The Haiku Foundation Forums

well, I haven't seen anyone's haiga on this, and rather than looking it up, Gabi, I can tell you where I imagined the firefly when I read the poem.

I saw it clinging to the wolf's tail. Why, I don't know...maybe because the wolf is extinct, but still has some sort of presence in people's minds, like the thylacine, and the firefly is endangered in Japan and would be gone too, if both the government and private enthusiasts didn't breed and release them.

Very sad to know those little island wolves are extinct, and the means by which this was achieved. My dog (I could never bring myself to have another dog) when I was a kid was poisoned with a strychnine bait.

I'll look at the links, see if I can find the hon'i.

Nope, still can't find the hon'i, 'essence' or the like, though I appreciate the additions you made to the firefly page. I understand that it has a lot of associations in Japan, but can't find anything equivalent to 'the joyfulness of Spring' or the like, the 'code' part.


ps... I'm not in facebook, so someone will have to tell me about the haiga.  8)
- Lorin

The moon is something we all share. It's so universal that, from the old Japanese masters to today's EL haiku, it appears perennially, yet its possibilities in haiku seems undiminished.

Here are four from the selections I made for the first four issues of Notes From the Gean', one from each issue:

rising moon
my knife divides
the fish's belly

-Graham Nunn, Australia, NFTG, vol. 1, issue 1


strawberry moon
all night something huge
romps in the attic

Carolyn Hall, USA  - NFTG, vol. 1, issue 2


snow moon eclipse eclipsed by snow

Ann K. Schwader, USA - NFTG, vol. 1, issue 3


milk moon
their faces tilt
in turn

Helen Buckingham, UK  -NFTG, vol. 1, issue 4

- Lorin

As geese arc, the fog
closing behind them ...
the poem's false start
                —Rebecca Lilly

I wondered, briefly, why 'the poem's false start' rather than 'the unfinished poem' or the like. (It's morning here & I haven't finished my first cup of coffee) Then I read Cat's post.  8) Then it occurred to me (thanks, Cat!) that the odd construction of Ls 1 & 2  did not go unnoticed by the author. I'll wager that she is as aware of the 'mish-mash' and that this poem is 'about' the drafting process, the unsatisfactorily rendered image. The irony, self-referential. Here, it's quite interesting because it tempts the reader into completing the 'true' poem, which doesn't exist; the one that isn't written but (one assumes) was in the author's mind... this Plato's ghost, 'ideal form' of the poem or intuitive sense of a poem that the author knows she has failed to render. ( I happen to have a lot of those sort of poems myself, the fog thickens daily, it seems) It's humorous because it catches reader/writers out... hands up anyone who was tempted for a moment to give c & c (like me) to rewrite it as the 'true' poem.  ;D

I doubt that writers will ever give up writing about writing. It began long before anyone wrote haiku in English and it is an authentic part of experience. Once the author's stance of 'omniscient' became questionable, the author looking over his/her own shoulder became part of many Modern texts and the main narrative in some cases. (It only became categorised 'Post-modern' in retrospect, I believe. See James Joyce, T.S. Eliot and other 'Modernist' writers) It can be slight or trite or merely clever, but this one works well for me; it 'enacts' what it's about. I prefer it to the Nick Avis ku.

I guess it becomes stale if everybody says the same thing in the same way, but surely that's the case with any subject.

- Lorin

Quote from: Jim Kacian on February 12, 2011, 01:09:23 PM
Hi All:

Today's Per Diem poem is

A wolf;
one firefly clinging to it
                —Kaneko Tohta

This has been acclaimed as a very powerful poem in the Japanese. Does it retain this power in English? What do you think?

j

Jim,
I'd be interested to know why this poem has been acclaimed as a very powerful poem in the Japanese, who has acclaimed it and what they said in support of their acclamation. I suspect there are several layers, and perhaps it's also technically an admirable poem in Japanese, but of course I can only guess.

Thanks, Gabi, for your response...ok, the main season is indicated in the grammar...that's enough for me.  8) (So late in my life & so much to learn, learning Japanese isn't one of the priorities. ) Might I ask you one more thing? I imagine 'firefly' is one of the older kigo that has a hon'i embedded in it: can you tell us about this hon'i?

