The Haiku Foundation Forums

Hi, this threads warming up nicely. Some interesting insights which I will be pondering in the days to come. Here is a first thought or two, purely from my own ongoing studentship of haiku:

Two distinct verbal aspects become apparent when we first regard the words used to present a little haiku movie to the mind's eye. Firstly, the 'signpost' words which conjure the haiku's basic movie elements.

Secondly, we dowse the implications of the words and their grammatical combination. This focuses and begins to collate the haiku movie elements which are presenting. At this juncture our mind tries to solve the riddle presented thus far. In doing this the dispirate elements start to compose as a synergic whole.

Then, the haiku movie starts to materialise (in the right brain, from the left brain verbal triggers - for those into this way of thinking). Of course, this is not the end of the matter. The haiku movie now begins to deepen; we move through various filters which our brain uses to sequence and screen the data. By contemplating a haiku to its depth (the ideal) we hope to, finally, arrive at, more or less, its truth.

From here on in this whole fascinating process can get quite diffuse, as we connote and the haiku connotes. To compound the meditation's challenge we have those pesky little vortexes (MA) that can lead out into so many other issues altogether (some intended, some not). Not only this; a flip into the labyrinthine infinite (Zoka) may occur.

The trick, as we know, is to gently keep returning to our haiku movie - perhaps bookmarking other lines of thought for another time. At each step of the way we can get stuck at one of the inward journey's stages - and often do. (Be careful not to be fooled by this.)

However, if the spirit moves us, we return again and again to a particular favourite haiku, and press on. For example, I've been reading and re-reading Basho's masterpiece, you know, set at that old pond, for many years and still it has more to say about itself each time I engage with Matsuo's wonderful haiku diorama.

Hi, this threads warming up nicely. Some interesting insights which I will be pondering in the days to come. Here is a first thought or two, purely from my own ongoing studentship of haiku:

Two distinct verbal aspects become apparent when we first regard the words used to present a little haiku movie to the mind's eye. Firstly, the 'signpost' words which conjure the haiku's basic movie elements. Secondly, we dowse the implications of the words and their grammatical combination. This focuses and begins to collate the haiku movie elements which are presenting. At this juncture our mind tries to solve the riddle presented thus far. In doing this the dispirate elements start to compose as a synergic whole. Then, the haiku movie starts to materialise (in the right brain, from the left brain verbal triggers - for those into this way of thinking). Of course, this is not the end of the matter. The haiku movie now begins to deepen; we move through various filters which our brain sequences and screens the data. By contemplating a haiku to its depth (the ideal) we hope to, finally, arrive at, more or less, its truth. From here on in this whole fascinating process can get quite diffuse, as we connote and the haiku connotes. To compound the meditation's challenge we have those pesky little vortexes (MA) that can lead out into so many other issues altogether (some intended, some not). Not only this; a flip into the labyrinthine infinite (Zoka) may occur. The trick, as we know, is to gently keep returning to our haiku movie - perhaps bookmarking other lines of thought for another time. At each step of the way we can get stuck at one of the inward journey's stages - and often do. (Be careful not to be fooled by this.) However, if the spirit moves us, we return again and again to a particular favourite haiku, and press on. For example, I've been reading and re-reading Basho's masterpiece, you know, set at that old pond, for many years and it still it has more to say about itself each time I engage with Matsuo's wonderful haiku diorama.

Hi, Alan and Tomdevelyn - interesting responses, so far.

Stained glass windows What a wonderful metaphor of conscious awareness these beautiful things are. Better, in some ways, than the old movie projector analogy. You know; light source - film - screen. The idea being, of course, to illustrate how one becomes diverified (Tao's: '10,000 things'). The figure/ground concept of psychology comes to mind, also. Haiku can be related to all this quite well. The words of a haiku being the stained glass's articulation of light; whilst sunlight itself plays the part of the luminous infinite. (White Tara of Tibetan buddhist iconography.) No, it's not about Christianity, not as used in this topic's title. A useful abstract model, perhaps.

Reading the classics of haiku, out of old Japan, we cannot help but be made aware of a depth surrounding the mental mirage of everyday life that can sometimes make us shiver in our haiku walking boots. We are reminded that all around us is a mystery in process so vast and pressing that, when we gravitate back to our daily mundane tasks, it bugs us. Reading much that passes for haiku here in the humanist and scientific West, I cannot help but wonder where that, at least nodding, respect to the infinite has got lost along the haiku way. What, if anything, should we do about that - any ideas?


On a journey,
Resting beneath the cherry blossoms,
I feel myself to be in a Noh play.

