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In-Depth Discussions => In-Depth Haiku: Free Discussion Area => Topic started by: Jennifer Sutherland on December 03, 2016, 08:17:39 AM

Title: Déjà ku or rip off - you decide !
Post by: Jennifer Sutherland on December 03, 2016, 08:17:39 AM
the original -

no way out
Deaths at the door
demanding candy

- Leroy Gorman





Halloween
a witch with dental braces
demanding candy


Mary Hind ( Melbourne Australia)
Mianichi news.japan Dec 1st 2016





Title: Re: Déjà ku or rip off - you decide !
Post by: Anna on December 03, 2016, 11:15:14 PM
What is this all about ... I read two haiku but have no clue as to what you are saying, Jennifer ...
Title: Re: Déjà ku or rip off - you decide !
Post by: Jennifer Sutherland on December 03, 2016, 11:44:04 PM
I thought the title of my comment explained the context of the post.

Yes there are two haiku.

The first written by Leroy Gorman and reasonably well known.

The second submitted by Mary Hind has been published recently on Mianichi news.

The subject matter is not only the same but there is a direct repeat of line 3.

Is this déjà-ku or a rip off of Gorman's senryu?

( reference Micheal Dylan Welch's extensive articles on dejaku on Graceguts)




Title: Re: Déjà ku or rip off - you decide !
Post by: Anna on December 04, 2016, 12:09:22 AM
Sorry Jennifer, but I did not get the title. I did notice the third lines are the same.  But it is a common expression: to demand candy ...

I dunno. Maybe it is just a coincidence...

I never read the popular one or the other one either ...
Title: Re: Déjà ku or rip off - you decide !
Post by: Anna on December 04, 2016, 12:59:16 AM
One other thing which I would like to insist upon: I think until tried and judged, everyone and everything should be afforded the benefit of doubt.

The thing is, the badge weighs, ... and an open forum may be too strong a place...what do you think?
If indeed deja-ku ...what then?
What would the amends be? Would an amend be possible?

I have to still read the essay and thankyou for the link. (I ran up to my study before lunch because I had to say this...now at least I know I did say what I thought was a honest response. I would not be able to eat in peace otherwise. )





Title: Re: Déjà ku or rip off - you decide !
Post by: Jennifer Sutherland on December 04, 2016, 05:23:22 AM
Thanks for your response Anna.

I can honestly say that being Australian myself, "demanding candy" is not a common phrase in Australia.

What is referred to as candy in the USA is what we call "lollies" here in Aus.

Should I ever have the misfortune to commit deja-ku, I would hope that some one would bring my attention to it so at the very least I could apologise to the original poet.

There seems to be an increasingly common occurrence in the haiku community and I for one think it's reasonable to raise discussions around this topic and state the names of poets where examples are discovered on this Haiku Foundation forum or any other.

I have had the misfortune of having had someone plagiarise my own haiku ( and have it published) so know how it feels.  Just let's say that if I ever meet that poet, well  he won't forget meeting ...
Title: Re: Déjà ku or rip off - you decide !
Post by: Anna on December 04, 2016, 11:11:15 AM
When I read, I too come across many many poems that are so similar that it shocks me...not always into silence... I don't know whether that is plagiarism, given that there are only so many natural themes to write about. But then again, there is that particular signature style that one cultivates.

Thank you for your response. It takes courage to say it.

Title: Re: Déjà ku or rip off - you decide !
Post by: Lorraine Pester on December 04, 2016, 12:01:39 PM
Thanks for your response Anna.

I can honestly say that being Australian myself, "demanding candy" is not a common phrase in Australia.

What is referred to as candy in the USA is what we call "lollies" here in Aus.

Should I ever have the misfortune to commit deja-ku, I would hope that some one would bring my attention to it so at the very least I could apologise to the original poet.

There seems to be an increasingly common occurrence in the haiku community and I for one think it's reasonable to raise discussions around this topic and state the names of poets where examples are discovered on this Haiku Foundation forum or any other.

I have had the misfortune of having had someone plagiarise my own haiku ( and have it published) so know how it feels.  Just let's say that if I ever meet that poet, well  he won't forget meeting ...

Jennifer,

I think it's safe to say that no matter what kind of artist you are, it's a matter of when you have work stolen, not if. And there are the themes that are popular at a particular time. It gives it a feel that everybody's work is about the same thing.

Sorry to hear your was stolen and published. I'm sure you've learned by now how to stay on top of that. I read an article on using other people's work as the basis of your own. The gist was that if (digital art in this case) could be so altered so it was unrecognizable from the original, then copyright was not a problem. Really??

