The Haiku Foundation Forums

Quote from: John McManus on July 20, 2012, 03:42:17 PMYou do not have my permission to quote me under any circumstance in any form of media.

If you are not keen on standing by your previous opinion, that's not a problem.

QuoteJohn, the only way the above verse can be a hokku is if you're planning on it being the opening verse of a linked verse. - John McManus

However, if it is the case that you feel your previous opinion to be in need of modification, then what actually is your opinion now? Try to stay with the topic. Here's a tighter focus for this threads growing fan base to consider:


so scruffy and crass
the sparrow's children-
splashing in dust

jp


old pond
a frog jumps in
the sound of water

Basho


Which one is a haiku and which one is a hokku; or are they both haiku; or both hokku?

Quote from: John McManus on July 20, 2012, 06:48:17 AM
And why would you want to quote me John?

I'm currently preparing an article -- partially to deepen my own understanding of this often misunderstood question.

Quoteso scruffy and crass
the sparrow's children-
splashing in dust

jp

John, the only way the above verse can be a hokku is if you're planning on it being the opening verse of a linked verse. - John McManus

Let's run your opinion (and other members are invited to respond also) using the following well-known ku as a focus now:

old pond
a frog jumps in
the sound of water

- Basho, 1644 – 1694
(common translation)

Quote from: John McManus on July 20, 2012, 05:21:26 AM
John, the only way the above verse can be a hokku is if you're planning on it being the opening verse of a linked verse.

Why on earth would you want to call it a hokku if it's a standalone verse? I think there's enough debate over what a haiku is and isn't already. There's no need to muddy the waters any further.

warmest,
John

Can I quote you on that?

By hokku we mean pre-Shiki (especially the http://bit.ly/big-5 of Nippon's classical period). By haiku we mean post-Shiki (in the global sense as well as regionally in Japan). Some may suggest another watershed, and others still may propose that there is no division. Whatever your perspective feel free to share any ideas in your own words.

For focus: Is the following a haiku, hokku, or neither?

so scruffy and crass
the sparrow's children-
splashing in dust

jp

I'm finding it increasingly difficult to understand what you're talking about. Please speak plainly (avoid metaphorical obfuscation if you can). We're addressing ku. Small Nippon songs or poems. The reason for this distinction is that hokku and/or haiku, also senryu and zappai, are contentious terms, especially outside of Japanese culture. We can call the entire tercet (et al) micropoetic genre (which deems itself haiku) something more universally acceptable for the purposes of this post's question. Thus, ku. If you like (and, if you know the difference sufficiently to present your response clearly and in plain language), speak of haiku or hokku and so on (and I will assume ku...to avoid off-topic meanderings into dreamland's contentious, anything goes, jazz). I also request that you speak in your own words, succinctly and to the point. You know, rather than links to slabs of other people's opinion (which are well enough known in any case). Thanks.

Quote from: threebirds on December 20, 2011, 04:19:26 AM

Quote from: haikurambler on September 29, 2011, 02:27:31 AM
The question might have been: Can we ever fathom a ku?

One answer could be can one ever purposefully question what is life? Haiku is a breath; a moment; the wind; the sound of the wind; its movement through branches; the shadow cast at dawn; hoar frost pressed against a footprint. It takes being away to step back from something to gain perspective but how does one step back and assess something which is already ten paces behind the viewer at any given moment?

No. The question is as stated. There is a difference. The key idea, here, is 'what do we mean?'. Clearly this can be applied to anything. However, in this post of mine it refers to a ku (small Nippon 'poem'). Only this and nothing more.

Yes, many target radii from the centre. We need a comprehensive map of the haiku universe. I propose a spherical model (based on a seasonal calander in 3D, in movement through time). What do you think?

Yes, a dense work but worth the while of its unloading. John's reference is one of the best, to gain a deeper overview of ma. Worth returning to in the light of changes. But the book still needs to be written on ma.

The liminal. The place that is neither here nor there. In---between. We think of this as a narrow space, as we cross. However, as we stand between the worlds of yesterday and tomorrow, this space is boundlessly everything and eternal. Thus, ma also. Mu (nothingness) evokes ma (nothingness in potentia). When we enter a haiku-ma it is like a Noh play. The narrow stage turns into a boundless universe, filled with meaningful events. In the Noh-pauses, this is amplified to a further order of magnitude. This is a working model to contemplate. Also, imagine (in your own focus of ma-space - between stimulus and response) the logical sequence (cognitively) from nothing to something. The birthing/transition-space is ma. In the early stage, ma in potentia, an empty vacuole - at the threshold between nothing and something (which has yet to occur). In fact, the threshold of a dream.

