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Messages - Lorin

I've not visited these forums since I last posted, so my apologies to all who've commented on this thread. Thanks, to all.

Michael, thank you very much for your very detailed (& sympathetic) post. Much appreciated! I understand & agree with all you've said.

I was very hurt upset at the time and though I wasn't aware of the of the Irish poet's book title when I first posted, the fact that the Forges-Ryan won a THF Book prize & that the Australian (actually British, but I imagine she has dual citizenship now) reviewer of the Forges-Ryan book for Presence (who is also President of the Haiku Society of Australia) had praised the book for its "excellent title" etc. and, upon enquiry, told me she hadn't been aware of my poem or book ...these things ribbed salt into the wound.

When I posted, I even got the word order of my own haiku wrong! It should be:

on a bare twig rain beads what light there is

Before I posted, though, I looked into the likelihood that Sylvia Forges-Ryan had read my haiku and it seemed to me there was a strong likelihood because of three things:

1. The THF Registry

I joined it fairly early in the piece and have not changed the haiku since. The haiku in question has been there a long time. See the 'client ID' in the url.

Sylvia Forges-Ryan joined the Registry quite some time later:

Her name & photo comes right after mine, because of our F surnames:

I'd find it unusual if anyone, upon checking her own entry when it went online,wouldn't be curious enough to have a look at neighbouring entries, at least.

2. My haiku was first published in Shamrock Haiku Journal #3, Sept 2007

I checked issues of Shamrock and found that Forges-Ryan has haiku in Shamrock Haiku Journal #1, also in 2007:

Would anyone submit to a journal, then not check out at least a few subsequent issues in the same year?

3. The haiku was Snapshot Press Calendar comp. winner in 2011 and also appeared in the Red Moon anthology 2011, 'Carving Darkness', with publication credits given to the Snapshot Press.

4. My 'what light there is' was available on 3Lights Gallery, and when that closed down, Liam sent the file to me & it was continuously available via a link on the editor's page of A Hundred Gourds.

So I still think it likely that Forges-Ryan had at least read my haiku, even if she wasn't interested in reading the e-chapbook, though it's clearly available for anyone reading my THF Registry profile:

"Books Published: a wattle seedpod (Post Pressed, Teneriffe, Qld, Australia, 2008); e-chapbooks: what light there is (3Lights Gallery, 2009) and A Few Quick Brushstrokes, a winner of the Snapshot Press e-chapbook competition, 2011. All three publications are available online, free of charge."

Nevertheless, I noted Forges-Ryan's age, along with the fact that she'd not been active in writing haiku for a decade and considered the possibility of "reading & forgetting". It was that nobody on the THF judges' panel and the President of the AHS seemed to be completely aware of my haiku, let alone my e-chapbook title, and that really hurt. I'd also sent a short email to Jim, but received no reply.

And I had, at the time, recently been sidelined, inexplicably & at the last moment, in relation to an American poet's visit to Melbourne which I was arranging via THF & subsequent email correspondence with said poet, by a member of my own haiku group, who I'd helped a lot and who refused to explain at all & sent the whole group a clerical 'Notice' of concluding all association with the I was feeling pretty hurt anyway.

Such is life. One continues.  :)

a ps to Marion & Rick:  Jane's response to Marion was a gracious one, but it's Marion who deserves credit for contacting her upon discovering the repetition. To be fair, Jane was not always so gracious:

Jane Reichhold

a response can be found here:

- Lorin
Hi Jan,
          It's no comfort to you. but the issue of image plagiarism (re haiga) is a real one. It came up many times, over the years, on Jane Reichhold's AHA Forums. I'm very sorry to hear you've been subject to this.

I'm shocked that a reviewer would make unfair use of an image in a yet to be released issue of a journal! I hope you've at least received an apology from that reviewer.

It is    hurtful and distressing to find one's work claimed by and attributed to someone else.

best wishes,

ps. the header on this thread should now read "The Three Authors of What Light There Is"

Sounds like the title of a Borges story!  ???

- Lorin
Thanks for your kind comments, light pilgrim and Meg.

Yes, using elements of other people's work is common, and there are honorable ways of borrowing.

