Discussion from The Renku Sessions: Junicho verse #12 (April 2015) I thought it was an interesting accumulation of knowledge and ideas and was worth sharing more widely - Sandra Simpson
Christopher Patchel:
I'm curious now about narration and renku. Anyone know of any online articles/discussions about POV norms in renku?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narration
Paul MacNeil in reply:
Hi Chris, I do not have any renku quotes direct to hand. But, from what I've been taught a lot of variety in point of view is desired in renku. Speaking of kasen length now, Bill Higginson's reliance on the teaching of the late Master Higashi (inventor of the 20-verse renku) indicated to vary person, place, thing, or other... on no pattern of the variance. Bill and Tadashi Kondo gave a presentation on Higash's "rules" at HNA Chicago some years back. [It is at Bill's surviving website, too.] Not to have two in a row, though. "Person" refers to first person, second, and third. Spread them out in the renku.
The first person is a definite point of view — "I looked past the moon", or in the plural .. "we look at the moon", etc. From Grammar Girl on line: "In grammatical terms, first person, second person, and third person refer to personal pronouns. Each 'person' has a different perspective, a 'point of view,' and the three points of view have singular and plural forms as well as three case forms."
For me, Chris and all, what is difficult in or a defect of a haiku, the second person, can be achieved in renku. It is an address in haiku to use "you" but in renku it is a different point of view and is a varied thing. A lot of renku stanzas are just an omniscient observation — always assuming the writer has had or conceived the very experience. "You walked into the path of the moon." Third person, too, I suggest, is not and should be not be overly common in a renku, but variety is King. He she or it does something... "She stood there naked"... still has the writer as observer.
The non-pronoun is used a lot more. "The priest held a goblet up high." Also a profession or type of person (STILL observed by the writer, of course): "a carpenter has a pile of wood shavings". This too should be varied. A few of each of these is important. Bill's teaching was to also vary "place." A non-human verse, usually, "the river-side willow dipped into the current."
Perhaps associate with your question, is to not have narrative in the sense of a plot. Since we link BUT shift, the sense of any continuity beyond the two-verse linking pair is to be avoided. As the verses unfold, plotless, the great variety of possibilities can be experienced. Look at our poem so far . . . we have leaped wildly about from an ice-cream truck to Gaza to rainbow and daffodils. No plot. Hillary Tann calls this to leap nimbly.
A minor exception is the process through the season. In a kasen, spring and autumn can run for 3 verses. Each of the three should or might show progression: from first snowdrops (flower) to first leaf, to catching trout. Some can be "all season" too.
Closer to a plot, but should not be one, are the love verses. Two in junicho, but often three in kasen. And also in kasen length renku there are two sets of love verses. While all are adult human love, each one must not link to the leap-over verse, two back in other words. A love sequence might be from flirtation, to sex, to grief at a lover's grave. The second set of love verses should take a different tack from the first grouping.
In kasen length, too, there are 3 moon stanzas. Two generally are autumn, the other in some other season. All of the three should not be duplicate how the moon is portrayed. Vary the shape, color, rising or setting, shadow of the moon, etc. The two "blossom" verses should also be different one from another. Again Variety without Plot.
Do remember also that fiction is allowed in renku. I can write of the gargoyles at Notre Dame — never having been there. Personally I do not believe in fiction in haiku, though some theorists and practitioners of haiku disagree with me on that. To some, a "truth" can be conceived fictionally. All's fair in renku, though.
Well, I've rambled long enough . . . Complicated yet simple. – Paul
Alan Summers:
Paul MacNeil spoke well about narrative issues in renku, so I personally won't add to what he said.
There's been quite a wave of renku outside the 'haiku/renku community' by poets in different parts of the USA, as well as the famous one set up by Bob Holman and Jeff Koons (famous poet, famous artist) using Pink Floyd type arena transport to travel through the United States.
I myself have used the 1000 link senku which has brought astounding results, particularly in the North of England (UK).
Aspects of Broken Narrative and Unresolved Narrative can play a part in renku, and we cannot expect national and international poets and writers outside of the 'haikai' community to keep to the non-linear narrative patterns that we strive so hard to do.
Also novelists like Paul Curran have teamed up with visual artists to create disintegrated narratives, mostly about body disorders, consciously or unconsciously taking from the popular renga/renku projects outside haiku/renku communities.
Perhaps we do micro-broken narratives, but with less of a connection than in the famous Pulp Fiction model.