Standing on a bridge is a good place to watch the temporal river flow. In this condition we can experience eternity. A timeless place where our best haiku are born - in the same manner as any bright universe out of the darkness of unknowing, of nothingness.

(Read it like a haiku.)

NOTE
Just a first reaction to the last comment. I'll ponder again to see what else arises, Thanks for this.

Hi Jack

The more I've deepened into the mystery that the Nippon 'aesthetic' of ma indicates the more it shows about the plasticity of this imagination-space.The kireji is one way of shaping or conditioning ma-space. Often I see this as a Noh stage. Apt, because of the nature of the silences that move the sequence of the Noh drama along. In the Noh-pauses (every so often all is motionless and silent) the audience get a chance to absorb the implicit inner-life of the theatrical production's content. There is a very good case, I feel, for ignoring all formal considerations and simply keeping a haiku red dirt simple, stripped of all cues and assuming the unconscious will sort things out perfectly adequately for the readers understanding. However, the tradition is not this and so, what is the tradition (and beyond)? This is my query of ma. Another point is that haiku are, again traditionally, read aloud. So, that would be needing to be transcribed in the haiku's written script, so to say. Primarily this is a function of the cutting word (kireji). I'd say our choice of adding punctuation (to stand in for kireji as a surrogate) does make a difference to the experience of a haiku. A profound difference.

John

Hi Chris, apologies for the delay. Yes, I've bookmarked your link and appreciate it. Will puruse over the next day or so and see how it goes. . . .

John

DOES HAIKU-VISION OVERRULE PAVLOVIAN REFLEX?

In other words, can we step out of our dog suits into the real if we do haiku properly and evolve our consciousness' potential a bit. Which begs the question, is it possible, with a western mind-set, to do this magical act - especially given the ubiquitous confusion which surrounds the whole business of haiku, over here in Paradise?


John

Quote from: Adelaide on September 29, 2011, 09:09:20 AM
Can we ever fathom a ku?  By fathom I assume you mean: to penetrate to the truth of; to comprehend; to understand: (all meanings found in any dictionary)

When a poet writes a haiku we assume he knows and understands what he means; he is aware of the experience he wants to express and tries to express it in words following the haiku format.  The difficulty is in finding just the exact words which will give the reader the same experience. That in itself is an impossibility, since no two people are exactly alike.  The same experience will be filtered differently through different people. So then the poet hopes his words will give the reader a similar experience, an experience to which he can relate. If a reader does not fathom a haiku, the fault could be in either the reader or the poet: the poet is not clear enough in his choice of words or the reader is too removed from the time and place or has never had an experience remotely similar.

That being said, what if the poet himself doesn't quite know what he has experienced in regards to his emotions? Often, from personal experience, an incident, an image, a sensation occurs which I feel I must capture, but I'm not sure of what it is I want to capture. The feeling is so elusive that it defies words.  However, words are all I have, so I try to find the right ones.  The resulting haiku may or not be clear, even to myself. The shortness of haiku creates this challenge.

Scraping old paint–
through the open window,
spring dampness

A few years ago the above haiku of mine was published in MAYFLY. To this day I'm not sure what I wanted to capture–the ordinariness of the activity, the sound of the scrapper, the sounds from outside muffled by the fog (which I didn't mention but perhaps should have) the old paint chipped away, the new green just appearing on the trees, the energy I felt (it was early and I wasn't tired of the job as of yet) all of that and more. I don't know what Randy and Shirley Brooks saw in this haiku when they accepted it.  They must have seen and understood something, perhaps not exactly what I saw, but something that, for them, made it a haiku worthy enough to be published.

To get back to your question:  Can we ever fathom a haiku?  My answer is yes, to a certain degree. Only the poet can really understand what he means; the reader can only make a stab at it.


Adelaide

Hi Adelaide

Yes, to get to the bottom of the pond, so to say. Plumb its depths to the heart and soul of the matter at hand. I think it's  possible to approach this ideal. Certainly worth going for. But, needs practice like anything else, I guess.

You make some very good points. This notion that we know what we have written is a curious one. I find that, years later, I'm still riddling the meanings of haiku that, on the surface I know well enough, but, deeper down, are still unfolding their information.