I felt, in this case, completely unacknowledged. A reviewer remarked upon Forges-Ryan's "excellent title", the THF Touchstone Panel awarded the book an Honorable mention, but no-one, it seems, is/ was aware of my haiku which preceded or my preceding e-chapbook. It is the lack of acknowledgement that sets off feelings of hurt and of having been, quite possibly, plagiarized.

However, using an advanced search after a friend did the same & let me know, there is yet another poetry book (not haiku, though) with the same title which precedes both: What Light There Is by Eamon Grennan, an Irish poet, published in the 1980's. (Gallery Books, Ireland, 1987)

So my title isn't as original as I'd thought! And Meg, I see, has mentioned the same book here. (Thanks, Meg) One day I might try to find a copy and read the poems!

I was about to contact Sylvia Forges- Ryan (having found her email address in her Registry entry) and point out the title & the resemblance of her two poems to my one-liner when I found out about Eamon Grennan's book, but I don't think I have a case now & can just put it all down to experience.

It's all transient, all ephemeral, all "a world of dew" anyway. I'm glad to be reminded of that. :-) And I do appreciate that you both took the time and care to write your comments.

- Lorin

Noting, today, that What Light There Is by Sylvia Forges-Ryan received an Honorable Mention in the 2016 Touchstone Distinguished Books Awards

I can't help but wonder if the Panel, Randy Brooks, Tom Clausen, Rebecca Lilly, Michael McClintock and Julie Warther (all Americans) are aware that I have a book of the same title, what light there is, published in 2009 and cached on the A Hundred Gourds website, or even aware of my original haiku from which my book takes its title.
Granted, mine is an e-chapbook, not a print book. Should that matter? The haiku my title is drawn from is:

rain beads on a bare twig what light there is
first published in Shamrock Haiku Journal #3 (2007); a wattle seedpod (PostPressed,2008) 3Lights Gallery e-chapbook what light there is (2009),Red Moon anthology Carving Darkness (2011), Haiku in English (Norton 2013) and included in my sample haiku on the THF Registry from 2009 or 2010.
If you look up the F surnames in the Registry, you'll find that the link to my page is located between those of Seanan Forbes and Sylvia Forges-Ryan, both of which were later entries. I find it unlikely that anyone checking out their Registry page wouldn't be curious enough to read at least the haiku by the people filed close to their own names.
What if I'd planned to title a future print book what light there is? What if I'd planned to publish it through Red Moon Press?
These two haiku are in Sylvia Forges-Ryan's book (there may be more):

   what light there is
What light there is --
      mornings the sparkle of dew
      evenings the glow of fireflies
I can't help but note that Sylvia has taken both senses of "what light there is" in my haiku:

rain beads on a bare twig what light there is

and spread them over two haiku, allocating one meaning to each. In doing so, she's lost the ambiguity ... the double sense of "what light there is"... that distinguishes my haiku, yet she's used both, and also brought them together in her book title. It's this that gives me the impression that she has read mine and 'worked' it rather than it being accidental or an example of what MDW terms 'cryptomnesia'.
Though it might still be 'cryptomnesia'. Here's Michael Dylan Welch (from one of his many articles on the subject of plagiarism) from 'A Spade's a Spade: Plagiarism and Déjà-ku':
"We should indeed feel free to get our inspiration wherever and whenever we can. But at some point we should assess our work and ask ourselves some questions — where did that come from, and did I just restate someone else's ideas or images in different words?" - MDW
I'm pretty certain that if Sylvia Forges-Ryan had been a relative newcomer to haiku, someone would have picked up that her book title and the two related haiku I've given here are based on my haiku & book title, but when I look at her credits, I see she's been around a very long time:
"Sylvia Forges-Ryan, former editor of Frogpond, has not published a volume since her award-winning Take a Deep Breath a decade ago. Instead, she has been shaping the threads of her writing — haiku, senryu and tanka — into the cohesive whole that is What Light There Is, . . .
Where does one stand if the 'important ' people overlook or decline to recognise plagiarism when they see it, or remain unaware of a truly original and widely published haiku such as this of mine to the extent that someone very experienced ( no 'newbie' excuses are possible) can come along and not only use the guts of it (albeit in two haiku instead of one), but have a book published under the title of what light there is? What can one do?
My own bleak conclusion in this case is that one can do bugger-all apart from reminding people of the original and bringing up the topic, but I welcome suggestions, opinions...anything!