Renku certainly seems to be anti-hero(ine)'s journey, where we do our mightiest to avoid story, sometimes even avoiding touching on molecular level mini-stories.
I didn't realise that Basho liked to have around a lot of rough trade, gangsters, etc... but that revelation makes sense to me in the light of renku. :-)
He would have wanted to cram in as many fictive and faction, and fictional tales into an evening or day/night long sake sipping events as possible.
Long Viking length epics, well, they'd take weeks and months, with enormous alcohol hangovers. So renku make an odd sense to me. :-)
(with more to come when I have time to transfer the comments, gotta dash) ....
Paul MacNeil
In Reply to Chris Patchel's questions and search. My comments follow each published renku stanza. Not all of what I excerpted meets the quest, I am sure. I hope to foster some more questions . . .
Forgive the length.
Since I was a member of these different groups, I feel free to quote verses here.
You can read each whole renku, and many others, at the Haiku Society of America Website, under "haiku collections" The Einbond Renku Contests ... Winning results by year. Note: often the judges' comments are very informative.
http://www.hsa-haiku.org/haikucollections.htm
***
From kasen renku: Warmth of Rail, HSA Einbond Contest 2014, at HSA website. By John Stevenson, Paul MacNeil, Hilary Tann, Yu Chang, Tom Clausen, written live, in person
***
is undying affection
enough to court
my sweetie?
- Paul
OK, it's first person and interrogative but it is about indefinite things, not observed. Might be a stretch, but?
***
[same citation]
a plume of smoke
that appears to be the moon's
visible breath
- John
the writer's mind, a simile of the indefinite. Might qualify as omniscient?
***
[same]
It's a bird!
It's a plane!
- Hilary
Hilary quotes from the old Superman fictional movies and shows. Comic book, too.
***
[same]
an E.T. fossil
from the Antarctic
core sample
- Hilary
3rd person, and Fictional. Hilary's imagination in 3rd person, omniscient and indefinite.
***
[same]
hopes arising from
the vernal equinox
- John
Certainly no way "hopes" can be literal. This is a good example, I think, of what Chris is looking for.
***
kasen renku: Stolen Pearls, Einbond 2012 at HSA website, written on-line: Ron Moss, Paul MacNeil, Matthew Paul, Ferris Gilli
dreams and snake eyes
mingling
in the witch's mortar
- Ferris
Imagination, indefinite point of view. Ferris hints at Shakespeare's Hamlet.
***
[same citation]
when she unlaces her bodice
the stolen pearls drop out
- Ferris
Ferris has a wonderful imagination, indefinite third person.
***
[same]
could that be sweat
dripping from the Man
in the Moon?
- Paul
Omniscient question, pure fancy.
***
kasen renku: The Smell of Earth, Einbond 2008, via internet, Peggy Willis Lyles, Ferris Gilli, Paul MacNeil
***
could I conceive
in the eye of the storm?
- Ferris
let's imagine
this magnetic tape
is your DNA
- Peggy
These two together in the renku. Ferris' is in first person, but is musing, wondering. Might not meet the definition, but? Peggy's as phrased is in the first person plural, but she asks about imagination, from her own imagination.
***
[same]
two by two
the Merry Men
greet the Queen of May
- Peggy
I doubt if Peggy meant an actual event, rather, 3rd person from her imagination. She didn't meet Robin Hood except on the page or screen.
***
[same]
undertow at this beach
in Zanzibar
- Paul
The very quality of being made up had me include this one. Written to use the wonderful music of Zanzibar. I've never been there, only in my imagination
***
[same]
indubitably
Sherlock shows me
the crucial clue
- Paul
I am reading a novel — the fiction affects my mind. Does this stretch the definition as first person omniscience?
***
nijuin renku: A Glass of Red, Einbond 2008, written live, in person by John Stevenson Hilary Tann, Paul MacNeil, Yu Chang
***
small town stories
often have a touch
of irony
- js
[same]
Dorothy returns
to Kansas
- yc
these two verses are tangent in the renku. John's seems a clear example of omniscience. Yu replies with reference to the fictional book and movie: The Wizard of Oz.
***
kasen renku: Soft Voices, Einbond 2004, via internet by Peggy Willis Lyles, Ferris Gilli, Paul MacNeil
***
all these years apart
and still memories
of a French perfume
- Paul MacNeil
memories perhaps a dream, but the sense of smell triggers the past. [This also happens to be true from my life]
***
kasen renku: Picking Our Way, Einbond 2004, written live, in person by Yu Chang, Paul MacNeil, Hilary Tann, John Stevenson
***
a Navajo
wins the chess tournament
in Kobe
-Yu
Yu's lines are total fiction and from across the world.