— Basho


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Note: There are many technical terms that can help us understand the more mystical aspects of haiku and its practice. However, leaving these aside as a requirement, what are members own intuitive feelings about the implications enbedded in this topic's question. Just being alive qualifies you to respond. No worries about being clever, proving it using Google Search and presenting reams of curriculum vitae. Plain language and sincerity is fine. Whether you're a haiku tadpole or a haiku frog - share your views! ^_^

And your point is, Chibi575?









                                                atomic

Quote from: chibi575 on August 18, 2011, 08:08:44 PM
And now for something completely different... "chibiku":










                                                             SPAM









(tip of the hat to Cor)

Yes, Gabi Greve, but what (on earth) does you mean? (puzzled)

Quote from: Gabi Greve on August 18, 2011, 07:31:06 PM
I promised myself not to post on this thread any more, but here is a quote from this morning, which I think is good to share.

Niels Bohr said,

"The opposite of a fact is a falsehood,
but the opposite of one profound truth
may very well be another profound truth."


Greetings from a sweltering humid Japan
Gabi

I'd say Pluto was spelled with a capital 'P', Darrell ^_^ But, yes, good point. Let's do anything we like and call it 'haiku' - who knows, we may be able to fool a tadpole! Seriously, though, I do think we need to provide some sort of a compass, with a map, even. I mean; is an epigram a haiku because it is, typically, brief, you know, pithy with a succinct meaning? Is a snowdrop a thistle when we're not looking, or are they both plants and that's good enough for making soup out of? What (and how) do you reckon?

Quote from: Darrell on August 18, 2011, 06:23:39 PM
haikurambler,
  Is pluto a planet? some scientist say yes, others say no, who is right? who is wrong?
  I suspect individual haiku are like pluto. Was a plant, then wasn't a planet, all because the definition of what a planet is has changed. Will it change again in the future? Will pluto get its title back?

a haiku student, darrell

As previously mentioned, Alan, I currently take no sides in this 'show not tell' debate. It's simply raised to learn what members think about this relevant issue, and, hopefully, to learn from that - particularly in the light of the old school's haiku virtual movie making tradition.

The only credentials I and many others may have, by the way, are those of a self-taught amateur haiku enthusiast and eternal student. Let's measure the responses anyone here makes by their immediate quality.

As an aside. I did ceramics (in the tradition of Bernard Leach and Shoji Hamada) for many years. After training (Bath Acadamy of Art & Design) most of us got some paper to show for it (a rated honours degree). But, only three of us went pro (out of thirty). A handful went into teaching art for a while, some stuck to that. The rest were, essentially, and God bless 'em, totally hapless despite their degrees. As a young fellow this taught a valuable life lesson about the ubiquitous hypocrisy of 'official' credentials. I learned that it's best to evaluate actions on the ground, with a bright eye, in the here and now.

Quote from: Alan Summers on August 18, 2011, 06:20:33 PM
I think it might be good, partly as a personal statement, if we simply pop in half a dozen examples of our own, and a few, as John has done, of our contemporary favourites.

Otherwise it feels like we might go round and round in circles discussing what is and what isn't Show don't Tell, without showing our own published record of work and direction as an artist, supposedly in the haikai camp or at least in the poetry camp, of which you say SNT aka Show don't Tell is the main criteria.

We can then all do a poll of sorts, and all the rest that is demanded of us.

all my best,

Alan

Quote from: haikurambler on August 18, 2011, 06:12:30 PM
Hi, Alan.

Yes, a good idea. Examples to support statements. (Perhaps a lesser number of specimens would be acceptable, or, I expect, many will be put off.) However, if people want to chip in a quick response, then this is fine, at least by me. If it's not, then a challenge to support an obscure claim may be requested.

Meanwhile, in the role of this topic's impartial question provider, and, as such, with no axe to grind either way, I'll let members have their own say, without, you know, meddling with the flow of opinion. I will assist in keeping the focus on track, though.

As you say, this subject may generate a lot of useful insights into what's going on under the wee bonnets of little haiku internationale.

Interesting selection of examples, John. I like them all. Also, in each one the point is made with its own scenario. The 'showing'. Lets address the first on your menu, the 'hippo' one:


cherry blossoms fall—
you too must become
a hippo


Here we are witness to the recycling of nature via an evoked virtual diorama in our mind's eye. In this case the material of cherry blossoms, in all their light and luminous transient glory, will, possibly, eventually form the mass a heavy and cumbrous hippopotamus being. The scene unfolds probably at a zoo. We deepen into the haiku dream. The dream's visualisation, as we get into it, shows us blossoms turning into mulch and the mulch turning into other things, in this case becoming part of a hippo. The contrast between the two surface images (blossoms and hippo) is somewhat startling, and grabs our attention well enough. Then we move to the inner illustrations of recycling of matter. You know, 'we are starlight we are golden', type thing.