- Lorin

A Hundred Gourds 5.3 released

The 19th issue of A Hundred Gourds, a quarterly journal of haiku, haibun, haiga, tanka and renku poetry, is now available. This June 2016 issue is our final issue. All issues of A Hundred Gourds will remain available for the foreseeable future and we hope readers will continue to find them useful resources. We thank all of our contributors for the wonderful work AHG has been able to publish.

As well as our Haiku, Haibun, Haiga, Tanka and Expositions sections, AHG 5:3 presents two Features:

Feature #1:

'In the Footsteps of Bashō: small group travel in Japan with a focus on Japanese Literature'

Beverley George shares her experiences, as literary adviser to Mitsui Travel, of leading small groups of haiku, haibun and tanka writers on inspiring journeys in Japan. Illustrated with many poems and photographs of people and places, this feature will bring reminiscences to those who've visited Japan and a lively feeling of what being there –  where Bashō, Chiyo-ni, Shiki, Santōka and others lived, wandered and wrote –  is like.

Feature #2:

'A Bit of Ourselves – Haiku by the Gourds Team'

For our final issue, we also leave readers with a little bit of ourselves. Each member of the AHG Team – editors, webmasters, web host and artist – has selected five to seven haiku of our own.  A brushwork haiga by Ron Moss accompanies each person's page.


Jo McInerney provides an essay on H. Gene Murtha's bird haiku, Marion Clarke a commentary on a haibun by Terri L. French and David McMurray gives us something to think about with his commentary on 'The President's Haiku'. Book reviews in this issue are by Michael Dylan Welch, Glenda Cimino, Jo McInerney, Gary Ford, Rodney Williams and Susan Constable.

Happy reading to all, and we wish all of our readers and contributors a pleasurable and fortunate continuation on the haiku-and-related poetry path.

Lorin Ford – Haiku Editor, Managing Editor
for the Editorial Team, A Hundred Gourds

Thanks very much, Sandra.  :)

- Lorin
Journal Announcements / A Hundred Gourds 5.2 released
February 29, 2016, 07:23:33 PM
A Hundred Gourds 5.2 released

The 18th issue of A Hundred Gourds, a quarterly journal of haiku, haibun, haiga, tanka and renku poetry, is now available for your reading pleasure.

Please note:

1. AHG will cease publication with our next issue, AHG 5.3, in June 2016. 
AHG 5.3, our 19th issue, will be published in June. It will be our final issue, so be sure to send all submissions by the deadline of March 15th. Submissions received after the deadline will not be considered.

2. There will be no renku section in AHG 5.3

We thank Kala Ramesh for her willingness to join the AHG Team as Guest Renku editor for AHG 5.2. This is the last issue of AHG to contain a Renku section. William Sorlien, in his notices to some contributors last year, warned that he may not be able to continue because of other pressing responsibilities. That has turned out to be the case. We wish him well in his future endeavours.

Along with our poetry sections, AHG 5.2 includes:

Feature: Haiku North America 2015 — Schenectady, New York

Jennifer Sutherland reports on the bountiful variety of haiku-related presentations given at the 2015 HNA Conference, which was held in Schenectady, New York, USA. Those many of us who couldn't be there will appreciate some wonderful glimpses into the ideas and expertise that are shared at HNA Conferences.


Ray Rasmussen's essay, 'Learning from Two Masters' explores what might be learned from studying the work and teachings of haibun of two haiku masters who were widely separated in both time and place: Basho, from 17th century Japan and Ken Jones from 21st century  Wales, UK.

Brad Bennet and Jo McInerney offer their insights into individual haiku that've caught their attention.
Ellis Avery reviews the Genjuan Haibun Contest Decorated Works anthology, Rodney Williams reviews Owen Bullock's urban haiku and Lorin Ford reviews Rick Tarquinio's Mostly Water.

Submissions Deadline

The deadline for all submissions to AHG 5.3 (the June 2016 issue) is March 15th. Please check our submissions page for details and editors' guidelines.