I understand what you are talking about and agree with Anna's response.

Lorraine
Title: Re: Déjà ku or rip off - you decide !
Post by: sandra on December 08, 2016, 06:40:53 PM
Hi Jennifer,

As you may be aware, the issue of plagiarism is one which interests me.

I wrote this article for Haiku NewZ, published in November 2013: http://www.poetrysociety.org.nz/plagiarisminhaiku

To which Michael Dylan Welch composed a response/an extension, published the following month:
http://www.poetrysociety.org.nz/plagiarismbymdw

I recently approached the editor of well-known journal about a haiku that I felt was 'too close' to one I consider to be well known. The editor approached the author (who is 'new to haiku') and received in reply a defence of the new haiku, along the lines of 'it's a well-known and common phrase'.

Which is true. It helped that the author apologised, and claimed no knowledge of the earlier one, which could well be correct.

So there are a lot of grey areas - and there must surely be innocent overlap of content as well as the occasional devious mick-taker. I love and respect the fact that the haiku community is very trusting -  long may it last.

Best wishes,
Sandra
Title: Re: Déjà ku or rip off - you decide !
Post by: Jennifer Sutherland on December 09, 2016, 07:08:11 AM
Hi Sandra,

Thank you so much for your reply.
I have read your articles on Haiku NZ and visit the website every month to keep up to date with global haiku news.
I have read your articles on the issue of plagiarism and also read Micheal Dylan Welch's response with much interest.

I appreciate that there are grey areas and certainly we share a lot of personal experiences as writers so subject matter will overlap. We also read the same journals and can easily be influenced by other poets work.

The haiku community, in my opinion, is rather unique as it seems to consist within an inner circle that very occasionally overlaps with the larger poetry community worldwide.

I acknowledge that there is a sense of trust amongst most of the community yet at the same time I wonder if sometimes its sometimes taken advantage of by those who are publication hungry, ignorant or simply dishonest?

 I think haiku writers need to be aware of searching for our own unique voice and with every haiku we submit for publication, ask ourselves the question, have I read this before?

Best Regards,

Jennifer



Title: Re: Déjà ku or rip off - you decide !
Post by: sandra on December 09, 2016, 09:59:07 PM
I think haiku writers need to be aware of searching for our own unique voice and with every haiku we submit for publication, ask ourselves the question, have I read this before?


Very well put Jennifer. I couldn't agree more.

Title: Re: Déjà ku or rip off - you decide !
Post by: Anna on December 13, 2016, 02:22:13 AM
 I was very much taken by Michael Dylan Welch's  essays on deja-ku and I think a certain amount of - haiku literacy - is essential...for everyone, the key word here being - everyone...

the -ma - in my words,  I know will be understood by the better of the gaijin...






 
Title: Re: Déjà ku or rip off - you decide !
Post by: Lorraine Pester on December 13, 2016, 07:21:03 AM

I took a MOOC several years ago from the Writing University at the University of Iowa(or something like that) called How Writers Write Poetry (or something like that).

One of the weeks focused on taking a piece or pieces of published writing and scavenging parts to create a new piece of work. This also was similar to text erasing. This was mainly shown to be a way to get the writer out of a rut or get new ideas generated. We were encouraged to incorporate text from multiple authors. It was made clear that we were to give credit where credit was due, even though it was just a practice exercise.

Fast forward to this year where an author was published using this technique and without giving credit. Don't remember who it was, but plagiarism will haunt her forever. Did she take a writing exercise too far? And indeed, who else has done the same, inadvertently encouraged by the teaching community?
Title: Re: Déjà ku or rip off - you decide !
Post by: Anna on December 13, 2016, 10:19:57 PM
Lorraine,

I think I did it by scavenging parts of my own poems... was it mentioned that they have to be poems of others or did people interpret it their own way?  I certainly did scavenge from my own poems and voila! My poem was workshopped ...

I have with me Robin Behn and Chase Twichell's  The Practice of Poetry even as I type this, I also have Prof Robert Pinsky's  The Singing School and of course Robert Hass' Essential Haiku...

But that is all poetry, and poetry prompts...I don't think I ever did even one of the exercises that Robin Behn's book has in there, by obeying it to the T...it just is a trigger.