- Lorin

The new data you gathered today is intereting Gabi. You state that the main kigo is firefly and the secondary kigo is wolf. Can you tell us the process by which you arrived at this conclusion? I can't work it out.

"on the wolf
one firefly
clung / hang / stuck (verb in past tense)

Main kigo:
. WKD : Firelfy (hotaru) 　

Secondary kigo:
. WKD : Wolf (ookami) 　"

---

WOLF haiku by Tohta sensei,
on his own homepage　

"And then one day came the wolf haiku.
In Chichibu there are still many legends about wolves. In many shrines are stone images of wolves. Wolves are extinct in Japan, but they are still alive (in the memories of people). Especially inside myself, they still live in their original wild form."

- trans: Gabi Greve

http://wkdhaikutopics.blogspot.com/2011/02/kaneko-tohta-wolf-haiku.html

.. I might now attempt to revive my thylacine ku drafts (which didn't go down at all well a few years ago) using Tohta's argument as a precedent. Wish me luck!

Last thylacine died 1936:

http://www.mithmeoi.net/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/thylacine23.jpg

- Lorin



　

.

day moon
the dish rag
wearing thin                   

- Acorn #22, Fall 2009,  red moon anthology, where the wind turns, 2010

- Lorin

Quote from: Adelaide on February 12, 2011, 06:13:09 PM
just a question:
How close was the poet to the wolf to see the firefly?

Adelaide

:D ...ha, Adelaide.

After Gabi's post, I strongly suspect that Jim's "wolf in firefly's clothing" has much to do with it all.

If "a large man running down..." can metamorphose into an extinct wolf in Tohta's ku, then a firefly can metamorphose into Red Riding Hood, or anything or anyone the reader projects into the ku. The poet himself might be the 'wolf' and and a nubile new member to the haiku group might be the 'firefly', in which case Tohta might've got a very good close look at the 'firefly' indeed.

Who knows?


- Lorin

Quote from: Gabi Greve on February 12, 2011, 05:41:46 PM
There are more haiku with the ookami wolf by Tohta sensei.
I remember him once talking about an ookami coming down the mounain, which was his rendering of a large man he saw running down ...


　　　おおかみが蚕飼の村を歩いていた (a wolf walked in a village where they keep silkworms)

　　
Gabi

.

I was about to say that perhaps one should be guided by what Tohta says about Basho's 'old pond' haiku, and that perhaps it's barking up the wrong tree to infer 'hidden meanings':

"By the way, foreigners usually look at the old pond in the poem very philosophically. I don't agree. The old pond is muddy, filled with algae, the water in it hardly ever moving. Not clear, it reflects the sunshine, and there are bugs jumping in it. That is what the "old pond" is like. I insist that with such an old pond, I can hear the splash of a frog. It jumped in somewhere. When I hear this sound, I imagine the old pond. The combination of these two - the old pond and the sound made by the splash - forms the world of the haiku. After this, each reader receives his own image."

http://www.haiku-hia.com/tohta_k_en.html


But if this one of his refers, as Gabi says it does, to  "a large man he saw running down. . ."

おおかみが蚕飼の村を歩いていた (a wolf walked in a village where they keep silkworms)

... then out goes that idea! If a wolf can be '"a large man" that he saw, then a firefly can be either of those Japanese clans who were hacking each other up in medieval times, ala Macbeth or rather Holinshed's Chronicles, or it can be simply a real firefly on a man's sleeve, hand, hair, hat or wherever.

If it works on the level of 'language poetry' in Japanese, then translations become impossible, I'd imagine.

--     
thylacine barking up the wrong genus


- Lorin

...another translation:

ookami-ni hotaru-ga hitotsu tsuite ita

on the wolf
a firefly
attached itself

(Translated by Dhugal J.Lindsay)


http://www.haiku-hia.com/rireki_tohta_en.html

- Lorin

"This has been acclaimed as a very powerful poem in the Japanese. Does it retain this power in English? What do you think?"