Please take the time to read the AHG submissions page, including each relevant editor's comments and requirements, and ensure that your submission complies.

Lorin Ford – Haiku Editor, Managing Editor
            for the Editorial Team, A Hundred Gourds

Journal Announcements / A Hundred Gourds 5.1 released
November 30, 2015, 08:18:00 PM
A Hundred Gourds 5.1 released

The 17th issue of A Hundred Gourds, a quarterly journal of haiku, haibun, haiga, tanka and renku poetry, is now online for your reading pleasure.

Renku News – Guest Editor for AHG 5.2, Kala Ramesh

Due to unforeseen circumstances, William Sorlien is not available to receive renku submissions for AHG 5.2, the March 2016 issue. Kala Ramesh has kindly agreed to be our Guest Renku Editor for the forthcoming March issue. Please read the AHG news page for further details and send your renku submissions to this address: with 'Renku Submission' in the title bar.

Haiga News – New Haiga Editor, Sandi Pray 

With this issue we farewell Aubrie Cox and welcome Sandi Pray as our new Haiga Editor. Please read our news page for further details.

Along with our poetry sections, AHG 5.1 includes:

In Memoriam

It was with great sadness we heard the news of Gene Murtha's passing in October. In this issue, we commemorate Gene's life and haiku with 'Quiet Pond: In Memory of H. Gene Murtha' by Ferris Gilli, long-time associate editor for the online haiku journal, The Heron's Nest.

AHG 5.1 Feature

How successfully can haiku be when performed to musical accompaniment? Charles Trumbull gives us something to think about as well as listen to in his featured essay, 'Haiku and Music: A Morganatic Marriage?'


J. Zimmerman's essay, 'The Variorum Project – Haiku Variations', shows us, in depth, a way to loosen up our practice of writing haiku drafts that can have very interesting and fruitful results. Michael Dylan Welch reviews Kay L. Tracy's Origami Pinwheels, Susan Constable reviews Kathy Kituai's Deep in the Valley of Tea Bowls and Lorin Ford reviews Paresh Tiwari's An inch of Sky.

Submissions Deadline

The deadline for all submissions to AHG 5.2 (the March 2016 issue) is December 15th. AHG has an open submissions policy: any submissions received after the deadline will be filed for consideration for the June 2016 issue. Please check our submissions page for details and editors' guidelines.

Please take the time to read the AHG submissions page, including each relevant editor's comments and requirements, and ensure that your submission complies.

— Lorin Ford – Haiku Editor, Managing Editor
for the Editorial Team, A Hundred Gourds
Journal Announcements / A Hundred Gourds 4:4 released
September 01, 2015, 02:40:27 AM
A Hundred Gourds 4:4 released

It's the first day of spring in Melbourne. Blossoms are blooming, peas and broad beans are shooting up and the snails are leaving ample evidence that they've come out of hibernation. In North America, the bushfire/wildfire season is waning and the milder days of autumn approaching. The world still turns.

Welcome to the 16th issue of A Hundred Gourds, a quarterly journal of haiku, haibun, haiga, tanka and renku poetry is now online for your reading pleasure.

AHG 4.4 Feature

"The Second International Haiku Conference in Krakow, Poland (May 15-17, 2015)"

We're privileged to visit Poland via Brian Robertson's report on the Second International Haiku Conference in Krakow, which was held in May this year.  Both Brian's text and the accompanying photos convey, to those of us who couldn't be there, a sense of the friendliness, enthusiasm and expertise that was shared. Congratulations to all who were involved in this clearly very successful event!


Terry Ann Carter's essay, Chiyo-ni and Aisatsu: The Poetry of Greeting, demonstrates, with her selections of Chiyo-ni's haiku and contemporary EL haiku, a time-honoured social function of Japanese haiku.

Rob Scott reviews Robert Kania's 39 haiku, Susan Constable reviews Joy McCall's rising mist, fieldstones and Lorin Ford reviews Cherie Hunter Day's apology moon.

A Hundred Gourds
is still looking for a suitable editor for our Expositions section. Please direct any enquiries regarding the Expositions section and submit your book reviews, essays or commentaries on individual poems for AHG to me, Lorin, until further notice.