So, coming back to haiku and gendai haiku,  and trying to make sense of what I just said here are a few things for us to consider before we sit and go on a Miso suppe surprise adventure and write our own haiku or allied forms:

--- gendai haiku is newer of the poetic forms
--- there is really no specific pattern, or format,  though many prefer to have the noun and adjective in the first line

---despite which we write our own kind of stuff... I would recognise your work even when your name is not mentioned, I think many would know mine ...

---does not mean that I may use the same third line or first line or whatever, though never consciously...

---haiku literacy is necessary, we all need to read and read and read. If someone is imitating the Jane Reichhold horse shadow haiku, damn, but I can spot it as can you. If someone is doing a Kacian,  we all can and do know, and not necessarily Jim only, right

--- I would say that I am with Michael Dylan Welch in this, inform the editor, though God knows, I would like the editor to know before the poem is out in print... and then let the sleeping dogs lie... there is only so much that one can do, and most of it is how one composes  one's own work. I assure you, I have done it once and the answer ensured me that it is one place I don't want to see my work published in. Yes.  We need to know what our principles are and never ever compromise on that front.


--- read all the essays in graceguts  on  Deja ku or ever otherwise

---read read read,  write write write, revise revise revise,  ask for an opinion when we can.

--- and may the Gods favour the honest and the brave. Amen



 
Title: Re: Déjà ku or rip off - you decide !
Post by: Lorraine Pester on December 16, 2016, 08:24:47 AM
Lorraine,

I think I did it by scavenging parts of my own poems... was it mentioned that they have to be poems of others or did people interpret it their own way?  I certainly did scavenge from my own poems and voila! My poem was workshopped ...

I have with me Robin Behn and Chase Twichell's  The Practice of Poetry even as I type this, I also have Prof Robert Pinsky's  The Singing School and of course Robert Hass' Essential Haiku...

But that is all poetry, and poetry prompts...I don't think I ever did even one of the exercises that Robin Behn's book has in there, by obeying it to the T...it just is a trigger.

So, coming back to haiku and gendai haiku,  and trying to make sense of what I just said here are a few things for us to consider before we sit and go on a Miso suppe surprise adventure and write our own haiku or allied forms:

--- gendai haiku is newer of the poetic forms
--- there is really no specific pattern, or format,  though many prefer to have the noun and adjective in the first line

---despite which we write our own kind of stuff... I would recognise your work even when your name is not mentioned, I think many would know mine ...

---does not mean that I may use the same third line or first line or whatever, though never consciously...

---haiku literacy is necessary, we all need to read and read and read. If someone is imitating the Jane Reichhold horse shadow haiku, damn, but I can spot it as can you. If someone is doing a Kacian,  we all can and do know, and not necessarily Jim only, right

--- I would say that I am with Michael Dylan Welch in this, inform the editor, though God knows, I would like the editor to know before the poem is out in print... and then let the sleeping dogs lie... there is only so much that one can do, and most of it is how one composes  one's own work. I assure you, I have done it once and the answer ensured me that it is one place I don't want to see my work published in. Yes.  We need to know what our principles are and never ever compromise on that front.


--- read all the essays in graceguts  on  Deja ku or ever otherwise

---read read read,  write write write, revise revise revise,  ask for an opinion when we can.

--- and may the Gods favour the honest and the brave. Amen

Anna,
I am referring to a novel that was published fairly recently using this technique.

I canabalize my poems as well.
Title: Re: Déjà ku or rip off - you decide !
Post by: Anna on December 16, 2016, 12:41:45 PM
   aaaaaah,  oh-kaaaay. Now I get it Lorraine. But novels are not the same as haiku, gendai haiku is new and therefore there are fewer chances of missing out an imitation or whatever...tell me do you ever feel that you have read a certain haiku elsewhere...why do you think that happens more often when we read haiku magazines and journals than we do in other forms of poetry?

yeah!  which is why haiku literacy is so very important.
Title: Re: Déjà ku or rip off -moving on to gendai haiku
Post by: Jennifer Sutherland on December 23, 2016, 06:54:11 AM
Hello Lorraine , Anna or anyone else who reads this,

I am by no means an expert in haiku however i know that "gendai" is just a label for so called modern haiku.
in Richard Gilbert's quote in the archives of this site, the following definition has been offered "Gendai haiku means literally 'modern or contemporary haiku' and loosely refers to expansive ideas of the haiku form arising from the 1920's on... etc"

http://www.thehaikufoundation.org/2009/06/20/gendai-haiku/

In all honesty much as I dearly love haiku much of what I read ( and write myself) seems to draw on the past more than the future.
Title: Re: Déjà ku or rip off - you decide !
Post by: Anna on December 24, 2016, 12:30:41 AM
Hi Jennifer, 


I too draw from the old, but being in this century and this moment and whatever is the current world,  I would call my haiku( when I do have the good luck of finding myself write haiku and not senryu...as my luck dictates and deems fit...) I think what I write is gendai as do so many others.
That itself is a radical statement, one the purists will balk at, maybe, maybe not...

