog jumps into
the sound of water

(London Cockney English?)

old pond like
a frog jumps into
the sound of water

(USA-originated, 'Beat' English' ?)

old pond hum
a frog jumps into
the sound of water

(USA-originated - wherever Gene Murtha comes from)

old pond ya-know
a frog.....

(USA & Australia)

old pond see
a frog jumps into....
(Australia and NZ)

old pond right
a frog...

(NZ & Australia)

old pond yunnerstan
a frog ...
( Mafia Movie English)

old pond yeah?
a frog...

(probably international English)

I'm sure there are many more. But we don't usually use these in written English and most of us wouldn't want to.

- Lorin

Quote from: josie hibbing on February 07, 2011, 12:44:26 AM
Hi everyone! I would like to ask this question to the mentors and haiku experts: When you were starting to write haiku, did you have a period in your life as a haiku writer that you get frustrated?

I ask this question because I'm very new to haiku. At first I thought that haiku is so simple. What can be hard about a short, 3 line poem with 17 syllables (at the most)? The more I study about haiku, the more I find it more complicated. I find haiku a lot more difficult than free-verse poetry but still I like it.

I want to thank you, mentors, for all the help you offered to me and to all the amateur writers. You've been of great service to us. Blessings to you all!

Josie

Hi Josie,
            Unlike those who never get frustrated with themselves, haiku, or anything else, I often do, so join the club, you're not alone & there are more of us than it might at first seem  8)

Sometimes, with me, its a tug-of-war between frustration and fascination. Sometimes it's all alive and sometimes it all goes flat. In that way haiku is no different to any other kind of poetry, or even fiction writing, from what I hear from fiction writers. It doesn't matter. If you feel overwhelmed or frustrated, let the whole thing go and do something else for a while.

Yes, read the books recommended, read haiku and find those that appeal to you, listen to what others have to say. But "follow your bliss", as Joseph Campbell used to say. It's your life and I'd venture to say that there are as many 'haiku paths' as there are people writing haiku. Many of these people are, like you and me, amateurs. But then, T.S. Eliot was an amateur poet, too.  :D

- Lorin

Hi Sandra,

The birds that I found on a quick google were parakeets, even though the title was 'Parrot Club of Serbia'. So I imagined small birds, like budgies, who do chirp. I think it's ok to use parrots, the more generic word, as parakeets are parrots and we have the chirp to show that they're not cockatoos or the like. We'd need to know if the Serbian word, 'папагаја' is specifically 'parakeet', though, and doesn't include 'parrot'.

OK, I've just availed myself of English/Serbian web translations:

parrot (n.)
papagaj, папагај, папига

parakeet (n.)
mali papagaj

mali (a.)
small, little, low

So which word is used in the original Serbian? 'papagai' or 'nanaraj'? Probably 'papagai', with or without the 'little'?

Quote from: John Carley on February 07, 2011, 04:41:16 AM

I find Petar's English to be direct (I don't notice I'm reading it) whereas the second poem halts me at the surface of the text itself. And I wonder if this indicates that the source text of the former - Petar's Bulgarian - is more simple than that of the latter - Slavko's Serbian.

In whatever language I tend to find simple and direct haiku to be the more appealing. Or rather, those written in a simple and direct manner.


Best wishes, John

Quote from: chibi575 on February 07, 2011, 11:45:23 AM
My vote:

Here's Petar's haiku in Bulgarian with an English translation by the poet. It first appeared in Ginyu #28 (October 2005).


най-дългата нощ
ван краде очите
на снежен човек

the longest night
a raven steals the eyes
of a snowman

Although, this short poem is older (2005) than the other (2010), and that may have significance to me because I like more the classic style.  . . .

Yes, I think that the dates could be a clue, thanks Dennis. I agree with you both that the Tchouhov ku is the more 'direct' or 'classic' (if we are thinking in terms of EL haiku or EL translations of Japanese ku). Another word might be 'traditional'. The Sedlar ku might have its counterpart in the newer Japanese gendai haiku... maybe, maybe not.

The moment I return
from the beach - my voice becomes
the chirp of two parrots

a version:

back from the beach -
my voice becomes the chirp / chirps
of two parrots/ parakeets


- Lorin

I'll be waiting a bit & mulling these over, too, before registering a vote, Peter.

Whilst there are ravens all over Europe (and in European and British folklore are associated with death ...and eating the eyes of the dead...rather than with the 'Trickster' of American native people's folklore) I couldn't imagine a parrot from Serbia, so I googled and found pages of listings and 'The Parrot Club of Serbia'! So I imagine we have a caged parrot pair in Slavko Sedlar's poem. Like all parrots, they would have the ability to mimic their keeper's voice. So the reversal of the norm in "my voice becomes a chirp" intrigues me.

What has the beach got to do with it? Well, the parrots or their ancestors came from across the sea...Africa, South America, Australia etc. Not Europe. The man is free to come and go; the birds are caged. On his return from the beach, does he, in his mind, change places with the birds for a moment?

- Lorin

Hi again Alan,

yep, I know the background to the paper wasp group via Jacqui Murray and John Knight (who published my haiku book, after all, and I sincerely respect him for it, under the circumstances) It was not only Jack Stamm (who later funded the subsequent paper wasp Jack Stamm awards) but also Professor Sato and Kaneko Tohta (then president of Japan's Modern Haiku Association) who influenced the formation of the paper wasp group and thus the revival of haiku in Australia. I think that you, and Jan also, were invited into the paper wasp group a little later?

- Lorin

  :D yep, 93 degrees Fahrenheit is getting hot, all right. I still recall the Fahrenheit temperatures, since they were in operation here until I was in my 20s.

Tonight it's hot enough for me, (30 degrees Celsius , 86 degrees Fahrenheit, 11:06 pm, and humid, but at least it's raining... in buckets, too) ... I'm still wilting, though  8)

Hey. what we share, world wide (if not at the same time  8) ) is the vagaries of the weather. It's the one planet , after all.

- Lorin