Submissions Deadline

The deadline for all submissions to AHG 5.1 (the December 2015 issue) is September 15th. AHG has an open submissions policy: any submissions received after the deadline will be filed for consideration for the March 2016 issue. Please check our submissions page for details and editors' guidelines.

Please take the time to read the AHG submissions page, including the editors' individual comments, and ensure that your submission complies with all requirements.

Lorin Ford – Haiku Editor, Managing Editor,
for the Editorial Team, A Hundred Gourds
Field Notes / Re: Field Notes 7: Off-topic discussion
August 11, 2014, 12:01:03 PM
Quote from: Richard Gilbert on August 07, 2014, 01:45:58 PM

sennsisha ga aoki suugaku yori detari 

war dead
exit out of a blue mathematics

Literally, in given word order:

戦死者 (sennsisha) = war dead (KIA)
が (ga) = (concerning [subject]: war dead)
青き数学 (aoki suugaku) = blue/natural/of nature
but! also:
unripe/unnatural (e.g. "This fruit is still "green" [unripe, not yet ready])
+ mathematics
より (yori) = showing "like" | comparison | connection
出たり (detari) = to come out of / exit

Thanks, Richard. This is useful. It's hard for me to know how to value an interpretation or rendition because I'm never sure if the English words carry even the mood that the author conveyed in the original, let alone the meaning, which also depends on things like movement, pace and emphasis, not just the words.

Quote from: Richard Gilbert on August 07, 2014, 01:45:58 PM

青き数学 = blue mathematics. This is in no dictionary, because this collocation is the poet's neologism.
. . .
It is true that "blue" has many added meanings in English. But then, "blue" (as "aoi") has many different meanings in Japanese, as well. In English, blue is a color of nature (ocean, sky) but also the "blue" of the blues, of sadness, tragedy, depression. In other words it (like "aoi") offers contrary, contrastive or contradictory meanings. so the use of "blue" for "blue" in Japanese is actually the only interpretive move, in the translation. The signifiers differ yet in both languages they are semantically complex and paradoxical or agonistic (polarized); a different poem is created, yet with a similar sense of agon, tension .

And that, above, too.

Yes, blue has many hues and many associations, but why has the poet chosen 'a blue mathematics'? When two words are put together like this, each changes the other. In relation to mathematics, my experience of 'blue' (in my imagination) becomes colder (is this just me, just a personal peculiarity?) It also becomes more the blue of distance (the further away things are hills ...the more blue they appear to be to the human eye) What I'm trying to say is that 'mathematics' must have an effect on how we experience 'blue', on what sort of blue we bring to mind, it's not just the other way around ('blue' as adjective qualifies 'mathematics' as noun)

出たり (detari) = to come out of / exit

Who is coming out of, exiting, leaving? (genuine question! ) Could it be the author/ poet himself, the one reflecting on the subject of the 'war dead'?  Or is it the 'war dead' who leave, exit, the last of their existence being as numbers accounted for in records?  Becoming a number as well as being dead seems to make those people ('the war dead' ... no names, nobody's son etc. ,nothing personal) into abstractions, but then...

Or do they return to mind, come out of abstraction as 'the war dead', individually and in groups,  into the memories of the living? Come out of, exit the cold, distant numbers of the death toll and haunt the living? Weigh on the poet's mind?

Blue with associations of cold and the colour of distant things, mathematics as measurement (and "measurement began our might" or the like from Yeats). The colour blue measured as having a shorter wavelength and higher frequency than all other visible colours apart from violet since the C19 (so, though 'leaving' the visible spectrum , not as far toward the end as violet ... & therefore more present than Dickinson's 'amethyst remembrance' that Sandra mentioned)

I'm a bit like Paul M.  The childhood fairytale that's lasted in my mind is 'The Emperor's New Clothes', so I admit to a chuckle at Paul M.'s "no pants" comment.  :D  The reality, though, is that I'm  more open to this 'war dead' ku than I am to many relatively contemporary American 'war dead' haiku, which strike me as sentimental and manipulative of the reader and all much the same. 