***
[same]
Picasso's bicycle
becomes a bull
- Paul
This is an actual welded sculpture. Handlebars are the horns; bicycle seat is the head/face of the bull. As one looks at it, one thing "becomes" another. Of the mind and not literal.
***
[same]
"I'll drink to that"
(exeunt)
- Hilary
Hilary is quoting a line from a play, fiction, with stage direction. Meet the definition?
***
[same]
remembrance
of a touch given
without strings
-Paul
Remembrance itself is not a literal observation, but of the writer's mind, memory or dream?
***
kasen renku: Snowball Snow, Einbond 2001, via internet by Ferris Gilli, Peggy Willis Lyles, Paul MacNeil
***
Khalil Gibran glares
from the book's cover
- pm
how many times
have those dark eyes
spoken my name
- pwl
these two verses are tangent in the renku. Long dead, the poet doesn't glare, but may seem to, omniscient point of view. Peggy's verse, though first person, is also about wondering, daydreaming in a way. Included to stretch the definition of 1st omniscient.
***
[same]
why did that masked stranger
leave a silver bullet?
- pm
this is a reference to the fictional movies and TV shows — The Lone Ranger
***
[same]
echoes of the battering ram
on the portcullis
- fg
Ferris' verse is totally fiction of a battle siege in the Middle Ages, certainly an omniscient point of view
***
[same]
ecology
is an ancient science,
true or false?
- pwl
An odd verse from Peggy. No person asks the question, and nothing is tangible, Omniscient?
Christopher Patchel:
Hi Paul,
Fun verses all. The narrators are all mortal though (however fictional) rather than all-knowing.
http://fictionwriting.about.com/od/glossary/g/omniscient.htm
Paul MacNeil:
How about, just composed:
looking down
the Gods on Olympus
are not pleased
- Paul
or
the Gods on Olympus
look down
and are not pleased
???
Or Chris, quote the Bible in God's voice?
And God said
"In the beginning . . ."
– Paul
Christopher Patchel
The Gods on Olympus might qualify, Paul. Barring a movie I can't think of a narrator who could be privy to that scene.
.
behind enemy lines
he waits for nightfall
.
I'd still like to find a published renku example, and a renga example if any exist.
Christopher Patchel:
Thanks Paul and Alan.
.
I was mostly wondering about third person omniscient (observations no observer could possibly know, like what someone was dreaming, say). I searched for about an hour and was surprised that I couldn't find any examples. (The penultimate verse here is a near-example, though it could be via tv or internet).
Alan Summers:
Well, I'm guessing most renku verses are like renga ones, mostly fictive.
.
I was astonished to hear that Basho mixed so much with the underbelly of society, go dude! :-)
So gangsters (medieval equivalent, always been around) would be omniscient or want to appear so, in the drinking games with renku that they did with him.
.
So do you think there's an omniscient voice in a number of these verses?
.
If they were based on actual direct experience would we be reaching for our devices and calling 911? That's always a good test.
Christopher Patchel:
Links that are fictional, fanciful, historical (maybe even futuristic?), where the authors of the verses are not the observers/narrators– yes, for sure. But omniscient narrative is different:
.
"is this a dream"
the Mannequin wonders
.
the Loch Ness monster's
hunger pangs
In other words, if this narrator (not necessarily the author) is someone who is somehow privy to this scene, via internet say, then it's third person narrative. If not, then it's third person omniscient:
**
halfway across the world
a skein of clouds halfway
across the moon
- Michael Henry Lee
**
Either way, I'm curious if there are other renga/renku verses that are decidedly third person omniscient. So far I haven't found any.
Alan Summers:
Sounds like a great project in itself. I certainly feel that renku can be open enough too.
Lorin Ford:
"I was mostly wondering about third person omniscient (observations no observer could possibly know, like what someone was dreaming, say). I searched for about an hour and was surprised that I couldn't find any examples. (The penultimate verse here is a near-example, though it could be via tv or internet)." – Chris
***
halfway across the world
a skein of clouds halfway
across the moon
– Michael Henry Lee
***
I'm very late to this discussion, Chris, Paul and Alan, and though I think I read all of the pertinent comments, I might've missed something. I want to put in my late 2 cents worth because I'm at a loss to see why this verse might prompt musings on 3rd person narrative, omniscient or otherwise, or be a "near-example" of a 3rd person omniscient narrative.