Your own ku is interesting. At first I was getting you scraping paint off the view outside your window! :O) Obviously it was a hit with the people over at Mayfly Haiku Mag. Did you ever think to ask how they'd 'read' it?

When I write haiku it's usually from a real life experience. I try to resolve the whole experience as it happens. If I cannot, then as soon as I'm back from my haiku wanderings, it gets addressed. Tonight, for example, I caught a few owls hooting across the valley. Linking up the dimensions of the landscape. So, later I will join up the dots on my mental notes. This is a crude outline:


under Orion's orbit
a loose matrix of owl hoots
measures the world


I'm not at all happy with it. However, it's a start and places the event in a holding pattern. (Orion can be seen here in rainy England, during the dark half of the year. It's an old friend.)


Point is, I know what's to be expressed, it's how to do it, in this instance. On other occasions the thing is birthed complete and often the better for it. When it comes complete, that's probably due to undistracted contemplation? If I get it right, any reader should experience what I did?


John

Basho's frog haiku.

Here's my own translation, from years ago, which I subsequently diiscovered was coefficient with Jane's (and, for the same reason - do you know what that reason is, incidentally?). . . .


old pond
a frog jumps in
the sound of water


Now. I've been returning to this astonishing non-rhyming tercet by the great man regularly for years. Every so often somethng new is realised. When it was first read, back in the day, it seemed so straight forward, you know, a child's picture story. However, as time marched irrevocably onwards, my understanding of THE KU IN ITSELF and one's PERSONAL REACTION TO THE KU MATERIAL deepened (as I continued the dive).

Thus is the basis of my question. It not only applies to other's ku, you see, but also, in my own experience, our own ku. The question might have been: Can we ever fathom a ku? So, maybe that can pad quietly in the background, also. . . .


jp

Hi everyone

Just been asking this question over at Jane's forum and wondered if anyone could throw some light on it here:


How would YOU translate ma?


My position. . . .

Trying to deepen understanding (and skill set) in relation to ma (its been an ongoing, back-burner sort of project for a few months). Currently I'm exploring it from the roots up (again). There are glyphs that contribute towards the meaning of the ideogram. They picture a torii type gateway. We seem to have 'betweeness' as the catchphrase.



This interval 'aspect' of ma appears to be arrived at by defining the glyphs separately, then synthesising the result, and this in relation to Japanese aesthetic usage. We seem to have 'door' and 'sun or day' for the parts. Would you agree with that, yourself? I have a hunch, you see, that there's more to ma than its application in aesthetics - or rather, it may be that understanding is still not fully delivered yet to us 'foreigners' outside of Nippon. If there is a larger context to ma, then this may enlighten some of the deeper issues in the practice and enjoyment of haiku. In fact, haiku may be much more than, to date, has been documented, anywhere - even by the 'experts'?

jp

Image source:
http://www.jp41.com/kanji/ma.html

Hi nobhodi (good luck with that) ^_^

Is haiku an expression of Buddhism — or is Buddhism an adjunct of haiku ?

I'd say that haiku is a product of a complex cultural religious background. Not at all exclusively Buddhist.

Also, since the publication of: Bashō and the Dao: the Zhuangzi and the transformation of Haikai By Peipei Qiu [sample it here -  http://goo.gl/96MNQ] We have a whole renaisance of Tao ideas back in old Japan (especially the somewhat eccentric wayless way of Zhuangzi (Chuang Tzu) - who towers beside Laozi, apparently. To break out of the mould of populist poetry forms, the more sophisticated haiki players in the floating world of Edo and precincts, went ape over, what one Benedictine monk nutshelled as (and not without humour):     

"You enter upon the way of Chuang Tzu when you leave all ways and get lost." ~ Thomas Merton

The great wayless way traveller himself, Basho, is said to have modelled his entire haiku methodology, to no small extent, on the back of this refreshing new wave of Tao knowledge, in his later years. And who could deny he did an outstanding job with it?

So, you know, my point is, that since the early days of haiku's diaspora and certainly as mediated by the beatniks Zen craze, people have fallen into the trance of inserting haiku into, or proclaiming haiku to be the one and only: 'literature of Zen'. Clearly this is myopic nonsense.

So, anyway, your initial question is seriously biased and needs qualified. Haiku, whether in its ancient or modern forms, is NOT Buddhist per se at all, you see. This is a folk legend. At best. Certainly we can do haiku through our particular personal and/or cultural filters, sure - but, lets not be duped into thinking this is the heart and soul of this mysterious little form of insight and expression we all dig. Not by a long chalk.


jp