For me, this poem is cold and mysterious, with a haunting quality. I can't say I get it but I can't dismiss it. I know how I feel when I recall how many horses were killed in WW1. And how many Australian horses. The numbers are a cold weight.

Why is the mathematics blue, though? I can't fathom that any more than I can fathom the convention, in traditional Japanese verse, of having the autumn wind as white.

But I've not seen any objections to 'white wind' as a kigo.

Forgive the musings and stumblings and rambling ... it's all I can offer, it's where I am with this one.

- Lorin

The results for the Snapshot Press eChapbook Awards are now available on the Snapshot Press website:

The 2011 winners of The Snapshot Press eChapbook Awards are:

Chad Lee Robinson
Rope Marks (Haiku)

Carole MacRury
The Tang of Nasturtiums (Tanka)

Kathe L. Palka
As the Years Pass (Tanka)

Marian Olson
Consider This (Short Poetry)

Vanessa Proctor

Jacaranda Baby (Short Poetry, incl. haiku and tanka)

Lorin Ford
A Few Quick Brushstrokes (Short Poetry, incl. haiku)

Penny Harter
One Bowl (Haibun)

Beverly Acuff Momoi
Lifting the Towhee's Song (Haibun)

The winning collections will be published online by Snapshot Press throughout January and February, 2012.


A Hundred Gourds now has a temporary webpage where you will find the basic submission guidelines and information.

There is also an opt-in facility for those who would like to receive news and updates.

We welcome your submissions of haiku, tanka, haibun, haiga and articles/ essays relevant to the haikai genre for the March 2012 issue until the submissions closing date of December 15th, 2011.

Though the url for the inaugural issue in December will change slightly, the site will remain available via this link as well.

A big thank-you to Mike Rehling, who is generously hosting A Hundred Gourds.

Lorin Ford, haiku editor,
for the editorial team
A Hundred Gourds

Quote from: Grace on September 25, 2011, 09:04:21 AM
I don't understand the frowning on authorial comment when I read many haiku employing this method. Here are just two examples I have read, published online. Can anyone comment on this, please?

Plovers tickle
the ocean's
slipping tides.

crushed by an oaf
bleeds saffron tears.

With Alan, Grace, I suggest that you supply the author's name and the publication details with each poem. (Yes, even if you found them on Facebook)

I'm loathe to comment on poems that you might've posted (and therefore published here, since I don't think these non-workshopping forums are private) without the authors' permissions, so I'll just make a general comment.

What I think people usually mean if they point out 'authorial comment' as a criticism of a haiku is that it reads as if the author were trying to impose their views or judgements on the reader. The thumb all too clearly is seen on the scales.

Consider, would a dandelion bleed the same sort of tears whether it was crushed by an oaf or a sweet little two-year-old princess or a horse's hoof? What work is 'oaf' actually doing in this ku? What does it tell you, as a reader? And there comes the old adage for good writing so applicable to haiku: show, don't tell.

I won't go into 'bleeds tears', but I don't have a huge problem with saffron. Sure, the herb/food dye saffron comes from crocuses, but the word has been used to denote a colour ( saffron yellow) for a long time.

(The less said about the fashion for naming baby girls Saffron in the late 60s, the better  ::)  )

- Lorin
Other Haiku News / Re: Passing of Jan Bostok
September 23, 2011, 09:47:04 PM
Quote from: Billie Wilson on September 22, 2011, 04:22:45 PM
I echo the sadness and deep respect being expressed by the haiku community here and elsewhere on the web regarding our loss of Jan Bostok.  It was neat to see her poem on the Foundation's home page this morning.

A memorial page has now been created for her in the Haiku Registry to honor her memory and her many gifts to all of us.

With respect,

Hi Billie,

It's good to see the memorial page here at THF.

I'm not sure who to contact, but on the memorial page:

"...The Sidney Morning Herald (September 14, 2011)..."

should be corrected to 'The Sydney Morning Herald'.

There will be a memorial for Jan in the first issue of 'A Hundred Gourds' in December, as well. I have the copyright holder (Jan's daughter) Vicki's permission to use content from Jan's website and elsewhere and Sharon Dean's permission to use various of her material as well.

- Lorin
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