I think, "Not really." I can feel my way into this ku a little  by switching species, eg

A thylacine;
one corroboree frog clinging to it

What does a thylacine and a Japanese wolf have in common? Both are extinct.  What does a Japanese firefly and a corroboree frog have in common? They are both endangered species, and the respective nations each have breeding programs going to prevent their extinction.

Then I can try to feel my way a little further by checking the words 'wolf' and 'dragonfly' as kigo,
how the words might function as code words, and yes, 'dragonfly ' is early Summer and 'wolf' is 'all Winter'. But how far does that get me in understanding the ku?

I'd say that Kaneko Tohta's ku relies on the reader's knowledge of both Japanese social history and literary history... and the mythology and symbolism shared by both. I think it's difficult for English-speakers in countries such as Australia, New Zealand and the USA (at least) to comprehend the extent to which the historical past is kept alive in Japan and with it the sense of a national identity shared by all. Even the daily and weekly newspapers keep it alive!

http://search.japantimes.co.jp/cgi-bin/fq20080613a1.html

So the Genji (big firefly - genji-botaru) clan defeated the Heike  (smaller firefly - heike-botaru) clan in the 12th-century. The Japanese wolf ( as extinct as the thylacine, but like the thylacine reports of 'sightings' crop up now and then) :


"In Japan, grain farmers once worshiped wolves at shrines and left food offerings near their dens, beseeching them to protect their crops from wild boars and deer. Talismans and charms adorned with images of wolves were thought to protect against fire, disease, and other calamities and brought fertility to agrarian communities and to couples hoping to have children. The Ainu people believed that they were born from the union of a wolflike creature and a goddess.[10]"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolves_in_folklore,_religion_and_mythology

There is extensive information about the Japanese wolf on Gabi Greve's data base blogs:

http://worldkigo2005.blogspot.com/2006/11/wolf-ookami.html

But who could know, apart from a Japanese person, a scholar of Japanese history, mythology and folklore, or a 'gaijin' living in Japan, what this ku is about without the effort of extensive research? Who knows, from all of the Japanese symbology attached to 'wolf' and 'firefly', what this ku refers to, apart from a general sense that it refers to Japan, past and present? (I will have to reread Barthes' Empire of Signs.)

I think that the poem gathers its power in Japan from a shared culture, one which I can only graze the surface of. But I have suspicion that this poem might be a comment and critique on some aspects of that shared culture, from Kaneko Tohta's '21st century' point of view.

--


clouds gathering thylacine rumours from the mountain

- Lorin

Again, as in 'seashells #2", we have a translated poem and poem written in English by a multi-lingual author for comparison. Somehow, this doesn't strike me as quite fair to the translated poem.


the longest night
    a raven steals the eyes
    of a snowman

'The longest night' (Winter Solstice) might be a humorous or witty take on the blindness of the snowman, before but particularly after the theft. Like Dennis & Maya, I imagine the traditional 'eyes' of coal . Why a raven would steal these is beyond me, but there is a connection of 'black' between the bird & coal. But perhaps the eyes were made of some foodstuff? If they were made of coal, this is 'one dumb bird', and the poem might also be a humorous take on the benightedness of such a raven. Alternatively, we might suspect that it's a very clever raven who knows how to make fire, and ravens are noted for cleverness, the ability to use tools eg.

Anyway, the raven is an eater of the eyes of corpses, according to European and British folk-lore, and the implication here is that it's so cold that a raven steals a snowman's, to eat. I see this as a play on the sort of hyperbole in common sayings like, "I'm so hungry I could eat a horse!"

Tchouhov's poem has the advantage of its relative clarity and technical smoothness in English, but then it was written in English! (see Maya's first post: "Peter writes most of his haiku directly in English and that explains their smooth flow. . .")

Sedlar's is translated, and may not yet have reached its definitive translation/rendition into English. The author has passed away, so we can't consult him.

The moment I return
    from the beach - my voice becomes
    the chirp of two parrots

(trans.- Saša Važić)

returning from the beach -
my voice becomes the chirp
of two parrots

(trans. – Polona)

home [back?] from the beach -
my voice becomes the chirp
of two parrots

(EL version – Lorin)

In previous posts, I've said what appeals to me about this poem... the transformation of the voice leads me to a warm sense of 'family' and fellowship in relation to the caged birds... but more, it leads me ultimately to a sense of  'Thou art that', not told, but experienced through quite an ordinary thing...a man chirping to his parrots/ budgies.