I can run the same analytical response, but with different impressions of meaning, of course, through the rest of these interesting ku you've sourced, if you like. However; firstly, how do react to this commentary - quickie that it be, and, secondly, can you 'see' the vision enbedded in each of your examples, which evidences each one's 'show' feature?

This does not mean, by the way, that I take a position either way regarding telling and showing in the context of this topic's question. I'm currently in  neutral, like Switzerland was, back in Hitler's day, if you will. Perhaps, during the course of this thread, we may be swayed one way or t'other - as they say up North, in my youthful homeland of bonnie Cumbria.


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How do other members respond to these examples? Go for it . . .

Quote from: John McManus on August 18, 2011, 05:56:06 PM
Okay, here are some haiku which I believe don't have the 'show don't tell' technique, but I do believe they are still haiku.


cherry blossoms fall—
you too must become
a hippo

Tsubouchi Nenten


Athelete's foot itches—
still can't become
Hitler

Hoshinaga Fumio


In winter rains I'm listening to a nurse's tale

Fujiki Kiyoko


say it so it sounds like starling she says

Chris Gordon

Hi, Alan.

Yes, a good idea. Examples to support statements. (Perhaps a lesser number of specimens would be acceptable, or, I expect, many will be put off.) However, if people want to chip in a quick response, then this is fine, at least by me. If it's not, then a challenge to support an obscure claim may be requested.

Meanwhile, in the role of this topic's impartial question provider, and, as such, with no axe to grind either way, I'll let members have their own say, without, you know, meddling with the flow of opinion. I will assist in keeping the focus on track, though.

As you say, this subject may generate a lot of useful insights into what's going on under the wee bonnets of little haiku internationale.

Hi Chibi.

That's an interesting observation - the in/out box idea. It seems so cut and dried. So reassuringly black and white. I like it. However, a notion came to mind; how would this relate to orbital bodies around a planet? By which I mean, is there a possibility of haiku being haiku in some external relationship to your box, rather than actually being required to be in it? Perhaps budding off into other forms, eventually. You know; evolution and mutation, DNA jiggery-pokery, or some other transformational thingummyjiggeries which subsume natural mutation. I suspect there is, but how would this apply to little haiku and its formal classification in the schemas of linguistic sanity?


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What do other readers of this interesting and heady thread reckon? Do share . . .

Hi, John.

Thanks for the background. But, how do you specifically respond to this threads question? if you pop in a couple of examples of haiku which demonstrate your suggestions, then that may be useful for everyone to learn from and respond to. (Bear in mind we're contrasting 'tell' with 'show', with respect to haiku only)


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Do feel free to jump in this little pond, everyone - your ideas will be constructive, I'm sure.

Hi, John.

Yes, I've floated a topic question. What are your views about this thread's subject? Towards the end we can run a synopsis and see what's been turned up in the mix.

More precisely, is: Show, Not Tell, the primary foundation of haiku, without which we have an epigram or whatever? If we were to eliminate just one formal element from a haiku, which one would be the one to render a haiku not a haiku - you know, that would bring the house tumbling down?


a frog jumping
into an old pond
makes a noise

~anon


old pond
a frog jumps in
the sound of water

~Basho


Here's an interesting item to focus the mind:
http://www.writedesignonline.com/assignments/shownottell.html

So, in a nutshell, or a pea green boat, even, we are moving into a new haiku world. On the shoulders of a geophysical/kigo model, utilising; show not tell, kireji... and all the other fundamental haiku devices that make the original haiku form tick. These devices being our tools, to select from; perhaps carried over our shoulder on a stick as we walk off the mesa, like that Tarot fool, Carlos, out  in old Mexico. Maybe even getting back home from Nutwood, like Rupert Bear, in time for tea! The idea of identifying levels of distinct consciousness. These 'other worlds' of mythic and mystic experience. Perchance, blending these transdimensional universes, eventually (or initially more like), whilst we focus our rose-coloured spectacles, our psychic goggles, on these strange new landscapes. Yes! I can dig that. Let's evolve. Haiku: Level-42. Cool.


in a flight of fancy—
the butterflies seem more
than their wings


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You've got some interesting ideas going for you there, Scott. May the Force be with be with us all.