It also leads me to add, that if we were to stick to the old old old tradition, then we would have to convert english into a tonal language, we would all need to understand a culture other than ours better than we understand our own cultures and then we would have to write and be appraised by the legends of haiku... Would Basho pat my head or jump into the old pool on reading my writes...hmmm


Merry Christmas and a Happy creative new year folks... this has been a good thread,  I have asked myself several of the questions and also felt like I was never involved in the happenings in the haiku land, this thread makes me more of a participant. No offences meant, ...my cultural upbringing makes it difficult for me to state things as they are at an individual level, and I have been pretty honest here. So there goes another brownie point for you Jennifer, cheers
Title: Re: Déjà ku or rip off - you decide !
Post by: Michael Dylan Welch on June 01, 2017, 02:07:49 PM
Just now seeing this thread, and thought I'd comment:

1. LeRoy's poem should say "Death's" (with an apostrophe) of course.

2. I see Mary Hind's poem as an independent creation. They share the "demanding candy" lines, and they both appear at the end, but this seems a common enough term for many people to use. A quick search online led me to this poem by Al Lane at https://altheauthor.wordpress.com/2016/10/31/halloween-haiku/ (it also appears at http://www.haikuniverse.com/halloween-haiku-21st-of-25-by-alistair-lane/):

Dark Halloween night
Ghosts and goblins roam the earth
Demanding candy

I'm sure others could be found without too much trouble.

3. I note that this thread asks if the later poem is a deja-ku OR a rip-off. Well, rip-offs are PART of the spectrum of what I've called deja-ku, so I'm not sure that "or" is accurate. On the other hand, I appreciate the implication that deja-ku can be positive as well as being a negative thing like a rip-off.

4. Jennifer Sutherland says "Should I ever have the misfortune to commit deja-ku." This statement suggests a serious misunderstanding of deja-ku. Deja-ku is not a pejorative. In fact, most kinds of deja-ku are GOOD, such as sharing the same subject (such as season words), homage, allusion, parody, and more. The "bad" kinds of deja-ku are greatly in the minority, and include overt plagiarism, accidental plagiarism (cryptomnesia), and excess similarity (this last one is the thorniest, because it's a subjective thing to define what constitutes "excess" -- and I don't consider the "demanding candy" poems to have excess similarity at all). Haiku succeeds because we as readers often SHARE the same experience that the poem talks about. So, as an extension of that, it's no wonder than many haiku write about similar experiences, and even in similar ways. There's a limit, of course, but until that limit is reached, shared topics and similar expressions should be celebrated -- and that's what I would do with these "demanding candy" poems. By "committing deja-ku," I hope we can assume that Jennifer Sutherland meant just the "bad" kinds of deja-ku, but I hope anyone reading this will NOT treat "deja-ku" as a pejorative term.

5. A comment on this statement, also by Jennifer: "I think haiku writers need to be aware of searching for our own unique voice and with every haiku we submit for publication, ask ourselves the question, have I read this before?" I agree, yes, that we should think about whether our poems, when we submit them for publication, might be too similar to others or not. But I also wouldn't want anyone to be paralyzed by this concern. Which takes me to the start of what Jennifer says here, about "searching for our own unique voice." I don't recommend that at all, nor do I see it as a virtue. Voice is something that HAPPENS to you by being natural with your writing. If you express your own truth, in your own way, your voice will (much of the time) end up being unique. But TRYING to be unique is a sure-fire way of creating inauthenticity and fakeness, if you ask me. In response to the Modernist dictum to "make it new," Jane Hirshfield has countered by saying "Make it yours" -- to be yourself. That's what really matters. Sure, there's a point where what you wrote while being yourself may have already been said, and said similarly, by someone else, and if you don't catch such instances, editors can help, and readers too -- and I too welcome such feedback. But the time to think about this is NOT when one is writing. Anyway, yes, as Anna said, a certain amount of "haiku literacy" is helpful -- to know the literature as best as possible, at least its high points -- but no one person can ever keep up with it all, so we can only do our best.

6. Thanks, all, for the good words on my deja-ku essays on Graceguts.com.

Michael