Tchouhov's poem is certainly the more technically accomplished (in English: I have no ability to judge haiku in other languages) and is a delightful poem, but it is Sedlar's poem that draws me into a warm sense of the mystery of relationship with everything.

So, because I think that the contest is weighted in favour of the Tchouhov poem as the more technically accomplished (in English) of the two and therefore is likely to glean more votes, I'll vote for the Sedlar poem.

(ps, I've just seen your post, Polona.

I think that it's not the fact that Petar's was written directly in English that's curious or surprising, but that we are presented with the two poems as if both are translations into English, when it turns out that one is a translation but the other is an EL haiku.

- Lorin

Dennis, I've enjoyed reading your account of your haiku odyssey to date. This particular sentence adds something I can identify with, and has me smiling:

"I manage an awkward bow and attempt the Japanese word for "thank you" but it sounds more like, "alligator".  "

I also like the part about there not being a word for mockingbird in the saijiki. These touches show a little about the narrator (you) and help ground the narrative in the 'two worlds'.

- Lorin

Quote from: polona on February 09, 2011, 01:08:30 PM
Hi Lorin,

I agree that the mention of the beach provides the seasonal reference and sets the poem in the summer and yes, there are a few known river beaches like Ada Ciganlija, an islet in the Danube near Belgrade, a popular venue for the local folks.

I also feel that the poet's voice mimicking the chirping of parrots / parakeets / budgies(?) is essential for the haiku and gives an interesting twist. The birds are caged but greet the returning owner with the cheerful chirping and he shows his affection by responding in the same way...

Hi Polona,

The more I sit with this poem and let it sink in, the more I see what a warm poem it is. ('warm' in the sense of 'warm, affectionate feelings', not temperature!) The man might even be the first to 'chirp', greeting his birds and letting them know he's home, even before he's within their sight. It seems to me this might be the case, and that he's observing himself without judgment but with (perhaps ironical , perhaps not ironical at all) detachment in this poem.

If they're budgies or the like, they're very communal birds even in the wild, and as pet birds would be attached to their owner. Here are some wild ones having a conference:

http://www.listeningearth.com.au/blog_images/2008_10/BudgieQuintet.jpg

- Lorin

Hi Maya... of course you can vote! Anyone who's interested enough can vote, though David asks that we give our reasons, since the discussion is the more important thing.

Hi Polona... thanks for helping with the Serbian poem. For me, "returning from the beach" (or even "back from the beach") would work almost the same as "The moment I return/from the beach" or "just as I return from the beach", given that in a haiku we don't have a lot of room to say everything. It feels to me that it's Ls 2 & 3 that are the focus of the poem.

Interesting to know that a beach can be a river bank (I'd never have thought of that!) The beach, wherever situated, might be important in giving a sense of season? For the majority of people, "beach" is probably associated with Summer.

- Lorin

Thank you, Saša, for coming here and helping us. It's really good to be able to have a translator help when one is unsure. I think that these are African parrots, cage birds, perhaps even the renowned African Grey Parrot species, which have, reportedly, excellent memories as well as being great mimics.

"...but most probably, the parrots are greeting Sedlar with their parroting his voice with their joyful chirp." - Saša

I would've thought that the chirping sounds and the speaking sounds would be distinct in all parrots, but I may be wrong. They would certainly mimic their owners voice. Nevertheless, I feel that the author intended the interesting reversal: instead of parrot voices learning speech and so becoming the man's voice, it's the man's voice here that becomes "the chirp of two parrots".

So,  8) pets and their owners. Perhaps he really does find himself chirping to the two parrots in greeting?
I have seen this, the man imitating the bird, even bobbing his head up & down to the rhythm. I don't know what to make of the beach except that of course it's outdoors and public, whilst a return to parrots would perhaps be inside, or at least in the man's own yard, and so it's private.

Perhaps the author is showing us something about his public persona, the social mask, and the private... essentially from the wild, like the birds... giving us a glimpse inside?

- Lorin