1st person narrative is the 'default' mode for EL haiku when person isn't specified. As I read the verse it's plainly 1st person narrative. Putting myself in Michael's place as narrator, I'm on a night flight with a window seat, on a very real aeroplane. Or I might be on a ship. The view of the moon & skeins of cloud (or even birds, as in the original) is very real to me from a first person narrative, as sunrise from that perspective is, also. Has no-one seen the moon or the sun and clouds (or night-lying birds) from a plane?
The verse itself is of a real scene from the real perspective of a traveller on his way to somewhere far from his homeland.
Beyond that, the verse calls back to my mind the opening lines of Basho's variously translated Narrow Road to the Far North. There were no planes in Basho's time of course, but he covered just about everything else. :-)
"Days and months are travellers of eternity. So are the years that pass by. Those who steer a boat across the sea, or drive a horse over the earth till they succumb to the weight of years, spend every minute of their lives travelling." – trans. Nobuyuki Yuasa
"Moon and sun are passing figures of countless generations, and years coming or going wanderers too. Drifting life away on a boat or meeting age leading a horse by the mouth, each day is a journey and the journey itself home." – trans. Cid Corman and Kamaike Susumu
...and 7 more translations, here:
http://www.bopsecrets.org/gateway/passages/basho-oku.htm
'Vertical axis, anyone?' Sandra suggested that a 'travel' verse might suit this verse spot, and I'd say this verse fulfills that request ...and more!
– Lorin
My typos! I need a new keyboard!
One corrected sentence:
The view of the moon & skeins of cloud (or even birds, as in the original) is very real to me from a first person narrative point of view, as sunrise from that perspective is, also. Has no-one seen the moon or the sun and clouds (or night-flying birds) from a plane?
::)
...and to clarify how I read this verse:
(I am)halfway across the world
a skein of clouds (is) halfway
across the moon
– Michael Henry Lee
Thanks Lorin. A first-person reading of that verse just didn't occur to me.
Here's my own conclusion about omniscient POV in renga/renku, for what it's worth:
The desire for immediacy in haikai writing (present tense, 5 senses etc.) precludes the omniscient voice from being effective because it distances the reader—prevents us from experiencing a verse for ourselves as immediate observers (since we can't read minds, see the unseeable, know the unknowable).
So even if I do find published examples of omniscient narrative in renku I'm likely to object to them.
Why doesn't the fictional/fantastical in renku similarly distance the reader? I don't know but it doesn't (for me anyway). The imagination easily bridges that gap.
This is the renku verse closest to omniscient POV that I've come across thus far:
in his hymnbook
the choirboy scribbles
secret notes
-Gerald England
But a nearby observer could possibly discern this without knowing what the secrets are.
Quote from: Chris Patchel on April 30, 2015, 10:06:41 AM
Thanks Lorin. A first-person reading of that verse just didn't occur to me.
So you read it as the skein of clouds being both halfway across the world and halfway across the moon, Chris? 8)
Here's the true story of my beginnings in haiku, the first time I actually took any notice of it, back in 2004.
Carla Sari, a Melbourne poet, read out a haiku by someone else and a haiku of her own at a workshop. Her own:
back from the war
the tap he couldn't fix
still dripping
- Carla Sari
2nd Prize, Jack Stamm Contest, 2003
http://members.optusnet.com.au/paperwasp/jackstamm2003.html
I didn't know about the contest or the publication, both in a print anthology and on the
paper wasp website I thought the haiku was being offered for work-shopping c & c. What I said:
"Ya can't have that! It reads as if it's the
tap that's back from the war. It needs rephrasing!" :-[
That's when I was told, patiently & kindly, that person is often implied in haiku rather than stated.
Later, after reading many, I realised this was the case and that this 'haiku convention' seems to be an adaptation of the tendency (or perceived tendency ... I am definitely no expert on either the Japanese language or Japanese culture) of Japanese people not to use person much (especially 1st person) in their everyday speech.
(ps, just in case: USA Eng. 'faucet' = Eng. 'tap')
- Lorin
Lorin:
The clouds and moon halfway across the world from the narrator is how I read it, yes. I assume many read it that way (especially with breaks verboten) since no one else said otherwise.
I remember that story of your introduction to haiku : )