Hi Jack,
Quote from: Jacklack on August 10, 2015, 08:47:55 PM
Hi, Everyone!
I have always used the m dash, but I'm wondering about the use of the colon.
What I call visual punctuation or visual punctuation symbols i.e. , ; : - – ... and the period. These were more extensively used in 20th Century haiku, from quaint English-language attempts at translation or versioning Japanese-language haikai verses in classic times, to the longer, oft-5-7-5 haiku composed in English.
As you'll know Nick Virgilio enabled a lot of people to write haiku rather than 5-7-5 verse that was often hit and miss due to the syllable counting and overkill of visual punctuation aka VP or VPS, not to be confused with VPL :)
But of course there is nothing wrong, and everything right about bringing back normative techniques of VPS into haiku poetry, however incredibly brief the 'form' appears.
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Lately, I've found that I might use one or the other to achieve a different result... I started this thread thinking many people on the site have been writing longer than me, and might have a more ready defense for one or the other... or could articulate a preference. I suppose writing this thread is also making me work through what I think, haha.
The longer haiku certainly facilitated the use of VPS and required it, such as James Hackett and Mabson Southard etc...
As English-language haiku aka ELhaiku became even more minimalist than a 575 count, there appeared less of a need, but also more people had learnt to interpret all the white spaces in and around the shorter haiku.
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For me, the m dash is about immediate juxtaposition, or fragmentation, or further explanation of a second subject in line two that differs more distinctly from the first subject in line one--it also serves as the "cutting word" in English-language haiku in the same way an ellipse, !, comma, or colon does, too.
Does VPS equal kire? The cutting word aka kireji often set a tone, a mood, explained, perhaps the question mark (?) we often use in prose has some sort of aspect of this, and the exclamation mark (!) although both feel like shouting matches in very short haiku. :)
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Now the colon: I have only recently encountered the colon reading Nick Virgilio's work. It seems to me he is using the colon over the m dash to the same purpose as the m dash. I don't often see him employ the m dash, and it appears to me to be just a stylistic concern for that reason. I also often find the Japanese Masters (Basho, Issa, Buson, Shiki) are translated with an m dash, though I believe Nick Virgilio's body of work is as meritorious as the best of the Japanese Masters.
Nick Virgilio's work would be originally in English, whereas Basho, Issa, Buson, Shiki we would need to look at the original Japanese, or at least modern Japanese.
The m–dash was often an affectation, a fad, as was the ellipsis... or . . .
It wasn't always meant as VPS as in punctuation, but either purely visual or a deliberate attempt to slow down the reader. A close reader will know how and why to read a haiku, whether it's intended to be speed-read as some monostich haiku are, or slowed down reading, often the case with three-line haiku.
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In my own writing, I have not been consistent. With this thread I aim to change that. If I want to separate or provide a "cutting word" for a juxtaposition of images, I think, first, is my image drastically different, or similar? For example, I wrote a haiku comparing snowflakes to stars using the m dash:
the spider hanging
snowflakes from the eve--
Orion's Belt
Are you able to type the M–dash instead of two N-dashes together? I'm guessing you have a PC computer which doesn't easily allow that without multiple keystrokes and codes? With Mac computers it's two key strokes of Alt and the +/= tab.
I love:
the spider hanging
snowflakes from the eve
That's highly original, and I've read over a million or two haiku since 1993. :)
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Whereas, in a different haiku, when wanting to provide for that juxtaposition of images, but where the second image in mind functions almost like an explanation of the first, I would use a colon:
Mother's Day:
we wait at home
for our florist
The Mother's Day punctuation quite clearly states that this special day entailed waiting at home for the florist. What is intriguing is the use of the personal pronoun of 'our' which takes out any possible flatness of a cause and effect poem.
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What do you think? Do you prefer the m dash or colon? Is there a difference, or is it about style? Should we use them to different purposes? If editors are reading our haiku, what are they thinking when they see an m dash over a colon, or vice versa?
All best,
Jack
When you don't use a colon for the spider and snowflakes haiku the poem works:
the spider hanging
snowflakes from the eve–
Orion's Belt
Because you are not telling us that it's a direct comparison technique. It could be a spider's web iced over up high, and then you notice Orion's Belt.
An interesting topic to bring up, and I look forward to replies here, as well as new topics for discussion elsewhere.
Here's an earlier thread, and I've highlighted Don Baird's take on it:
Quote— For a break that is similar to hyphen, a sort of "that is" feeling; & or, general pause; still connective but not as much as ellipsis.
; For a greater disjunction
: For two parts that are very equal in balance ... two halves that make a whole ... but of equal strength ... and also for the greatest disjunction.
Don Baird
http://www.thehaikufoundation.org/forum_sm/index.php?topic=5486.0
Your post has me thinking again about using more VPS! :-)
warm regards,
Alan
ORIGINAL POST IN FULLQuote from: Jacklack on August 10, 2015, 08:47:55 PM
Hi, Everyone!
I have always used the m dash, but I'm wondering about the use of the colon.
Lately, I've found that I might use one or the other to achieve a different result... I started this thread thinking many people on the site have been writing longer than me, and might have a more ready defense for one or the other... or could articulate a preference. I suppose writing this thread is also making me work through what I think, haha.
For me, the m dash is about immediate juxtaposition, or fragmentation, or further explanation of a second subject in line two that differs more distinctly from the first subject in line one--it also serves as the "cutting word" in English-language haiku in the same way an ellipse, !, comma, or colon does, too.
Now the colon: I have only recently encountered the colon reading Nick Virgilio's work. It seems to me he is using the colon over the m dash to the same purpose as the m dash. I don't often see him employ the m dash, and it appears to me to be just a stylistic concern for that reason. I also often find the Japanese Masters (Basho, Issa, Buson, Shiki) are translated with an m dash, though I believe Nick Virgilio's body of work is as meritorious as the best of the Japanese Masters.
In my own writing, I have not been consistent. With this thread I aim to change that. If I want to separate or provide a "cutting word" for a juxtaposition of images, I think, first, is my image drastically different, or similar? For example, I wrote a haiku comparing snowflakes to stars using the m dash:
the spider hanging
snowflakes from the eve--
Orion's Belt
Whereas, in a different haiku, when wanting to provide for that juxtaposition of images, but where the second image in mind functions almost like an explanation of the first, I would use a colon:
Mother's Day:
we wait at home
for our florist
What do you think? Do you prefer the m dash or colon? Is there a difference, or is it about style? Should we use them to different purposes? If editors are reading our haiku, what are they thinking when they see an m dash over a colon, or vice versa?
All best,
Jack